azb
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File: Journey to the Fabled Kingdom Level 10 Fixed.hold (713.6 KB)
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Hello everyone,

I decided to discontinue my 210 Levels of Terror projects given it was nothing more than just a literal retelling of the DROD canon word for word and ripping off the level names from other games directly with no actual creativity of my own to it,

And instead decided to focus on making a decent 25 level hold that has my own story to it. It is inspired by JtRH, but it doesn't rip off JtRH word for word and has 3.0 thru 5.0 era elements in it, so there are things like Arky or the Gentryii, and Arky is the major antangonist of this hold trying to prevent you from reaching my version of the Empire here rather than 39th Slayer like the original JtRH.

The idea for each level is:

* Level 1 introduces roaches, tunnels, orbs and yellow doors, force arrows, pressure plates of all 3 types, broken and secret walls, and disabling force arrows.

* Level 2 introduces roach queens, using Halph as a game mechanic, arrow rotator tokens, and Gentryii

* Level 3 introduces evil eyes, Slayers, hot tiles, disarm tokens, and the staff

* Level 4 introduces mimics, trapdoors and red doors, briar, and sister doors of every door except for black doors which will come later

* Level 5 introduces wraithwings, wubbas, fegundoes and the power token, and thin ice

* Level 6 introduces rock golems, mirrors, and spears

* Level 7 introduces serpents, invisibility potions, adders, conquer tokens, and puffs (but no fluff or vents yet)

* Level 8 introduces tar but no mothers yet, orthosquares, platforms over pits, and seeding beacons

* Level 9 introduces guards, playing as a disguised role, and floor spikes

* Level 10 introduces spiders, black doors and sister black doors, water skippers and nests, bridges, and the pickaxe

* Level 11 introduces vision tokens, bombs and fuses, and powder kegs

* Level 12 introduces tar mothers, citizens and relay stations, and temporal split tokens

* Level 13 introduces goblins, clone potions, and the dagger

* Level 14 introduces mud and mud mothers, sentries from TCB Torture Chamber, and the Temporal Aumtlich

* Level 15 introduces squad horns, oremites, and the Temporal Resonator Crystal

* Level 16 introduces rattlesnakes, gel and gel mothers, shallow water, and the caber

* Level 17 introduces seep, speed potions, and the ROUS

* Level 18 introduces step-to-kill player roles, decoys, and fire traps

* Level 19 introduces brains, the Aumtlich, and Constructs

* Level 20 introduces tar-mud switch tokens and tar and mud in the same room, Stalwarts, and the living Obstacles from KDD First Level Revisited

* Level 21 introduces Rock Giants, and has a lot of brained hordes and bomb mazes in it, and also introduces thin ice over shallow water

* Level 22 introduces gel switch tokens, Flowers, and squad horns

* Level 23 introduces builders and engineers, as well as darts and the dart cannon

* Level 24 introduces a Patron who orders the builders around cause Halph is in his JtRH era phase in this hold and isn't working for the DAA yet, as well as the Raygun

* Level 25 is a fight against 1st Archivist (not Arky!) 'Neather style, and introduces broken and cracked orbs and the Living Walls that make the game impossible to win if stabbed.

So far the first ten levels are complete, feel free to let me know how they play, the aesthetics of them and the story; there is exactly one challenge so far as well as a handful of secrets, some with puzzles you solve and some just for story.

Feel free to let me know if you guys can think of any challenges for any rooms.

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---

[Last edited by azb at 12-10-2024 07:06 PM : Fixed levels 6 thru 9]

azb
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I have also finished level 2, and note the room that introduces the arrow rotator tokens is intentionally easy and isn't something like TCB Uncturage proper, just because it's in theme with the other rooms nearby being about the same difficulty this early in the hold.

I won't publish it however until after level 1 is finished and commented on in detail.

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azb
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I finished level 3 as well, and note it is going to be harder than levels 1 and 2 just like in the original JtRH, but I will stop for now because I have personal errands to attend to as well as I need to stop and think of good ideas for level 4 first.

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azb
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Level 4 is finished now too, and it's just like the JtRH layout except for the fact it introduces mimics early as well as the fact it introduces briar and sister doors, which didn't exist in the JtRH era.

Again, this is only me working on levels cause I have the ideas planned clearly, I won't actually publish any levels after the first level until I get feedback on it so that way I can make everything high quality.

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averagemoe
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Funny you should mention the Living Walls mechanic. For a while, I've been outlining a build for an Entry Point style hold, and was planning to do something like that. Except instead of being a custom element, I would basically have it be the level that introduces bombs, but not fuses.

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kieranmillar
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azb wrote:
I won't actually publish any levels after the first level until I get feedback on it so that way I can make everything high quality.

To be honest I've never really understood the logic behind why you do this. Why not just put it out there once it's ready? People are capable of giving feedback on more than one level at a time.

azb
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I thought so that I didn't overwhelm people by spamming too many levels at once for no reason, but I suppose if it's a traditional JtRH style hold and not a sprawling 2000+ room/level epic, then it's silly for me to publish it only in very small chunks.

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azb
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averagemoe wrote:
Funny you should mention the Living Walls mechanic. For a while, I've been outlining a build for an Entry Point style hold, and was planning to do something like that. Except instead of being a custom element, I would basically have it be the level that introduces bombs, but not fuses.

I already have bombs without fuses as a major theme planned for level 21 (referencing the original JtRH level 21), so I figured I should use it just because it's something from the original TSS hold that you need to deal with to actually finish the hold (you need to solve the puzzle whether you get the good or bad ending to learn where to go next to get the ending).

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Nuntar
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Mostly enjoying this so far. A whistle-stop tour of all elements in the game means it doesn't get repetitive (although I would like to see fewer roach queen hordes... which is a bit hypocritical because "introducing all elements by showing how they interact with a roach queen horde" is exactly what my own hold Bubble Wrap does ).

It's good that you're trying to come up with your own story, and I like the way you've used Arky... but some of the dialogue is lifted directly from JtRH and that's not good.

Backtracking issue: L3 Entrance can't be solved if you exit north without clearing it.

L1 3S is too hard for the first level; as far as I can see, you have to run to the south roaches before they become impossible to handle, then use a move order trick to deal with the east roaches.

The orbs in L4 1N1E aren't needed; you can clear the room, exit to reset the briar and then run past it.

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azb
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I like the feedback. It is intentional I use a lot of roaches and roach queens this early in the hold because I want it to mimic the progression of monsters being introduced in the original DROD canon, and same reason I used the dialogue directly - note it's not exactly word for word, but it's more of my own twist to it but using the same attitude/personality for the characters - note how Arky's dialogue is directly inspired by how he appears in the TSS demo/first couple of levels, everything is lifted from the original DROD canon in some way but with my own twist to it.

However, the backtracking issues and hard rooms are definitely not intentional, and are fixed ASAP, as well as levels 5 and 6 added in full in my latest version.



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Nuntar
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Level 5 1S1W doesn't have to be cleared, which may be intentional, because it also seems to be impossible. Is this just a lesson that sometimes rooms are impossible? Even if so, Halph disappears if you leave the room and come back (for instance, if the player wants to try a different sword orientation).

Challenge: Clear L6 1S without stepping on a power token.

L6 2S would be possible even if all the eyes faced the walls. The south eyes facing north makes it slightly easier.

L6 1S2E is copied from Jeff's hold. I asked about this in CaravelNet chat (two HAs were in chat at the time) just to make sure everyone's on the same page, and we all agreed this isn't okay. The new HA rules say: "Note that we consider all authors of user-made holds to have copyright over the holds they produce and the rooms they made, so no stealing from other holds either!" While it's true the room was slightly modified (I think some of the eye placements changed?) the solution and linchpin are essentially the same (I fully played through your version just to make sure). Being inspired by other people's rooms is a natural part of growing as an architect, but directly copying them and publishing your copy is not okay, especially without acknowledgement, and especially when the other room is still in Architecture.

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azb
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About Level 5 1S1W: I fixed that in the latest version with a force arrow barrier and path surrounded by green doors.

About the Jeff_Ray copying: I thought based off the literal interpretation of the HA rule "making easier or harder versions of existing rooms is OK" it was fine, but you're right if it's too similar it's basically just cheating based off a technicality and the rule is meant to prevent copy-pasting, so I will keep the idea but come up with my own room from the ground up.

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azb
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Okay, now the secret room is fixed in my latest version to be my own puzzle built with my own style, but the lynchpin is the same (having pressure plates pressed already so you don't trigger them on the way to kill the monster.)

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azb
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For level 7 ideas in full:

* The entrance room introduces serpents

* The west wing has the first room introducing invisibility potions, and the second room introducing the concept of taking another potion will cancel its effect.

* The south wing introduces adders in the first room, has a mimic kill adders in the second room where the puzzle is not letting the adders kill the mimic, and there are two secret rooms: one that is a puzzle about "kill the rock golem piles with the adder", and one that is only accesible after you finish the hold with an appropriate hold complete wall before it, that introduces multiple mimics working together to survive otherwise impossible hordes (like my AE edition of 210 Levels of Terror had in some rooms).

* The room after the blue door introduces single puffs that can't form fluff (not enough of them), and also shows off how they destroy briar and themselves when they touch briar.

* The room also introduces the Pit Thing and he taunts you about embracing the Mothingness for the first time in the hold without explaining it (he does that later on, referencing the progression of the original DROD canon).

In spirit of this not being too similar to other people's ideas, what do you think a good replacement for the word "Mothingness" is?

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---

[Last edited by azb at 12-10-2024 12:44 AM : Clarified final room of level]

azb
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I also will not actually make the secret room past the hold complete door until I finish all 25 levels of the hold, to keep things in logical order.

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azb
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For level 8:

* The first room introduces tar

* The east wing introduces hot tiles and tar, as well as mimics and tar and adders and tar

* The west wing introduces platforms and showcases how snakes prevent it from moving

* The north wing introduces orthosquares and seeding beacons

* The rooms past the blue door are more antics with the Slayer, showing both how you can use the Slayer to deal with the elements introduced in sections 7 and 8 as well as how these same elements can kill the Slayer easily (thinking mostly about adders and platforms)

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kieranmillar
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azb wrote:
About the Jeff_Ray copying: I thought based off the literal interpretation of the HA rule "making easier or harder versions of existing rooms is OK" it was fine, but you're right if it's too similar it's basically just cheating based off a technicality and the rule is meant to prevent copy-pasting, so I will keep the idea but come up with my own room from the ground up.

You appear to have a serious misunderstanding of how to behave when it comes to art and creative works. Directly copying other people's works is not OK. Imagine a world where there are no Hold Admins rules or process, would it now be OK? No, nothing changes in that regard. If somebody took this hold you're working on, made trivial changes to some rooms then posted it under their own name and tried to claim they made it, would that upset you?

I know you're probably only mentioning the HA rules here because you're responding to Nuntar bringing up those rules, but I thought it was worth mentioning that this is something that goes beyond those rules, and you'll find this principle applies everywhere else, in all other communities.

Just for clarity, that particular part in the HA rules about duplicate rooms is talking about copies of people's own rooms because nobody imagined that somebody would be considering it as a way to justify copying somebody else's room.

azb wrote:
In spirit of this not being too similar to other people's ideas, what do you think a good replacement for the word "Mothingness" is?

I just wanted to point this out as an example of how you don't seem to get it. Just swapping out a single word doesn't mean you're now not copying something!

I know the line between inspiration and theft can sometimes be blurry. For fan projects like these, you can make something that takes place in DROD's world at the same time as the main games and using the same characters, including the Pit Thing. And it's OK if he then talks about The Mothingness because that's what the Pit Thing does, it's part of his character. You're changing the wrong thing because you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how these things work.

If you're really struggling to understand where the line is, I would personally recommend trying to be as minimally derivative of other things as possible to remove all doubt. All we've ever wanted is for people to make their own stuff.

--------

To end this post on a more positive note, I did download and look at this hold and it's a big improvement over much of your recent stuff.

azb
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Okay, now it makes sense, cause I am still using the character and his personality directly changing the word "Mothingness" is changing a very trivial detail and it's still copying the character directly (and it's my intention 100% that this hold uses the JtRH story directly just with only small changes to specific names).

IE: changing only one small detail of a character/room is still stealing/lifting directly if most of the other details are still the same - it's sort of like copy pasting someone else's Photoshop project and changing only one pixel - everyone can use their common sense to know it's still basically the same without needing a specific rule.

I think that's your point, exploiting the fact it's not 100% identical doesn't change the fact it's still 99.9% percent identical to someone else's idea, and it's still stealing. Understood.

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[Last edited by azb at 12-10-2024 11:54 AM : Clarifying his meaning]

azb
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Now that I have levels 7 and 8 actually published, for level 9:

* The first room introduces guards in combat with no other monsters

* The west wing has more guard puzzles, some combat based and some about manipulating guards either to get them out of a maze or to kill other monsters

* The north wing has puzzles about using the stealthy role from TCB King Dugan's New Dungeon to solve puzzles that are impossible as normal Beethro, like specific monster setups or trapdoor puzzles exploiting the fact the disguised role can't drop them until he steps on a power token

* The east wing introduces floor spikes and has a puzzle exploiting its one difference compared to normal sword strikes when dealing with adders (rattlesnakes aren't introduced so far in the hold yet), namely multiple sword stabs will instantly shorten it by the number of stabs, whereas multiple floor spikes will always only shorten it by exactly one tile

* There is a puzzle about manipulating a mimic while dealing with the Slayer past the blue door, and there is a secret room with more messangers (keeping in theme with the original JtRH level 9)

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azb
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I know what I want (I don't introduce fire traps yet because it's not yet introduced in the hold's progression) conceptually but am having a hard time coming up with a room where you have to stab an adder head at the same time with a mimic or else the room is unwinnable if you just stab it one tile short at a time like normal, using on-off pressure plates and yellow doors as the mechanic.

Can someone please help me with a room that implements my idea?

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averagemoe
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azb wrote:
I know what I want (I don't introduce fire traps yet because it's not yet introduced in the hold's progression) conceptually but am having a hard time coming up with a room where you have to stab an adder head at the same time with a mimic or else the room is unwinnable if you just stab it one tile short at a time like normal, using on-off pressure plates and yellow doors as the mechanic.

Can someone please help me with a room that implements my idea?

You just need to set up some sort of timer so that the player will be locked in if they take too long, and make it too short to kill the adder one segment at a time.

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azb
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Awesome! That's a lot more straightforward.

And with that, I already have all the other rooms finished (including the room past the blue door and the secret room with story) so now level 9 will also be available after I implement your idea.

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azb
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File: Timer Room.hold (1.2 KB)
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Okay, so I tried a timer with briars, but unfortunately due to DROD's movement order system the briar grows on the pressure plate before I cut the brair root if they happen on the same turn.

How do you think I should implement the timer instead, because if I make it any longer then it's possible to win just by stabbing the adder without the mimic (which breaks the puzzle entirely)?

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azb
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In addition to that, I discovered an unintended solution is that you can kill the adder by just killing them with the mimic alone without stabbing it yourself, which also breaks the puzzle.

Do you have any good ideas to fix both of these issues while retaining the puzzle?

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azb
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And so, for level 10:

* The first room has the spider not move, and shows off how it becomes visible only in a certain radius from it

* The west wing shows how spiders move just like roaches and are always visible when they move, regardless of distance

* The east wing shows water skippers, nests, platforms over water, and bridges (just like TCB level 10)

* The north wing shows tar gates and sister black doors/tar gates

* The rooms past the blue door intrdouce the pickaxe and how it works for general combat first, then its specialty compared to other weapons which is being able to cut briar and remove golem piles in the last rooms after that.

* There is a secret room where the 39th Slayer sarcastically taunts you "Good luck!" like the original JtRH level 10's secret room did, but obviously with my own puzzle.

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[Last edited by azb at 12-10-2024 04:44 PM : Added other special feature of the pickaxe]

azb
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I also figured out how to solve both problems in the room I posted, so now level 9 is officially all set to go.

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azb
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My solution to the trivial solution was: to have a yellow door that didn't open until after you placed the mimic, and force you to step on the disarm token right after placing the mimic so that way the mimic is disarmed with you, then have a force arrow preventing you from easily re-arming yourself and the mimic, and have another token give you back your sword at the place where you stab the adder.

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azb
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Okay, now level 10 is finished.

I have personal stuff to do so won't be able to finish level 11 soon, and also I want to make sure all my puzzles are high-quality rather than rushed war style or early Jeff_Ray... style.

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azb
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For level 11's details:

* The first room introduces vision tokens to see what's under tar as well as evil eye gazes and spiders with 100% opacity

* The rest of the level before the blue door introduces bombs and fuses

* The final section behind the blue door introduces powder kegs and shows off personal quirks with how they interact with other things, like fuses or hot tiles (hot tiles are more important because it's easy to guess powder kegs are just like bombs and so will treat fuses the same way, but it's not as obvious hot tiles will also make them explode which is not true for bombs)

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Nuntar
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I still don't understand L5 1S1W. The "fix" changes none of the things I pointed out:
* Halph disappears if you leave the room and re-enter (which also means his dialogue comes out of thin air);
* You can walk through the room without clearing it;
* The room seems to be impossible to clear, and I'm not sure whether this is intentional.

Forgot to mention this, but L6 1S1E doesn't enforce its lesson. You can kill the first eye and put the mirror on the plate.

L7 2S1E doesn't enforce growing the adder. Since the bottom plate toggles the bottom door, you can get through the lock with a length 2 snake. Same for L8 4S.

L9 Entrance is maybe too hard considering the difficulty of the rest of the hold. Manageable with some trial and error but not all that fun.

L9 1N is uninspired; the room plays out exactly the same regardless of player role, so it doesn't showcase the stealth mechanic (and is also extremely similar to previous rooms). Suggestion: have a larger playing area with queens in each corner (or some corners) and arrow traps nearby so you have to choose where and when to make the first kill carefully.

I appreciated the way the player could choose to go south still in the guard role and investigate what difference it makes in the other rooms, and so could discover for themselves things like guard role being able to step over mimic potions without drinking them. I don't think any rooms are breakable this way -- they all seem to be unsolvable as guard. So I wouldn't change anything here. However, be careful about letting the player take guard role into the next level, it make break rooms or cause a backtracking issue! One simple way to ensure there are no breaks would be for L10 Entrance to have a script resetting the player role.

You can also take the guard role back to previous levels. Because of the warp, the player may have partially cleared Level 6 or 7, so it's currently possible to attempt nearly all rooms here as guard. This isn't a huge problem and it may be interesting to leave this in as something for curious players to explore for themselves. A lot of rooms are impossible or stay the same. I notice that L6 3S1E is much easier as guard; L6 2S1E is neither easier nor harder but very different in an interesting way; L7 2W becomes trivial. Again, this is not necessarily a problem that needs fixing, it's up to you whether to take it out. You could even add a secret room somewhere that's deliberately different as the guard to reward exploration.

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