Dragon Fogel
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Aumtlich 1W: Ah, how silly of me. I didn't account for freezing aumtlich ahead of time! I found it tight because I didn't do that. This is something I'll need to find a way to patch up.

The other two look fine. You did something I didn't think of in 1W by getting the guard to kill the construct over near the roach; I lured the construct there later. This is really just a better way of executing the solution than what I did, though, so I've got no problem with it.

---

[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-20-2025 09:05 PM]

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Finally came up with something for Fluff 1W. I also patched up the unintended solution in Aumtlich 1W.

So now I just need someone other than me to solve all the rooms, which Red XIII is making good progress on. It would be nice if anyone else can play through and give feedback, of course.

---

[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-21-2025 07:18 PM]

LovaP48
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
Should be heading to sleep, but I wanted to post the new version first in case anyone wants to look at it.

Fixed the Guards 1E break mentioned above by adding some walls and fixed another break by replacing the seeding beacon with another guard.

Also, Red XIII said he tried his unpleasant solution to Tarstuff: Entrance because there was so much fluff, so I've shrunk the blob. Also added sword tokens on black doors to hopefully make cleanup easier.

In addition, I finally had an idea for making Aumtlich 1W trickier. I like this better than what I had, but the timing might be just a little too tight. I'd appreciate thoughts on that.

So now I'm just hoping to figure something out for Fluff 1W and to give Red XIII hints on the rooms he hasn't solved yet.

I downloaded the hold from the message above (if that's not the correct one, which one is the proper one @DragonFogel?)
I'll try to solve some and provide feedback before heading to bed.

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LovaP48 wrote:
I downloaded the hold from the message above (if that's not the correct one, which one is the proper one @DragonFogel?)
I'll try to solve some and provide feedback before heading to bed.

The version of that post seems the same of the older one. The version of the first post is the most recent one.
I suggest to keep the latest version only in the first post.

Aumtlich 1W: I think this is intended now. The timer is tight, but not too tight I think. Then again, I played this room so much that I'm not sure I can be objective.

Fluff 1W: I think I see what you went for, but for now this is broken.

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There's just this one, just this rock.
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This should fix that break in Fluff 1W.

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LovaP48 wrote:
I downloaded the hold from the message above (if that's not the correct one, which one is the proper one @DragonFogel?)
I'll try to solve some and provide feedback before heading to bed.

That one's from yesterday. Either download from the first post in the thread, or look at the latest. Maybe you didn't see the second page of posts.

I edited in a note to the first post saying the attached version is always up to date, but maybe I should make that more prominent.

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Somehow, some arrow connections broke when I was editing Fluff 1W and that made it unsolvable in the previous download. It should be fixed now.

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I think I had the correct version for the first three levels, which is what I managed. Here are my comments and I'm getting my sleep.

First Level:

Constructs:

Aumtlich:

Demos are attached.

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I didn't remember the solution to Aumtlich 1N when I ran through this and I caught myself with it. Evidently it's sneakier than I thought when I made it!

Hint:



Edit: Looked over the demos, everything looks fine.

---

[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-22-2025 12:10 AM]

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Dragon Fogel wrote:
I didn't remember the solution to Aumtlich 1N when I ran through this and I caught myself with it. Evidently it's sneakier than I thought when I made it!

That it was, but so clever!

I solved the next three levels, with the exception of Potions, 1 North and Fegundos, 1 East.
The former I think I am close, but didn't find the right method yet.
In the latter, I'm completely lost and confused.
Here are my notes:

Fluff:

Fegundos:

Potions and Mimics:

Demos are attached (the file probably has the first three levels of demos too...)

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Uh, so an important door connection broke in Fluff 1W. I don't know how. You missed what was supposed to be the puzzle because of it. Fixed now.

As for Fluff 1E, there's a cleaner solution that is deducible - I had to reconstruct it because I didn't remember it when I first tested this. But doing so is pretty tough.
As it happens, the cleaner solution delays growth for one more turn than the setup in this demo - so I've made the corridor one tile longer. That might not totally enforce the intended solution, but it will at least make messier accidental solutions like this a little bit harder to find.

Fegundo 1E: Okay, the second fegundo is probably just making this more confusing. Still, before I try to redesign that part, I'll give one hint.



Potions 1N1W: Dang it. That is a total break. You're supposed to have to engage with more than one of the potions. It makes me laugh, and it clearly takes thought about which eyes to activate, but it's not what the room's supposed to be about.
Still, it's obviously not free. Maybe rather than trying to block this solution, I'll just make it a challenge not to pick up the invisibility potion until all the doors are open.
For now, I'll just request that you try it again without doing this, maybe you can help me make up my mind on whether to directly prevent it or just add a challenge.

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EDIT: Attached the file with demos. Whoops, I forgot!

Dragon Fogel wrote:
Uh, so an important door connection broke in Fluff 1W. I don't know how. You missed what was supposed to be the puzzle because of it. Fixed now.

Aha, I see. Nice, I was wondering why you needed four kegs, when two or so would have proven the point previously...

Dragon Fogel wrote:
As for Fluff 1E, there's a cleaner solution that is deducible - I had to reconstruct it because I didn't remember it when I first tested this. But doing so is pretty tough.
As it happens, the cleaner solution delays growth for one more turn than the setup in this demo - so I've made the corridor one tile longer. That might not totally enforce the intended solution, but it will at least make messier accidental solutions like this a little bit harder to find.

I tried to shuffle around a bit, but I'm not seeing anything that's particularly useful nor "pretty" or "deducible", I'm afraid...
I was trying to block three sides and then have puffs clear the top side briefly as they come down, but I couldn't make it work well enough.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
Fegundo 1E: Okay, the second fegundo is probably just making this more confusing. Still, before I try to redesign that part, I'll give one hint.

Click here to view the secret text

×There's exactly one tile the second fegundo can get next to which is not a pit or a wall.

Some things I dislike about the room:

As for your hint, do you mean the gentryii head and water+ice? Uh, yea, it can get next to that, and? That doesn't seem to disrupt anything, c.f. my second frustration.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
Potions 1N1W: Dang it. That is a total break. You're supposed to have to engage with more than one of the potions. It makes me laugh, and it clearly takes thought about which eyes to activate, but it's not what the room's supposed to be about.
Still, it's obviously not free. Maybe rather than trying to block this solution, I'll just make it a challenge not to pick up the invisibility potion until all the doors are open.
For now, I'll just request that you try it again without doing this, maybe you can help me make up my mind on whether to directly prevent it or just add a challenge.

I can almost make it work with a nice timeclone dance, except I need HIM later on for one of the roaches that I can't manage in my temporal recording... See one of the attached demos.
I did manage to conquer the room with clone+speed, see another demo, although personally, this one feels even more like a roombreaker than my invisibility potion strategy
In fact, as I'm putting to words what I did, I managed to do what I just did with the clone potion only - so much for your "want more than one engaged potion"...
If you meant something else entirely, not sure what.

Also some small hint for Potions, 1 North, please?

---

[Last edited by LovaP48 at 01-22-2025 09:23 PM]

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Fluff 1E hint:



Fegundo 1E:

Okay, I guess you're struggling because you don't know the actual rules for which target gets chosen when there are multiple possibilities.

The first measure is Chebyschev distance (I may be spelling that wrong) - that is, just the number of tiles. The monster responds to the closest target by the number of tiles between them.
If that's a tie, then Euclidean distance is the second measure. An easy example of this is that an orthogonally aligned target will be chosen over a diagonally aligned one.
If the Euclidean distance is also a tie, the deciding factor is move order. The potential target with the highest move order is selected.

Maybe that's a sign this room is too dependent on that knowledge, but now you have it so maybe that will help you.

Also, just to be clear:



Potions and Mimics 1N hint:

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 01-22-2025 09:29 PM]

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Okay, after looking at the Potions and Mimics 1N1W demos, I'm thinking I should just leave it as is and let people clear it with whatever shenanigans and it's just a room you can mess around with. (For the record, my own method was speed potion, clone, and a timeclone just standing in place on the token for a while.) There are a lot of cool ways to do the room and I think it would work best to let players discover them.

Also! I just realized that one problem you're having with Fegundo 1E is that I was careless when decorating the level with obstacles. That's on me. This version corrects that problem.

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Thanks for the lesson on puffs, I didn't know these specifics.
Fegundos, 1 East:


Fluff, 1 East:


Potions, 1 North:


Potions, 1 North, 1 West:


Brains, Entrance:


Sidenote: Check your staircase links - "previous level" from Fegundos leads you to Constructs, instead of Fluff, for example.

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I was sure I had fixed the staircases when I rearranged the levels, but apparently some changes didn't take. Taking note and I'll look at the demos and make other adjustments as needed.

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Alright, I did some more solving tonight, I think I got pretty lucky to solve the brain ones, but eh, I guess some luck counts too

Brains, 1 West:


Brains, 1 South:


Brains, 1 East:


Sidenote: Why is the "next level" staircase in the Brain level bigger?

Guards, Entrance:


Guards, 1 East:


Guards, 1 South:


Guards, 1 North:


Demos are attached.

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Took me a bit to look at the demos.

Your solution to Fluff 1E made me realize there's another option. In fact, this one takes two turns longer to reach the plate!



That's the one thing I need to think about. This room is pretty tricky and finding a pattern isn't very obvious - even the one above, while fairly simple, is one of a dozen or so "simple" patterns and most of them don't work, so it's looking for a needle in a haystack. So maybe I just accept that the cool and tricky solution I found isn't unique and is probably unreasonable to try to enforce. But I'll give it some more thought before settling on that.

Your other solutions that are different from mine are in relatively complex open-ended rooms, and you're using the same ideas as my solutions so I don't see anything that needs patching up.

I'm going to update this in the morning when I feel like adding lighting to Brains 1E. It'll just be minor tweaks, so feel free to keep testing on your current version if it's not up by the time you're ready to play.

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Okay, so further comments on the demos, before I forget.

Brains 1S:



Guards 1S:



Anyways, I implemented minor tweaks. All the solutions from the previous demo still work.

-The return staircase in the fegundo level now goes to the fluff level.
-Moved the eastern fegundo area in Fegundo 1E over by one tile so it can never tie with the waterskipper nest and confuse players who don't know the fluff targeting rules.
-Added lighting to Brains 1E to show which plate corresponds to which door and firetrap. The room is also darker so the lighting shows up better.

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Okay, decisions I'm still trying to make. I welcome any thoughts anyone has on these.

-Enforcing my solution to Fluff 1E is probably more trouble than it's worth. I'm wondering if I should just make it a challenge. If I did then it would probably be phrased as something like this:

This might not enforce my approach specifically, but I feel that any unintended solutions which meet those conditions are at least going to be about as tricky.

-Two testers have gone right for a harder solution to Guards 1S than it actually needs. I realized I could enforce that solution with a simple change to the room, and I'm wondering if I should.

-Is Giants 1W without using the "one free kill" plate reasonable as a scripted challenge, or should I just leave it as "this is something you can do". The difference basically only matters to people who care about having the hold record that they did all the challenges, but I don't want them to feel pressured to do it if it's unreasonable.

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Dragon Fogel wrote:
Enforcing my solution to Fluff 1E is probably more trouble than it's worth. I'm wondering if I should just make it a challenge. If I did then it would probably be phrased as something like this:

Click here to view the secret text

×-Have exactly two puffs free when entering the final corridor.

This might not enforce my approach specifically, but I feel that any unintended solutions which meet those conditions are at least going to be about as tricky.

Before I even dive into solving, yes, I think by now that sounds like challenge territory.
At least now I have some more direction as to what you're trying to make me do, with the challenge text.

Well, I do have briar growing in a rotationally symmetric way and puff placement is very intentional, but I'm still not sure whether this is what was asked for.
The demos contain two solutions that amount to the same result, one of them isn't fully symmetric and I thought it'd yield more time, but it didn't.
If this is still not what you wanted and it can be done better, I think the challenge will need some further hints/directions. (Or at least I will...)

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-The return staircase in the fegundo level now goes to the fluff level.

Indeed it does now.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Moved the eastern fegundo area in Fegundo 1E over by one tile so it can never tie with the waterskipper nest and confuse players who don't know the fluff targeting rules.

Now I think the room is great, confirming to the player

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Added lighting to Brains 1E to show which plate corresponds to which door and firetrap. The room is also darker so the lighting shows up better.

Looks very neat and clear now!

Dragon Fogel wrote:
Guards 1S:

Click here to view the secret text

×You and Red XIII both overcomplicated this room in the exact same way. You don't need to kill the guard with a puff, if you push him into the water when he's facing the right way, he stabs the seep and dies. Now I'm wondering if I should make it a challenge to kill him with a puff.

Alternatively, I guess I could enforce a puff kill. All it would take is a mirror on a pressure plate in place of the seep, so the guard has to remove the mirror, step on the plate, and die. I guess it depends on if just pushing him into the water feels too simple.

Huh... That technique is still so "rare" to me that I don't tend to think about it.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Two testers have gone right for a harder solution to Guards 1S than it actually needs. I realized I could enforce that solution with a simple change to the room, and I'm wondering if I should.

Well, that indeed was an easier solution.
You say that you could enforce the "kill guard with a puff" solution, think you could set up the room in a way that the player can choose to do either or?
As in, if the player wants to do the drowning route, he can, and if he wants to do the puff way, then that can be done too with the full contraption.

Guards, 1 West:


Guards, 1 North:


Giants, Entrance:


Giants, 1 South:


Giants, 1 West:


Giants, 1 North:


Giants, 1 North, 1 West:


Tarstuff, Entrance:

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Okay, looked over these demos.

Fluff 1E:


Guards 1W hint:



Giants 1N:



Everything else is done as intended. I'll script the Fluff 1E challenge tomorrow, haven't made up my mind on the other stuff.

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Scripted the challenge for Fluff 1E. The way I set it up, you can do it after the room is clear, since it doesn't really make a difference.

Also made a small fix to Giants 1N.


For Guards 1S, the version you can solve either way is the version that's currently in the hold. It just struck me that enforcing it to require a puff kill on the guard would be pretty simple.

Maybe I'll just do that next version and script the Giants 1W challenge and see if I get any feedback that suggests I shouldn't do either of those things.

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Dragon Fogel wrote:
Maybe I'll just do that next version and script the Giants 1W challenge and see if I get any feedback that suggests I shouldn't do either of those things.

This is the version where I did that.

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I read the feedback and some hints both from you and LovaP48 (and watched some demos), and tried again some of the rooms where I was completely stuck.

Fegundo 1E: I had no idea that I needed to do that, I guess the fault is on me for assuming that the stalwart setup was not related to the room. The gentryii mechanism can confuse a bit, but I don't see another way to enforce the intended solution.

Giants 1N: heh, I broke it again after your modification! My original solution is still valid, but so is this other one.

Giants 1W: So, first I think it would be useful to distinguish the floors, as in, on floor X the golem will go after you, on floor Y the golems will go after the decoy. The separation line can be the edge of the box (for example). The challenge is probably really really fiddly, I don't know how it can be received, but definitely not fun. However, you could try something: in my attempt demo (starting from move 447), if I were on a east facing tunnel and could move east to another tunnel, the golem manipulation would be easier. If I attract some golems, I cannot move back to where I was to make them go after the decoy immediately, with a tunnel I could, and that could make things easier, I think. I'm not sure how the single firetrap helps. I think the key here is to find a magic sequence that lure the golems in a specific position, then let them go after the decoy and go in to the right position.

Fluff 1E: I had to watch the demos to figure it out. Not even in the editor I managed to solve it, meaning, finding the right shape of the fluff by manually placing fluff. Definitely the hardest room of the hold.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

---

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 01-27-2025 09:52 PM]

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Fixed the above break to Giants 1N. There are also different floor types in Giants 1W to help you see where the decoy's range is and where you definitively will not attract enemies. I also widened the lower side of the room slightly for convenience.

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Broke it again
Though, it was not that trivial.

____________________________
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There's just this one, just this rock.
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Guards, 1 West:


Guards, 1 South:


Giants, 1 North:


Tarstuff, 1 West:


Tarstuff, 1 South, 1 West:


Tarstuff, 1 South:


Tarstuff, 1 East:


Tarstuff, 1 South, 1 East:


Other, 1 North:


Other, Entrance:


Other, 1 South:


And that's it then, I think.
Very nice rooms, some of which are very very tricky. Just as advertised.

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LovaP48 wrote:
Tarstuff, 1 East:

Click here to view the secret text

×
Fairly easy.
Failed it the first time, because I had the decoy facing south and that's not a direction you could solve the room with.

Haven't looked at the demos yet, I just wanted to note that point.

LovaP48
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Dragon Fogel wrote:

LovaP48 wrote:
Tarstuff, 1 East:

Click here to view the secret text

×
Fairly easy.
Failed it the first time, because I had the decoy facing south and that's not a direction you could solve the room with.

Click here to view the secret text

×Actually, it is! It's just quite a bit trickier. But I solved it that way, even before adding the sword token. Maybe I should make it a challenge.

Haven't looked at the demos yet, I just wanted to note that point.

You're right...
But yeah, that sounds like a possible challenge for the wickedly smart people of the Forum.