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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Re: Re: More Weird Physics On The "Pie Slice" (0)  
agaricus5 wrote:
How does the sun propel itself on its daily cycle then, if it is less dense than the atmosphere, because it should float? (I assume [dangerous] that it's made of superheated plasma) :)
I have to admit I came up with the sun's behaviour first, and left the explanation to more thorough speculators like yourself. :)

-Erik

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06-05-2003 at 10:21 PM
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icon Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Weird Physics On The "Pie Slice" (0)  
agaricus5 wrote:
A wall? So how did anything ever manage to land on this "pie slice" in the first place then - it can't have just "appeared" from nowhere, unless, that is, if somehow an absolutely huge amount of energy managed to turn itself into matter as it passed within the "edge" of the "pie". :)
Well, once again you are at the boundaries of my invention. Maybe one day... bam! It was just there. Hmm... not a very satisfying answer.
I assumed that you meant "magnetic" north pole or something originally based on that concept.
Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't call it the "North Pole". But it is the northernmost point, and that is all I meant to get across.

-Erik

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06-05-2003 at 10:27 PM
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agaricus5
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ErikH2000 wrote:
zex20913 wrote:
It appears that the sun is the thing that moves, but in reality, the land is fluctuating around the sun. While this might provide odd feelings for the inhabitants, it probably wouldn't as the speed up and slow down would be gradual.
Whoa, I didn't think of that. Kind of a scary thought.

-Erik
It wouldn't be possible even with your laws of physics, Erik, unless you have a redefined definition of gravity... :D

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06-05-2003 at 10:44 PM
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icon Re: Re: Re: Re: More Weird Physics On The "Pie Slice" (0)  
ErikH2000 wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
How does the sun propel itself on its daily cycle then, if it is less dense than the atmosphere, because it should float? (I assume [dangerous] that it's made of superheated plasma) :)
I have to admit I came up with the sun's behaviour first, and left the explanation to more thorough speculators like yourself. :)

-Erik
I'm sorry about that Erik :~) , I shouldn't speculate so much (It is your invention after all, and I couldn't do any better myself). So, I'll make some amends by giving an explanation;)

Okay, since you are over-secretive about what's in the pie "core", I can make some assumptions about the volcano, and the "sun".

This is my explanation of the phenomena of the "sun". Ahem....

The volcano contains an extremely hot mixture of some sort of molten material, which, like lava in our world, is very hot but is more dense than the atmosphere so it cannot normally float. The "core" of this "pie" is, however, very much hotter than our own Earth's and the atmosphere much denser. The core is so hot, in fact, that when a "hotspot" of molten material becomes much hotter than the surrounding material, it has enough energy to vaporise the material, and so it becomes a superheated "blob" of plasma gas. The movements of the liquids, composed of magnetic material and rock, beneath the surface also generate very strong magnetic fields and so all of it becomes polarised. The plasma gas, pulled by the magnetic field towards the centre volcano, rises very rapidly, and because it is much less dense than the atmosphere, shoots up out of the volcano until it reaches a height where it cannot rise any more as the atmosphere becomes too thin, just like in a lava lamp. The plasma blob stays attractd to the surface of the pie due to gravity, and over the volcano because of the strong magnetic field holding it there. The gas itself is of an extremely high temperature, and so it has enough energy to emit white light and heat to warm the "pie" up. This floating ball then floats there until it begins to lose energy, and grow a little dimmer until, it is cool enough to become dense enough to fall back into the volcano. This can only ever happen once a day because the heat loss needs about a day to recover, though sometimes, another "blob" may be ejected for a shorter period during the night and cause mass sleeplessness throughout the "world".

I suppose it covers most of it...

Well, not really... Don't say anything about the heat problems because I cannot find a suitable explanation for how the pie doesn't melt, except this, which is nowhere near explanatory enough:

The core is much deeper down than in our own Earth, and that the rocks have a higher specific heat capacity than our own rocks (You need more energy to melt them).

Oh, well, enjoy, and if you can see a mistake or flaw, dispute! :cigar

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-05-2003 at 11:31 PM]

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06-05-2003 at 11:30 PM
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zex20913
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Naw...I think that with this newfound "fingersnap" revelation, it provides methods of religions. Have you ever seen one of those floaty ball things? You know the ones where the inflatable ball is constantly pushed up by a stream of air effectively negating gravity? The people's god (not a wrestler) puts the plug in every morning and takes it out every evening. Between this idea, and agricarus', the Eighthers debate constantly. Science, or religion? Which?

By the way ag...how do we know the color of this sun? I believe you have thrown some speculation into this. You assumed it gave white light, when Erik has not said anything about this. Given the odd topologies and interesting physics/curvatures of the pie, I would not be surprised if it was pink.

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06-05-2003 at 11:42 PM
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agaricus5
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zex20913 wrote:
Naw...I think that with this newfound "fingersnap" revelation, it provides methods of religions. Have you ever seen one of those floaty ball things? You know the ones where the inflatable ball is constantly pushed up by a stream of air effectively negating gravity? The people's god (not a wrestler) puts the plug in every morning and takes it out every evening. Between this idea, and agaricus', the Eighthers debate constantly. Science, or religion? Which?
I don't know - we've both come up with a fairly plausible explanation for either, so it's up to Erik to decide, or not, as the case may be...:P

By the way ag...how do we know the color of this sun? I believe you have thrown some speculation into this. You assumed it gave white light, when Erik has not said anything about this. Given the odd topologies and interesting physics/curvatures of the pie, I would not be surprised if it was pink.

Well, but then if it was red, then there would be a serious problem - anything blue or green would go a sort of brown because of the lower levels of those primary colours of light. And anyway, when was the last time you saw anything glow pink without using a colour filter? :)

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-05-2003 at 11:52 PM]

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OK, get this. Inside the hole that the sun pops out of, there's a wormhole that sucks in energy but not matter. Its field of effect is not that large, so all it does normally is suck the light energy away from the area so you can't really see much when you're around it. As the sun is in the sky, it is gradually drifting towards the wormhole because of the hole's very feeble gravity. This movement is infinitesimal, but when the sun gets to a certain distance away from the hole, the wormhole grabs it and sucks it in, breaking the sound barrier as it goes so the sun goes out with a BANG! Since the sun is almost pure energy, the wormhole gobbles it up and the leftover gases float around the hole, again because of its feeble gravity that can't even be felt on the surface. As we all know, for every wormhole there's a partner, and the energy from the sun comes blasting out the other hole (which is trillions of light-years away). There it ignites the swirling gases left behind by its previous trip, giving enough energy to hurl it just outside of the wormhole's influence. It then repeats the same cycle, drawing infinitesimally closer until it falls within the sphere of influence, getting sucked back through and leaving a cloud of gas behind. Coming out the other end, the energy ignites the gases left behind from setting and the sun leaps into the air with a KABLAM! It has just enough momentum to get across the boundary that defines the wormhole's area of effect, and you can see that it goes back and forth forever like a pendulum. The reason it won't run out of fuel anytime soon is because there is a nice gigantic "real" sun near the other end of the wormhole, emitting gases like crazy; some of these get trapped and added to the swirling cloud at the hole. Thus when the sun comes back it picks up more gases to burn away, and leaves behind more gases as it swings back and forth, to compensate for what it burns off. Of course their sun can't be nearly as large as our sun, because it has to fit in the hole and hover 10 miles above the pie without frying the occupants. It's more like a mini-sun.

Also, to compensate for the sun being so close, the pie has an extremely thick blanket of ozone that covers it at about 9 miles up. Even this wouldn't be able to protect you if you were close to the sun-hole, so if you go to the North Pole, not only do you risk bumping shoulders against yourself and not being able to see, you're also at risk for skin cancer. So, going to the North Pole is not reccomended.

Also, the wormhole warps space-time in the column that the sun travels up and down in, so the 8-way mirroring effect of the pie is cancelled out (thus, the sun is actually a whole thing and not just an eighth of a sun mirrored eight times, otherwise things wouldn't go right when it got spat out the other wormhole). I can't even imagine what kind of weird things might happen if you walked into this column.

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06-06-2003 at 12:03 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Discussing The Phenomenon Of The Sun (0)  
Sorry about this... Just another friendly scientific argument...

Sokko wrote:
OK, get this. Inside the hole that the sun pops out of, there's a wormhole that sucks in energy but not matter.
How could you?! That breaks one of Einstein's fundamental theories - Energy is matter!

Its field of effect is not that large, so all it does normally is suck the light energy away from the area so you can't really see much when you're around it. As the sun is in the sky, it is gradually drifting towards the wormhole because of the hole's very feeble gravity. This movement is infinitesimal, but when the sun gets to a certain distance away from the hole, the wormhole grabs it and sucks it in, breaking the sound barrier as it goes so the sun goes out with a BANG!

I like the idea, but how do we know wormholes have gravity? Maybe it is the other "star's" gravitational pull being felt through the wormhole?

Since the sun is almost pure energy, the wormhole gobbles it up and the leftover gases float around the hole, again because of its feeble gravity that can't even be felt on the surface. As we all know, for every wormhole there's a partner, and the energy from the sun comes blasting out the other hole (which is trillions of light-years away). There it ignites the swirling gases left behind by its previous trip, giving enough energy to hurl it just outside of the wormhole's influence. It then repeats the same cycle, drawing infinitesimally closer until it falls within the sphere of influence, getting sucked back through and leaving a cloud of gas behind. Coming out the other end, the energy ignites the gases left behind from setting and the sun leaps into the air with a KABLAM! It has just enough momentum to get across the boundary that defines the wormhole's area of effect, and you can see that it goes back and forth forever like a pendulum......... Of course their sun can't be nearly as large as our sun, because it has to fit in the hole and hover 10 miles above the pie without frying the occupants. It's more like a mini-sun.
Yeah, but what about all that UV radiation - that would certainly fry all the inhabitants :D, and the noise from all the fusion reactions going on? Wouldn't it be really noisy - how could anyone hear anything?

Also, to compensate for the sun being so close, the pie has an extremely thick blanket of ozone that covers it at about 9 miles up. Even this wouldn't be able to protect you if you were close to the sun-hole, so if you go to the North Pole, not only do you risk bumping shoulders against yourself and not being able to see, you're also at risk for skin cancer. So, going to the North Pole is not reccomended.
Oh, sorry about the UV...

I don't think that the ozone could survive being so close to the "sun" - I think it will decompose, but I'm ignorant about Ozone, so I'm probably wrong.

The reason it won't run out of fuel anytime soon is because there is a nice gigantic "real" sun near the other end of the wormhole, emitting gases like crazy; some of these get trapped and added to the swirling cloud at the hole. Thus when the sun comes back it picks up more gases to burn away, and leaves behind more gases as it swings back and forth, to compensate for what it burns off.
That's interesting, but gravity pulls - how does the real star "emit" gases like crazy?

Also, the wormhole warps space-time in the column that the sun travels up and down in, so the 8-way mirroring effect of the pie is cancelled out (thus, the sun is actually a whole thing and not just an eighth of a sun mirrored eight times, otherwise things wouldn't go right when it got spat out the other wormhole). I can't even imagine what kind of weird things might happen if you walked into this column.
A very good explanation, I like it!

However, I think it is a little far-fetched (Though I'm probably again wrong) - where did the wormhole come from?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-06-2003 at 12:31 AM]

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06-06-2003 at 12:26 AM
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Ha! Far-fetched...I like that one ag :P And yes, I think everything would melt if there was a normal sun. Therefore, I believe that there is more of a cold fusion system. Now, the tricky part is following along. The sun is really so cold (try -1K) that the atoms creating it just sit around melding into each other, with no vibrations. Gravity still works though. So, they become frozen together. Eventually, the volume shrinks to where the uprising air currents from the volcano cause it to be sucked back in, releasing massive amounts of energy to be released into the surrounding area, enough to keep it going on for a day.

Well, I guess this may have been a bit far-fetched as well...but how would the Eighthers not fry?

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06-06-2003 at 04:18 AM
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zex20913 wrote:
It sounds like you have a "center pole" instead of a North pole, and a southern border, instead of a south pole, and the whole thing seems cylindrical.
I'd say the world's topology is conical, actually. Think of a flat pie-shaped pie of paper: you bend one corner of the flat edge around to the other corner, and the paper has wrapped into a cone.

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06-06-2003 at 05:01 AM
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zex20913 wrote:
...but how would the Eighthers not fry?
Their sun doesn't have to be as big as our sun, or be as hot.

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06-06-2003 at 05:03 AM
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agaricus5
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zex20913 wrote:
Ha! Far-fetched...I like that one ag :P And yes, I think everything would melt if there was a normal sun. Therefore, I believe that there is more of a cold fusion system.
Cold fusion?! Cold fusion doesn't make things any cooler, especially not to -1 kelvin (0 kelvin is absolute zero, so you cannot cool anything to below this point)! Cold fusion is a process allowing you to use fusion to have a net positive energy output, which would yield large abounts of heat energy. :)

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-06-2003 at 11:11 AM]

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Well then...since it is "the cherry dimension", which is different from ours, scientific things don't necessarily need to work. :P For all you know, they could be lithium based life forms. And I suppose I should have called it "very cold fusion" because I really didn't know too much about just plain old cold.

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06-06-2003 at 12:45 PM
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Lithium based life forms?

If they aren't like on Earth then they probably have different elements. Maybe the sun problem can be solved by making it out of octogen, which emits bright light but not much heat. And the main metal in the ground is octarium.

Maybe they even have Budkinium, discovered by one of Beethro's ancestors... I think we need some more about the chemistry of the Eighth.

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06-06-2003 at 02:09 PM
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agaricus5
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krammer wrote:
Lithium based life forms?

If they aren't like on Earth then they probably have different elements.
Different names or actually different elements?

Maybe the sun problem can be solved by making it out of octogen, which emits bright light but not much heat. And the main metal in the ground is octarium.
Where does all the energy come from? - to make something glow needs a lot of energy.

Maybe they even have Budkinium, discovered by one of Beethro's ancestors... I think we need some more about the chemistry of the Eighth.
Hmm... why not?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-06-2003 at 07:30 PM]

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06-06-2003 at 07:29 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
Where does all the energy come from? - to make something glow needs a lot of energy.

Not necessarily...would you consider that a light bulb glows? If so, it only requires 100 Watts. Perhaps there is a mechanism like this allowing the sun to "glow". Now, heat is a different story.

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06-06-2003 at 09:38 PM
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ErikH2000 wrote:
And the sunhole *is* centered on the north pole. It's a big volcano in the middle of the ocean.

-Erik

That brings up another question...

Since the north pole and the south pole are connected, will one during daytime see the interior of the sun all the way around the southern border?

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06-06-2003 at 09:54 PM
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zex20913 wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
Where does all the energy come from? - to make something glow needs a lot of
energy.
Not necessarily...would you consider that a light bulb glows? If so, it only
requires 100 Watts. Perhaps there is a mechanism like this allowing the sun to
"glow". Now, heat is a different story.

Do you actually know what a "watt" is?

It's a unit of power. This is a measure of how much energy something converts over a period of time (usually from something to heat energy).

Power = Energy / Time, so

1 Watt = 1 Joule / 1 Second

Meaning that a 100 watt light bulb converts 100 joules of electricity to heat and light energy every second.

If we assume, logically, that the brightness of the light on and the temperature of the "pie" is fairly similar to the Earth's, then the sun will need to provide around 1000 Watts of power per square metre of land or sea because this is the amount of solar radiation the Earth's surface gets on average(Don't forget - space is really cold). Now imagine how large the pie is - what is its surface area? If we estimate it to be very small (compared to many planets) - about 10000 square kilometres, or 10000000 square metres, then the sun will need to provide at least 10^10 (10,000,000,000) Watts or 10,000,000,000 Joules of energy per second. If it's up there for half a day, 12 hours, or 43200 seconds, then it will spew out 4.32 * 10^14 joules of energy a day (432,000,000,000,000).

Now how many light-bulbs is that?

P.S In this light, my explanation far above about superheated plasma doesn't work (I don't think such a high-energy gas could go anywhere near the "pie" without vaporising it) :D

Finally, I'm sorry for any offence caused to you zex - I only meant it to be another friendly argument. :P


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06-06-2003 at 10:23 PM
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Hey agaricus5, did you do the geek test in this thread?

I think you win. :)


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06-06-2003 at 10:31 PM
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Watcher wrote:
Since the north pole and the south pole are connected, will one during daytime see the interior of the sun all the way around the southern border?
That's right. Elsewhere in the thread, I mentioned:

"The perimeter of the disc would be a glowing wall rising perpendicular into space. This wall would be brightest at the height of the sun, making a ring of light along the southern border. As you travel up the tube it gets dark and eventually pitch black with the surface far below, smaller than a dot. No stars or other heavenly bodies are visible."

...so I think you and I independantly came to the same conclusion, which is encouraging for me.

-Erik

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06-06-2003 at 10:42 PM
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heehee...I think there should be more than one geek test...but yes, I do know what a watt is. I was just pointing out the glow thing. There was no mention of the sun's luminosity, nor of its actual heat either. You are basing all of your arguments on the human logic, and that limits your views, ag. You bring up very, VERY good arguments with this, but there still remains the point that the cherry dimension is different. (The launching of the sun, the eight kaleidoscopic (sp) pieces, the south border, etc.) You need to allow for such things as: the Eighthers are cold-blooded, making them not need as much heat as humans. The Eighthers have eyes adjusted to less light, as Fremen have to more. So on and so forth. I am not saying that any of this is the absolute truth, just to keep an open mind, beyond human logic and physics.

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06-06-2003 at 10:46 PM
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P.S. I'm just trying for some friendly argument as well. :) I think you're winning.

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06-06-2003 at 10:47 PM
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zex20913 wrote:
heehee...I think there should be more than one geek test...but yes, I do know what a watt is. I was just pointing out the glow thing. There was no mention of the sun's luminosity, nor of its actual heat either. You are basing all of your arguments on the human logic, and that limits your views, ag. You bring up very, VERY good arguments with this, but there still remains the point that the cherry dimension is different. (The launching of the sun, the eight kaleidoscopic (sp) pieces, the south border, etc.) You need to allow for such things as: the Eighthers are cold-blooded, making them not need as much heat as humans. The Eighthers have eyes adjusted to less light, as Fremen have to more. So on and so forth. I am not saying that any of this is the absolute truth, just to keep an open mind, beyond human logic and physics.
Good point - it's true that all I've been doing is to argue, dispute and force yet more "realism" out of this idea, and it's not even mine! :cigar
I suppose I'd better stop "ruining" it for Erik and just back off a little... :(

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zex20913 wrote:
P.S. I'm just trying for some friendly argument as well. :) I think you're winning.
Oh, you posted while I composed...

But you see, with someone openly discussing the problem and pushing it away from human logic, it helps to leave the "cherry" dimension open to improvement from everyone's imaginations, rather than constrained behind scientific arguments all the time. :D

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BTW, my theory was totally unscientific. Just stuff I thought up off the top of my head, that seems realistic.

So, what would happen if a space explorer were to try to get into the Eighth? The problem with a wrap-around construction like this one is that it's a closed loop; there's no way in and no way out, 'cause you just keep going around in circles. What happens if you try to approach it from the outside?

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06-06-2003 at 11:28 PM
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Hmm...I wonder...can a person simply step beyond the south border and continually fall? Or is there a wall to stop them from doing this?

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06-06-2003 at 11:40 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
Good point - it's true that all I've been doing is to argue, dispute and force yet more "realism" out of this idea, and it's not even mine! :cigar
No, it's not like that at all, Wesley. As far as I'm concerned, this has all been playful speculation. There's no harm in having some arguments for fun. And making creative assumptions is entirely appropriate when the starting premises I've given are so spare.

-Erik


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06-06-2003 at 11:40 PM
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Sokko wrote:
BTW, my theory was totally unscientific. Just stuff I thought up off the top of my head, that seems realistic.

So, what would happen if a space explorer were to try to get into the Eighth? The problem with a wrap-around construction like this one is that it's a closed loop; there's no way in and no way out, 'cause you just keep going around in circles. What happens if you try to approach it from the outside?
Almost exactly what I asked, except in reverse...

ErikH2000 wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
but what if you orbited in a circular orbit perpendicular to the pie surface?


Hmm. Not sure I understand. You can't go around the surface because of the surrounding south wall at the perimeter of the disc. You could travel in a circle with your axis at the North Pole. Then you would see the same terrain repeating.


A wall? So how did anything ever manage to land on this "pie slice" in the first place then - it can't have just "appeared" from nowhere, unless, that is, if somehow an absolutely huge amount of energy managed to turn itself into matter as it passed within the "edge" of the "pie"?

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06-07-2003 at 12:29 AM
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Sorry, I'm not finished yet! :D

ErikH2000 wrote:
Watcher wrote:
Given that the sun comes out of a hole in the ground somewhere in the Eighth, one would see eight suns in the sky, just like one would see eight copies of oneself when close to the north pole. Unless the sun is right above the north pole.
Yep, you got the idea. And the sunhole *is* centered on the north pole. It's a big volcano in the middle of the ocean.

-Erik
Directly over the north pole?

Why doesn't the sun implode to the centre point either? (I still think that you can't have such an implosion without such a huge gravitational field that the entire pie would be attracted to it and become compressed itself) :)

ErikH2000 wrote:
Watcher wrote:
Since the north pole and the south pole are connected, will one during daytime see the interior of the sun all the way around the southern border?
That's right. Elsewhere in the thread, I mentioned:

"The perimeter of the disc would be a glowing wall rising perpendicular into space. This wall would be brightest at the height of the sun, making a ring of light along the southern border. As you travel up the tube it gets dark and eventually pitch black with the surface far below, smaller than a dot. No stars or other heavenly bodies are visible."

...so I think you and I independantly came to the same conclusion, which is encouraging for me.

-Erik
Yes, but if the sun's material is all over the Southern "border", then why does it not fry the inhabitants near there? (Does the intensity of the light become less?)
After all, it does boil the seas :P

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06-10-2003 at 08:48 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
Yes, but if the sun's material is all over the Southern "border", then why does it not fry the inhabitants near there? (Does the intensity of the light become less?)
Yeah, of course. The only sunlight that reaches the south end must come through the pinpoint at the north, where it is dispersed all along the southern border. I'd imagine that's not very much energy at any given spot.

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06-10-2003 at 09:09 PM
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