kieranmillar
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Well done on the Diamond +3! W is interesting. There are parts of its design I really don't like, it's a pain to traverse for how much back and forth it requires, and I don't like its use of keys, it throws loads of keys at you early and tons of doors to get stats but you can't take them because you have to save up all your keys for enormous caches. But, how they managed to implement the main gimmick, which defies the usual standard of how you're meant to build stats, was fascinating to me, and I congratulate the design of it.

I've nearly made it to 200 hours and am going to be putting the game down again for a while, as the remaining towers don't enthuse me as much. I most recently tried to do Sword, but twice in a row I got stonewalled hard in the nexus stage and am at a loss as to what I'm supposed to do. Here's my progress where I'm leaving it.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 08-21-2021 12:30 PM]

mrimer
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Ah, neat to see your progress! Looks like you've tried some new towers I haven't yet. I went back and got platinum in Towers D and K. First time I've really experienced the nexus areas there. It was unusual that the K nexus was longer than the main area.

Next on my list is diamond for G, or maybe Tutorial 3, because it's listed as easier than D and K. After one of these, I'll probably follow that 6-diamond guide you mentioned for Hitofute Dojo and then see how I'm feeling about continuing at that point



Edit: Heh, Tutorial 3 doesn't *seem* easier! Made it to the second scorepoint and got into the nexus. I heard the nexus is supposedly easy, but I barely scraped through the first floor and didn't do much there. My build was wrong, so going to try again...

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-21-2021 10:53 PM]

mrimer
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Playing Tutorial 3 from the beginning, and using an appropriate build, worked for me this time. The tower felt challenging -- not a tutorial. (But I guess the point is this is an equipment tutorial. Still didn't feel like a tutorial, as equipment usage and selection didn't feel all that straightforward in the design.)

There was at least one non-obvious step to continue past the first score point, but the tower wasn't that long after that point. Got a diamond!

Then tried Dojo with a guide. I realized I couldn't get the platinum key from the nexus, as I was lacking a medal... Went through it anyway and got a gold. Then I had what I needed to get the platinum key, so went through it again with the key. With careful routing in Juyodan at the end, I managed about halfway between platinum and diamond.

I have 47 sunstones, and I didn't have any leftover medals to grab more keys or anchors in the nexus, so looks like I'll have to go through this *again* a bit later on once I can do that to get diamond.

On to Tower G!
(Edit: used my old saved game with my new medals to progress a bit in the nexus, expanding my map view and upgrading my gold medal to a platinum.)

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-24-2021 04:17 PM]

kieranmillar
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For Dojo the discord has a step-by-step full walkthrough, showing you exactly where to click on each floor, which is what I used. It'll get you a pure Platinum, and an impure Diamond once you have enough diamonds to get the feather from the nexus.

Good job with Tutorial 3, and good luck with G.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 08-24-2021 11:55 PM]

mrimer
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kieranmillar wrote:
For Dojo the discord has a step-by-step full walkthrough, showing you exactly where to click on each floor, which is what I used. It'll get you a pure Platinum, and an impure Diamond once you have enough diamonds to get the feather from the nexus.

Thanks!
Yes, that's what I followed. If I'm understanding the core requirements correctly, the pure platinum guide says it requires ~90+ sunstones in order to hit 18M, and the diamond guide actually requires more medals than just the feather and platinum key, i.e., you need to pick up extra yellow/blue/red keys, plus anchors, in order to reach diamond.

Maybe I did something wrong though? I was ~250K short of diamond with what I had. I ended up with ~200K HP less than the guide showed, given my worse starting stats after the nexus and first level. Also, without an extra red key, I had to improvise in a couple spots where that key was required in the guide to grab additional anchors. Don't know if that last item was the main issue, but definitely having lower starting stats than in the guide appeared to be an issue.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-24-2021 10:16 PM]

kieranmillar
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I think you looked at the wrong guide. There's one in the memo-guides channel by Phoil that gets a pure platinum at 0 sunstones, it's the html file you download and it has 15 thumbs up reactions against his post.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 08-24-2021 10:28 PM]

mrimer
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kieranmillar wrote:
I think you looked at the wrong guide. There's one in the memo-guides channel by Phoil that gets a pure platinum at 0 sunstones, it's the html file you download and it has 15 thumbs up reactions against his post.

Whoa! There's my problem! Thanks for setting me straight. Excited to see how this run works.

16 thumbs now

mrimer
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Got through Dojo with diamond this time. (Yay.)

Also completed Tower G with diamond+3!

I liked G's nexus with just a series of boss fights you prepare for.

Now I have all of the base game material completed, sans Pop Lord, with top ratings. Amazing how much content is in here.



Now on to all the harder stuff, I suppose. I've heard that Celestial Coliseum is basically a series of "boss" fights that you prepare for on each floor. That sounds pretty interesting to me, actually, so I'll take a look at that tower next.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 08-28-2021 09:05 PM]

mrimer
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Progress update:

* Got to the first clear point on Coliseum. Liked the concept, but some of the choices on each floor in the first section are so wonky it felt confusing. I looked for some memo guides -- first time I've used them -- to teach me how to get Platinum and pure gold on the first area. From there, muddled through the second area to reach beyond 71F and access the second score point along the way. After that point, I ran out of gas in a boss gauntlet of what is usually the tier of enemies encountered when entering a nexus challenge.
* Played Ruin, Mystery, and 24 min again and increased my pure scores to 5/3/2. These were fun! I still like playing non-huge areas with focused puzzles, and where I don't have to settle in for a marathon session to feel I'm making (meta)progress.
* Played Pop Lord a second time and, getting some help from the nexus, I fairly easily reached the first clear point, obtaining an impure silver. After that, things weren't going especially well in the next section. I hit a brick wall entering the section after that at 31-34F.

8 diamonds, 16 medals in all, 64 sunstones.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-02-2021 06:25 AM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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Looking good. Any thoughts on where you will try and get moon from?

mrimer
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Did an impure run of Sword. It was basically my first time in this tower and I was coming in fresh. I got impatient when things slowed down at the end, and I rushed through the last few floors to get silver at the second scorepoint.

Then for the nexus area, I realized

subanark wrote:
Looking good. Any thoughts on where you will try and get moon from?

Thanks! Good question! It feels this would be a huge accomplishment and it's definitely the next major goal on my radar.

Looks like I don't have too many options at my disposal, and Coliseum seemed like it would be the easiest one for this. (I haven't yet played the three other later towers that offer moon, but as they're all rated as larger and more difficult than Coliseum, getting moon from them feels quite intimidating at present.)

Based on my early performance in Coliseum, it's difficult to judge how close or far I am (both knowledge-wise and stats-wise) from reaching the end, and from scoring moon. Meanwhile, I decided to get a few more medals and sunstones under my belt before reattempting.

You have a ton of experience. May I request advice on how to complete Coliseum and what you would recommend for obtaining my first moon?

subanark
Level: Goblin
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For coli moon, you want to aim for the following:
1. Get every eternal
2. Get most feathers, skipping maybe 3 at most (once you get past loop 2, your key budget will stabilize).
3. Aim to have around 20 million health at end of part 1 (more is better, as long as your attack isn't horrible).
4. Don't pay for health after the first loop iteration.

Once you hit part 2, your health will only go down, still plan to defeat all enemies. Most of the health loss will be in the last loop iteration. Expect to lose about 12 million health. Take hp levels in the final loop iteration of pert 2.

In general, save levels for azure boosting, violet and plat bandanas. Get the claymore in part 2, and switch to azure in the final loop. As a rule of thumb, you can start saving levels when the thief and breaker do about the same damage.

Your goal is to get at least 9 glory keys (giving you 2 eternals at the end) and get 2 more eternals at the start of part 3. The 10th key won't help much, but the 11th does (this lets you get a 2x feather).

You can get glories from (in order of difficulty):
1. 1 free from each iteration in part 2 (5 total)
2. Bring 4 or 10 violets to part 3 (for 1 or 2 glories)
3. Bring a set of keys (5 yellow, 3 blue, 2 red, 2 violet, 1 plat) to part 3
4. Pay 5 plats and 1 red at the end of each loop iteration (at least 1, 2 is difficult, more is impractical)
5. Bring 7 plats to part 3 (you can do this twice)
6. Bring 78 digs to part 3 (wait a few screens to use them, do this up to 2 times)
7. Pay a plat to face strong enemies at the end of each loop 1.

mrimer
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Really appreciate the tips!

Based on what you shared, I'm carefully examining part 1 again. I hadn't thought of grabbing feathers here; I have been nearly solely focused on hp (and atk). I can get to ~25.5M this way, and based on what you said, it looks like I'll need to sacrifice a few million hp to grab feathers along the way to obtain keys and digs after the first loop. Is that right?

To ensure I'm understanding correctly, you're saying for moon the player may skip the feathers on

rounds 4, 6, and 7,

but must obtain the feathers on the remaining floors/rounds of part 1, i.e.,

10, 12, 13, 16, 18, 19, 22, 24, 25, 28, 30

Is this correct?

Edit: I tried this and got all feathers after round 12. That means I missed five of them (4,6,7,10,12). I ended up with these stats:

~18.8M HP
1936 ATK
486 DEF
33 Lv
5/5/1/1 keys (all but 1y acquired on Round 30)
2 digs

This is with making no potion grabs after Round 7 (except for the 2 immortals on Round 17). I leveled up HP for the first 5 levels, then ATK.

Sounds like you're saying this start won't turn out well enough in the end? I can't see how to get the feathers on floors 10 and 12 without severely reducing the HP I end up with for the final ~6 eternals. (Or maybe my ATK ended up a bit higher than needed by this point? Not sure whether I could pick up much less ATK and end up with significantly more hp in the end, however...)

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-02-2021 09:13 AM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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Naw, the immortals are not worth it, if they are making a significant impact in your HP, you are doing something wrong. In general, don't by hp from keys after the first eternal.

Make sure you are saving levels for Azure and fireblade. This will become your exclusive source of attack later on.

Also see if taking the solar pendant is worth it at the start.

That being said, it is possible to get moon just by getting to clear 2. You maybe be able to make due with your current run. In that case just use glories in the restroom, keep up your attack and stats, don't bother with bandanas and stop your run on round 69 getting the temporary Azure/bloom when you go to stand on clear 2.

mrimer
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subanark wrote:
Naw, the immortals are not worth it, if they are making a significant impact in your HP, you are doing something wrong. In general, don't by hp from keys after the first eternal.

Okay, understood, thanks.

Make sure you are saving levels for Azure and fireblade. This will become your exclusive source of attack later on.

I've been getting 1 level with each Azure and Fire Knife. Is it worth getting more than one level-up for any of these?

What do you mean by exclusive source of attack -- is there a point I should stop levelling up with attack or going for attack boosts?

Also see if taking the solar pendant is worth it at the start.

Okay, I'll check that out.
Edit: Hmm...now sure how I could dump 3 red keys into it on F1 and still get the return key from nexus floor 2. I would need additional medals to grab more than my current 2Y/1R/2V keys from the nexus, although it sounds like you're saying I can skip acquiring the return key, in which case, I might be able to make this happen.

That being said, it is possible to get moon just by getting to clear 2. You maybe be able to make due with your current run. In that case just use glories in the restroom, keep up your attack and stats, don't bother with bandanas and stop your run on round 69 getting the temporary Azure/bloom when you go to stand on clear 2.

Thanks! I'll test the above and then try this.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-02-2021 09:03 PM]

mrimer
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Update on part 1:
Solar Cross on F1 was very helpful, assuming I won't need a return key from the nexus. I have 21.7M HP at score point 1, so ~3M HP more than w/o the Cross. I managed to grab all but four feathers along the way (missed the one on F12 -- thinking I'd need another dozen medals to get this w/o tanking my health in the second loop) and am level 35 (way better than lv 18-19, for sure).

Without bandanas, I'm thinking to grab both equipment on F31 (Giant Slayer and Challenger Belt), which puts me at
2286 ATK
916 DEF
going into part 2.

Feeling much better about this route than the previous one I tried. Again, really appreciate the guidance. On to part 2!

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-02-2021 11:09 PM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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The only piece of equipment you should get is the bladeless claymore (in part 2, the part 1 cost is too expensive). Until then, save levels to boost at azure/firesword. After that, just level up as normal... possibly saving some levels before your end point on round 69.

Edit: For reference, the difference between the clear 1 score and the clear score (assuming all the feathers) is about 20 million points. In other words, you won't stand a chance to get moon in clear 2 unless your run is at least diamond in clear 1. The more past diamond the better.

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[Last edited by subanark at 09-03-2021 01:50 AM]

mrimer
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subanark wrote:
The only piece of equipment you should get is the bladeless claymore (in part 2, the part 1 cost is too expensive). Until then, save levels to boost at azure/firesword. After that, just level up as normal... possibly saving some levels before your end point on round 69.

Thank you. Okay, that will save some keys in Round 31. I'll save more level-ups throughout part 1 to boost at azure/fireswords. I would expect doing this too much before the eternals would hurt net hp, but it makes sense to seek a good balance.

Edit: For reference, the difference between the clear 1 score and the clear score (assuming all the feathers) is about 20 million points. In other words, you won't stand a chance to get moon in clear 2 unless your run is at least diamond in clear 1. The more past diamond the better.

Whoa! This is good to know, to not completely waste time going through part 2 just to fall short.

Can you help me reconcile what you mentioned earlier about being good completing part 1 with ~20M HP with the statement about needing to reach diamond (at 30M points)? I'm confident 30M at Round 31 is doable with 100+ sunstones when optimizing the first part for HP, but I can't see how diamond is possible in clear 1 when completing at ~22M HP (with 64 sunstones and skipping hp doors), because stats at this point amount to all of ~130K points in clear 1 at lv 35, which sums to way less than 30M. What am I missing?

Edit: probably makes sense to continue this conversation on Discord.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-03-2021 04:52 PM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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Sorry, the 20 million hp applies to a clear 3. Although you could probably go as low as 15 million.

With 100 sunstones and your medals 40 million is defiantly possible and probably enough for moon on clear 1 (based on a posting where someone got moon on 61 sunstones, and only 3 of those were diamonds, plus they made an easy 5 million score error and were 2 million more than required).

In general:
1. Health in the first loop is very important, but you should not go out of your way for it past that point (and probably not worth it past eternal #2). All health before the first eternal is multiplied by 512 at the start of clear 1. When you start loop 2 hp is only 1/8 of its value. You probably want to spend all your reds on HP before the first eternal.
2. Once you hit loop 3, most damage should be pretty minor compared to your hp, as long as you aren't too close to the def in your attack. Aggressively save levels for damage boosts, and kill lots of stuff for just the xp. From loop 3 onward you should not buy attack from keys (except maybe the long sword for 1 blue) and maximize the Azure payout. This will keep you ahead of the defense.
3. Don't trade blue for yellows unless you plan to use the blues. There is a stable key to feather payout after you get both plat eternals.

4. Not much work has been done on an impure clear 2 since it was only recently made available, so my math may be off. The example I gave of a clear was done before the change which required the return key.

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[Last edited by subanark at 09-03-2021 05:09 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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subanark wrote:
Sorry, the 20 million hp applies to a clear 3. Although you could probably go as low as 15 million.

Ah, gotcha!

With 100 sunstones and your medals 40 million is defiantly possible and probably enough for moon on clear 1 (based on a posting where someone got moon on 61 sunstones, and only 3 of those were diamonds, plus they made an easy 5 million score error and were 2 million more than required).

Wow, no kidding! Looks like I have more to figure out in part 1.

In general:
1. Health in the first loop is very important, but you should not go out of your way for it past that point (and probably not worth it past eternal #2). All health before the first eternal is multiplied by 512 at the start of clear 1. When you start loop 2 hp is only 1/8 of its value. You probably want to spend all your reds on HP before the first eternal.

K, thanks. I'm aware of the math, but it sounds like I'm probably not sucking all the HP I can out of the first loop if 30-40M HP is possible to hit in part 1. I'll look more carefully at the hp available in the first floors and try again.

2. Once you hit loop 3, most damage should be pretty minor compared to your hp, as long as you aren't too close to the def in your attack. Aggressively save levels for damage boosts, and kill lots of stuff for just the xp. From loop 3 onward you should not buy attack from keys (except maybe the long sword for 1 blue) and maximize the Azure payout. This will keep you ahead of the defense.

Really appreciate the detail. Will try this!

3. Don't trade blue for yellows unless you plan to use the blues. There is a stable key to feather payout after you get both plat eternals.

I've been performing the following key conversion on the first floor of later loops to get the feathers (except the first three): 2Y -> R, and YBR -> V. Also, 3B -> V in most loops, and R+V for 20 digs in a couple places.

4. Not much work has been done on an impure clear 2 since it was only recently made available, so my math may be off. The example I gave of a clear was done before the change which required the return key.

Oh! I wasn't aware there were recent changes. This clears some things up for me.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-03-2021 05:44 PM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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I would avoid the V + R for digs if possible, since 1 room later you can trade R for 10 digs (and do it twice if needed).

If memory servers, this is what I do for trades:

mrimer
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Thank you. 2Rs for 20 digs is definitely better than R+V.
I noticed that possibility and hadn't thought it through. I'll re-route for that option instead, which at first glance will save me Y+B each of the 2-3 times I do that. I could definitely use those keys elsewhere.

There's no feather on 1F (20 digs are in its place), so you might be thinking of doing the first loop's feather trade on 7F instead?

Update: I tried the option of grabbing the 13k HP cache on 1F for 3R -- instead of the Solar Cross -- and that worked out significantly better still. Doing a HP-optimized playthrough (skipping all feathers), I reached 30.8M HP and obtained my 9th diamond. (Yay!)

Now, the puzzle before me is how to integrate what I do to maximize HP in the first loop while grabbing the feathers in the remainder (which is what you've been saying all along).

Maybe getting all 5 HP level-ups before the first eternal would help.

The part I think I need to be most careful with is the second loop, where ~15K hit points still translates to 1M later. I feel I only have about 10K HP worth of wiggle room in that iteration to start grabbing feathers there and still hit 30M HP. I'll let you know how it goes!

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-03-2021 09:27 PM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I tried part 1 again and fell short of 30M...reached about 27M with ~400% XP.

I think I'm losing too many HP on the final floor of the first two loops (i.e., F6 and F12). Fighting multiple enemies on each floor, and maybe it's too early to do that.

I've been gathering keys on F6 to get the platinum key on F7, to get the 3 Dream Ocean + 10 digs. This may not be worth it (you've indicated as such). It seems close and I'll probably have to play through the other way to confirm. The alternative might be to spend the keys on the F7 feather, but it's hard to justify 3.2M hp for a feather. Is it really worth it? Maybe just skip both sets of goodies entirely and keep the 3-5M hp.

Also, I lose ~200k hp on F12 getting all keys in the center, which equates to ~3.2M hp later. Hard to tell if another feather is worth this. Maybe I should only get some of the keys here?

I'll play around with it a bit more...

What would you recommend?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-04-2021 02:01 AM]

subanark
Level: Goblin
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My key trades are for loops 3,4,5 and 6.

The first 2 loops are a bit weird. You should be using your starting keys to help with the deficit and needing to get the eternals.

Feel free to skip some of the keys in the arena floor for the first two loops. However, you should defiantly pick up the violet and red. Loop 2 has no azure, so you should be leveling up as soon as you can, but past that point, you should try to save levels for Azure. In the 3rd loop you can take the long sword for 1 blue to help getting though that, but once you can get a decent Azure in loop 3, everything should fall into place nicely after that.

I am not too sure, but I think you want about 31 million hp at the end of part 1.

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[Last edited by subanark at 09-04-2021 08:01 AM]

mrimer
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I was able to complete part 1 with these stats:

26.3M HP
2357 ATK
494 DEF
Lv 41 400% XP

Though I knew the HP was low, I continued through part 2 quickly, killing everything along the way, to see how far off I'll be from moon. On floor 69 with the Azure, I have

17.7M HP (only losing 9M HP!)
23560 ATK
7141 DEF
Lv 177 580% XP

~45M points

If I should end part 1 with ~31M HP, seems like the missing 5M HP is basically what I'm lacking to achieve moon. Probably, also, picking up a couple more feathers in part 1 would have surely helped get another 5-7 levels maybe and another ~3 million points or so?

So! Feels like I ran part 2 well and I'm not extremely far off, but I do need to figure out how to pick up another two feathers while preserving my HP in part 1. I'm probably still missing something important...

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-05-2021 01:09 AM]

mrimer
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Going forward, I'll move detailed discussion of my progress over to the discord channel, but for some closure, I'm happy to report that I obtained my first Moon from Coliseum...+2!

Subanark, a big thank you for providing assistance.

If I'm correct, a moon will break open additional sunstone gathering. Looking forward to what to try next.

For posterity, what I did was

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
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The developers have ditched the insane pricing model and made the main game free, only selling the extra Chapter DLC. So if you ever wanted to experience an incredibly wild and hardcore magic tower game, now is your chance!

Citrus
Level: Smitemaster

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It is damn tough. Haven't cleared a single tower yet with higher than a bronze without cheating. I'm not the best at this genre but damn this one is rough.

____________________________
Call me Citrus. Small system. Sometimes we'll sign off our messages with who wrote it if it's relevant. Colored text indicates who.

Gordius
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Ezlo wrote:
It is damn tough. Haven't cleared a single tower yet with higher than a bronze without cheating. I'm not the best at this genre but damn this one is rough.

I tried this game back when the board was first talking about it and had a similar experience. I finally (after far too long trying to figure out how to make things work for me) decided the level of optimizing necessary moved this into the "not fun" category for me. But it's an interesting effort and I'm glad the developer's still working on it and there are still players enjoying it.