Heroinefan
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on the subject of swan morailty whos to say what is the right thing?

You would think it was a no brainer right? give her back her wings...but then she abandons her son...as such creatures in legends are wot to do.

That is...upon returning to there true form/the trick undone, contract broken, human form abadoned ect.

The child should have also turned into a swan, and left with the mother if this action was taken.

The husband was undoubtly clever, and foolish at the same time as those in such fairy tales, myths and legends, often are.

On the whole perhaps it would have been better not to interfer and let it play its course, she would have came to resolution in the end anyway is my guess.

She only seemed to love her son in human form, in swan form she undoubtly resented him, but loved the heroine. Was that part of the point?

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[Last edited by Heroinefan at 05-21-2015 11:55 AM]

Fizzii
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Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer, hence choosing to give her the wings (or not) does not affect honour.

You'd find out at the end what happens if you do give back the wings though.

Heroinefan
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Fizzii wrote:
Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer, hence choosing to give her the wings (or not) does not affect honour.

You'd find out at the end what happens if you do give back the wings though.

Still dose not seem as if her faimly is with her only chasing or following her as a bird they are still never together again, or at least thins is not implied. I mean you could chase a pidgeon around that dose not mean it nessacarly wants anything to do with you.

Fizzii
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They're not chasing her, they're with her in the sky

I mean, Hervor does love her family, she just longed to be free.

Heroinefan
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Fizzii wrote:
They're not chasing her, they're with her in the sky

I mean, Hervor does love her family, she just longed to be free.

Thats good to know, and makes me feel better about the whole thing...but also no bird fly all the time would wear out her wings...so do you think she will touch down and talk to her family sometime as a human? As a creator of the story do you think so?

Fizzii
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Probably. That is how she met Volund after all

Radiant
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Heime can't turn into a swan, although if Hervor had a daughter then it may have been possible. Only women get to be a swanmaiden, after all.

Note also that Heime wouldn't want to hurt his mother; so in the endgame scene, he and Volund are flying with her, not trying to catch her.

And yes, Hervor will land on occasion (in fact, you can find her in swan form in several locations in the game). She'll probably not want to take human form for a while, though.

____________________________
= Radiant =

Heroinefan
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Radiant wrote:
Heime can't turn into a swan, although if Hervor had a daughter then it may have been possible. Only women get to be a swanmaiden, after all.

Well given his name....hahaha, sorry bad joke. Bad. Just no...but when hervor said something like: my little heime is missing!...I cracked up and so did my 55 year old mother...so I know it was not just me being oddball...poor kid.


Note also that Heime wouldn't want to hurt his mother; so in the endgame scene, he and Volund are flying with her, not trying to catch her.

And yes, Hervor will land on occasion (in fact, you can find her in swan form in several locations in the game). She'll probably not want to take human form for a while, though.

Dont blame her, husband tricked her and ripped off her wings. No flying back to him on the wings off love, but she dose have her son to consider.

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[Last edited by Heroinefan at 05-29-2015 05:06 AM]

ConjurerDragon
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Heroinefan wrote:
Dont blame her, husband tricked her and ripped off her wings. No flying back to him on the wings off love, but she dose have her son to consider.

Does it actually say that he ripped off her wings?
I don’t remember to have read that ingame. The usual way in myth was that the swanmaiden was bathing somewhere and a guy stole her swan dress/magic robe.

Heroinefan
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ConjurerDragon wrote:

Heroinefan wrote:
Dont blame her, husband tricked her and ripped off her wings. No flying back to him on the wings off love, but she dose have her son to consider.

Does it actually say that he ripped off her wings?
I don’t remember to have read that ingame. The usual way in myth was that the swanmaiden was bathing somewhere and a guy stole her swan dress/magic robe.

I know what you mean, its usually her gown which is fine. I could not understand how one could steal actual wings without removing them. Unless its a talismanic object of power, and not her actual swan wings. Yet the game seems to suggest it is her swan wings. On the other hand they look like symbolic objects and not severed wings but who can really say? (Its a interesting lore question though inst it?

Radiant
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ConjurerDragon wrote: The usual way in myth was that the swanmaiden was bathing somewhere and a guy stole her swan dress/magic robe.

Yes, this is the background. Bear in mind that Hervor doesn't know that

____________________________
= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 10-16-2017 10:26 AM]

Heroinefan
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Radiant wrote:

ConjurerDragon wrote: The usual way in myth was that the swanmaiden was bathing somewhere and a guy stole her swan dress/magic robe.

Yes, this is the background. Bear in mind that Hervor doesn't know that

Click here to view the secret text

×Volund, specifically, has her wings; this is why he hides them. Furthermore, Hervor is stronger than Volund (as the sword-bending scene shows, which is also from the myth), so he is simply not capable of physically ripping anything off of her.

I like hervor a lot and Hime is very lucky to have her as a mother to balance off his father, telling him stories of other words and from Alice in wonderland.

He will develop good taste as well as battle prowess.

I see why voland loves her, she contains what hes missing. Maybe I am giving him to much credit bt some how I don't think so. He acts like a stereotype, but I don't think that's the truth of the man.

His choice reflects his taste. Also his ability to craft such things as he dose, the magic chest and the sword. Note, he was not sniffing after lithrazir or the like, but chose instead, a legendary creature.

He has given his son the perfect mother, who, along with what he has to offer the boy will give him every tool needed to become, not just a fine warrior, but the stuff of legends.

Hime is a very lucky boy, I don't think even he knew how lucky. He is too young to know.

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[Last edited by Heroinefan at 10-17-2017 03:45 PM]

ConjurerDragon
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...
He will develop good taste as well as battle prowess.

I see why voland loves her, she contains what hes missing. Maybe I am giving him to much credit bt some how I don't think so. He acts like a stereotype, but I don't think that's the truth of the man.

His choice reflects his taste. Also his ability to craft such things as he dose, the magic chest and the sword. Note, he was not sniffing after lithrazir or the like, but chose instead, a legendary creature.

He has given his son the perfect mother, who, along with what he has to offer the boy will give him every tool needed to become, not just a fine warrior, but the stuff of legends.

Hime is a very lucky boy, I don't think even he knew how lucky. He is too young to know.
Volund is the english name for Wayland the Smith/Wieland/
so definitely not a lucky future for Heime with his dad...

Mmmh, I can’t post a link to WIKI with less than 12 rank points and have only 10 - how do I get 2 more?

Heroinefan
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ConjurerDragon wrote:
...
He will develop good taste as well as battle prowess.

I see why voland loves her, she contains what hes missing. Maybe I am giving him to much credit bt some how I don't think so. He acts like a stereotype, but I don't think that's the truth of the man.

His choice reflects his taste. Also his ability to craft such things as he dose, the magic chest and the sword. Note, he was not sniffing after lithrazir or the like, but chose instead, a legendary creature.

He has given his son the perfect mother, who, along with what he has to offer the boy will give him every tool needed to become, not just a fine warrior, but the stuff of legends.

Hime is a very lucky boy, I don't think even he knew how lucky. He is too young to know.

Volund is the english name for Wayland the Smith/Wieland/
so definitely not a lucky future for Heime with his dad...

Mmmh, I can’t post a link to WIKI with less than 12 rank points and have only 10 - how do I get 2 more?
Some weirdness I don't know about? Good grief.

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[Last edited by Heroinefan at 10-17-2017 04:37 PM]

Radiant
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Heroinefan wrote: Some weirdness I don't know about? Good grief.

He... goes on to craft Durendale, Albion, and Caliburn...

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Heroinefan
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Radiant wrote:

Heroinefan wrote: Some weirdness I don't know about? Good grief.

He... goes on to craft Durendale, Albion, and Caliburn...

25
down vote

Arthurian legend is essentially combined from a wide variety of sources, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

The first narrative account is from Geoffrey of Monmouth in Historia Regum Britanniae (History of the Kings of Britain), 12th Century. He wrote, in Latin, of a sword called Caliburnus, which was made on the isle of Avalon.

Wace wrote Roman de Brut (12th Century), which is described as "an Old French translation and versification of [Monmouth]". According to Wiki, the sword is called Calabrum, Callibourc, Chalabrun, and Calabrun (with alternate spellings such as Chalabrum, Calibore, Callibor, Caliborne, Calliborc, and Escaliborc).

Chretien de Troyes wrote, in Perceval, (again in the 12th Century), of a sword called Escalibor or Excalibor.

Robert de Boron (late 12th/early 13th Century), in Merlin, wrote of the Sword in the Stone, and about the idea of only "one true king" being able to retrieve the sword. It isn't confirmed that this sword is Excalibur, but later versions took this story and called the sword Excalibur.

I found this..so he made King Authors sword Excalibur? How dose that make him a bad father? How did a Viking make it into Arthurian legend for that matter? Now if he had contributed to writhing the Necronomicon, and made it to the Cuthlu mythos, that might be another matter..possibly.

ConjurerDragon
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Heroinefan wrote:
...
I found this..so he made King Authors sword Excalibur?

Only a member of the working class would be able to create such a feat, "Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony."

How dose that make him a bad father? How did a Viking make it into Arthurian legend for that matter? Now if he had contributed to writhing the Necronomicon, and made it to the Cuthlu mythos, that might be another matter..possibly.

A viking could not have made it historically into whatever historical truth is behind arthurian legend. That is because King Arthur/Art-Uther/Ambrosius Aurelianus was a king of the british (not the today people who call themselves british - those are the historical anglo-saxon invaders) who fought the invasion of the continental angles, saxon and jutes. And so long before anyone first heard of vikings when those plundered Lindisfarne.

Wieland in the legends is no viking. "Viking" is a far too narrow description of the norse raiders and describes only a part of the norse culture and history. The old norse language was understandable not only by people speaking old english but continental germanic speakers too. That is part of the reason that his tale spread far and wide and he (as a mastersmith) was used by other storytellers to introduce some mastermade weapon without historical evidence - after all he is said to have forged the sword of Roland too (the frankish knight who was so full of hot air that he always carried a big horn called olifant and who died protecting the retreat of the frankish kings invasion of muslim Catalonia).

Wieland shares part of his story with Daedalus, only that Daedalu s story was far more funny than his.

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[Last edited by ConjurerDragon at 10-17-2017 08:51 PM]

Heroinefan
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ConjurerDragon wrote:
Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony."

Hey, I'm educated, I went to Miskatonic University and can tell you, the citizens of Innsmouth would have disagreed.

Nowhere Girl
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Still, I really liked the swan maiden sidequest. I felt so moved by it that later I wrote in my diary (not a literal quote, I'm writing it from memory): "Is it a rebellious story? Not necessarily. It's not a call to arms, just a diagnosis sharp like a piercing blade: men steal women's wings".
To make it clear, I genuinely believe that relationships with men are not in women's interest. Friendships between free women who will not betray each other are more valuable.

Fizzii
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To make it clear, I genuinely believe that relationships with men are not in women's interest. Friendships between free women who will not betray each other are more valuable.

I think there is some merit in that, just because many men haven't quite picked up on the mental load of running a household, making appointments, noticing and doing chores that need to be done. Which does become more noticeable after children.

It's more likely a result of how boys have been socialised vs girls as they grow up. So maybe at some point in the future, there will be more equality, but it might be a slow process.

ConjurerDragon
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Nowhere Girl wrote:
Still, I really liked the swan maiden sidequest. I felt so moved by it that later I wrote in my diary (not a literal quote, I'm writing it from memory): "Is it a rebellious story? Not necessarily. It's not a call to arms, just a diagnosis sharp like a piercing blade: men steal women's wings".
To make it clear, I genuinely believe that relationships with men are not in women's interest. Friendships between free women who will not betray each other are more valuable.

Even if people seem to forget that, women are human beings too. And human beings have habits shared by both sexes - including the ability to deceive, lie and betray others. Actually women excel in that as we simple men usually are just brutes unable to remember the intricate snares of complicated webs of lies or to conceive the devious plots of intrigue and mischievous misery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misery_(film)
that women are so fond of (just think how the Nibelungs were lured into their deathtrap by the revenge of a widow).

So - women unable to betray each other are not really free as that is a common part of human behaviour. And placing a higher value on relationships between woman shows a crippled view of the world or a lack of experience either of good relationships of the one or in bad relationships of the other sort.

I for my part like to see it this way: A powerful magical creature decides to drop her clothes and take a nice long bath right in full view of a guy while pretending not to already have noticed the presence of that man in the vicinity from miles away on the fligth to the lake while placing her all-so-important gown on the shore, practically in armˆs reach of the guy (whose eyes are probably already are bulging out of his eyesockets while watching the swan turned nudist stripper.
Looks like a clear invitation to me to take the gown up and - even if only for a while as men are mortal - to turn the shy flying animal into a human being and wife.

And why is that so clear? Because most women I know and have known were unable to simply clearly and honestly state what they want and rather would cock up some elaborate scheme or excuse to get it while pretending that they do not really want it and they are practically doing someone a favour for even considering it...

Fizzii
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And human beings have habits shared by both sexes - including the ability to deceive, lie and betray others.

Well, those aren't technically habits, but yes, every person has the choice to do right and wrong.

Actually women excel in that as we simple men usually are just brutes unable to remember the intricate snares of complicated webs of lies or to conceive the devious plots of intrigue and mischievous misery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misery_(film)
that women are so fond of (just think how the Nibelungs were lured into their deathtrap by the revenge of a widow).

That is not necessarily true. Men are not so simple that they can't lie, betray or deceive others. I am sure there are plenty of men out there who do cheat on their partners and commit fraud and who knows what. Not to mention most crime groups are run by men. Quoting the story of Nibelungs is not proof; that's a story which was designed to perpetuate a stereotype about women.

I for my part like to see it this way: A powerful magical creature decides to drop her clothes and take a nice long bath right in full view of a guy while pretending not to already have noticed the presence of that man in the vicinity from miles away on the fligth to the lake while placing her all-so-important gown on the shore, practically in armˆs reach of the guy (whose eyes are probably already are bulging out of his eyesockets while watching the swan turned nudist stripper.
Looks like a clear invitation to me to take the gown up and - even if only for a while as men are mortal - to turn the shy flying animal into a human being and wife.

Well, there's no evidence in Heroine's Quest that she deliberately went bathing in order to lure a man. Back in the Middle Ages, Volund's actions would be considered fine. But in today's society, taking away someone's freedom and claiming them as a possession is akin to slavery, which is not ok.

And why is that so clear? Because most women I know and have known were unable to simply clearly and honestly state what they want and rather would cock up some elaborate scheme or excuse to get it while pretending that they do not really want it and they are practically doing someone a favour for even considering it...

In your experience does not equate to it being clear that Hervor was deliberately trying to tempt Volund. That aside, maybe the fact that the women you know don't directly state what they want is because of the way they have been socialised growing up... in order to be "nice" you can't be seen as asking for stuff for yourself... because that's selfish and females are meant to be giving. The moment a woman stands up for herself, she's considered a "bitch" so it's not exactly a win-win situation.

Radiant
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ConjurerDragon wrote: I for my part like to see it this way: A powerful magical creature decides to drop her clothes and take a nice long bath right in full view of a guy while pretending not to already have noticed the presence of that man in the vicinity from miles away on the fligth to the lake while placing her all-so-important gown on the shore, practically in armˆs reach of the guy

I feel I should point out that this interpretation contradicts Hervor's characterisation in the game.

Looks like a clear invitation to me to take the gown up and - even if only for a while as men are mortal - to turn the shy flying animal into a human being and wife.

I should also point out that while taking the wings prevents her from shapeshifting, it does not give any kind of mind control over the swanmaiden and doesn't let one compel her to do anything against her will (nor does it do so in any of the myths I have read). This is why Volund hides her wings and nervously checks on them at night.

That does not absolve Volund nor make him a good guy, but at least he's not a slave owner.

____________________________
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ConjurerDragon
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Radiant wrote:

ConjurerDragon wrote: I for my part like to see it this way: A powerful magical creature decides to drop her clothes and take a nice long bath right in full view of a guy while pretending not to already have noticed the presence of that man in the vicinity from miles away on the fligth to the lake while placing her all-so-important gown on the shore, practically in armˆs reach of the guy

I feel I should point out that this interpretation contradicts Hervor's characterisation in the game.

Looks like a clear invitation to me to take the gown up and - even if only for a while as men are mortal - to turn the shy flying animal into a human being and wife.

I should also point out that while taking the wings prevents her from shapeshifting, it does not give any kind of mind control over the swanmaiden and doesn't let one compel her to do anything against her will (nor does it do so in any of the myths I have read). This is why Volund hides her wings and nervously checks on them at night.

That does not absolve Volund nor make him a good guy, but at least he's not a slave owner.

Well, we do get to see how Hervor bends steel with her bare hands. So Volund could not force her to anything even if he wanted. And hiding the wings only makes her stay in human form - so everything else that happened did so with her consent.

That is, if you believe that powerful magical creatures are actually so self-forgotten that they do not take care of the one important item in their life and place it right next to the nose of someone. If you do not believe that - and why would I, Hervor seem not to be mentally handicaped and quite capable to take care of her own and make her own choices - then it comes down to yet another woman that tempted someone to take her in, only to yearn for her freedom after she became a housewife and mother. She is practically showing the same attitude like fathers who would leave wife and child to fend for themselves

Radiant
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I'm not here to argue with you. I already said that this interpretation contradicts Hervor's characterisation in the game. That is all.

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= Radiant =

Heroinefan
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Genders are =....no types of gender mixing or matching in relationship is contextually, universally, better or worse than the other.

No gender is better than another gender by virtue of gender.

Everyone is an individual, and every combination of individuals that form a relationship is unique contextually.

Nether men or women as in ''placing a value on life''better than the other, under law.

They are each different but that dose not assign a value or define worth.

The new age stuff is lies and the majority don't go by it and just live on as always, save sheltered areas and bubble worlds.

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[Last edited by Heroinefan at 12-08-2018 09:30 AM]