Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hold complete!

I reached Gray Strides with 6950 HP, estimated damage 6250. My stats were 821 ATK, 750 DEF, 28k GR (I could have used the altar twice more, but didn't bother), 52k REP (I used the REP store only once, for the Attack Emblem). I can also boost my stats by killing the Adder in 1S2W and using the Elixir in the same room to get back more HP than the Adder takes away. One-time accessories used up: the first Elixir, the Pickaxe (in BS 2S -- it seemed worth it even with the force arrows gone), Wall Walking (in BS 1S1W, obviously) and the Warp Token (to get the RBS and Oremite Sword).

Level 6 seems well-balanced with the above changes, and Level 7 seems to be fine already, except for the hot-tile problem I already fixed. The only oops is that both levels' bosses are wimps -- Kekkaijin did 160 damage before getting the Knight Shield, zero with it. Asha's damage was around 300. But if I beef up their stats, Hard difficulty might become too difficult (as might the optional challenge of beating Asha after the stat-doubling). So, if anyone reaches these bosses on Hard, please post your stats.

Level 8 is okay, but I can see room for improvement. The entrance needs accessory slots -- having them at the end of Level 7 is still more annoying than it needs to be. The yellow key in 2N1W is on a trapdoor and beyond the red gate, so you can't drop the red gate and can't reach 2N2W and the main part of 2N3W. In 2S2W, the reward for killing the Rock Giant seems insufficient, given that the ATK gem will be destroyed anyway. (This also goes for the potions in 1S1W, but there, it gives the player the choice of using up the Portable Orb.)

I'm going to make the REP store's fourth option 1000 HP for 10000 REP, since 500 HP is very little at this stage. Because I found it easy to get blue keys on the later levels, I won't make the second altar require only a green key on Normal. In fact, I'm rather stumped for ideas for differences between the difficulties on Levels 7 and 8. I don't want to make Gray Strides easier, because it was rather satisfying that I had to play the whole level, and get the RBS and Oremite Shield, before I could defeat him.

Finally, I'm just about ready to stat up the optional boss (the reward for leaving accessories unused). The RBS and Oremite Shield require either the Warp Token or both Portable Orbs, so the optional boss will also be reachable using either. I'll make defeating it require all of the RBS, Oremite Shield, Invisibility Potion and Speed Potion -- and I'll put it on a door to make it invulnerable to the Hand Bomb. Of course, I want this boss to be possible to defeat on both difficulties, so it would be great if someone could complete Hard and give me their final stats....

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-18-2012 09:53 PM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
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Since the Wall-Walking and Warp Token thing a both products of my some-what dubious design, I guess I'll throw in some ways to improve them.

The two caches in BS 2S1W were pretty much designed to use the Wall Walk, and be one or the other. Looking back, it's kind of stupid. Remove keys all but the Skeleton Key in one of the caches, and in the other remove the Skeleton Key. That should slightly balance out the choice on taking one of the caches. However, I still think making it so you can only get one set of goodies is the best thing to do.

Alternately, remove the Skeleton Keys from both caches, and fit in a third with a Skeleton Key instead of an accessory.

As for the Warp Token thing, it stops people who warped past the boosting orb from getting the strongest weapons, preventing them from completely wreaking the final level.

Finally, you could make the final levels the same on both difficulties, since the other differences will have added up by now.

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Qzvlkx?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I did, after all, find some important changes to be made to Level 7. 1N3W now has a wall so that if you get the blue key for only one yellow, taking three Aumtlich beam hits, the beam doesn't stop you crossing the room afterwards. I reconfigured the gates in the NW corner of 1S1W so that after solving the puzzle and reaching this room from the other side, access becomes open for much easier backtracking.

I moved the accessory slots from RG 3S6W to NF Entrance, and moved the slots in BS Entrance for easier backtracking.

NF 2N1W and 2S2W are fixed, and the REP merchant offers 1000 HP for 10000 REP.

In BS 2S1W, my preferred solution is simply to remove the cache containing the Hand Bomb. As you said a couple of pages back, these are going unused because there aren't many great places to use them -- both Adders are proofed against them. The only really good place to use one is on Gray Strides himself so I'm fine with there being only one in the hold. (But let me know if this isn't okay with you. I know I'm already doing way too much tinkering.)

I've also switched round the Speed Potion in the remaining cache with the Invisibility Potion gained for killing the Adder in NF 1S2W. Since the optional boss will require one of each potion, I don't want it to be essential to use the WW here to get them both -- but I would like it to be essential to kill the Adder, who is pretty tough after the stat-doubling.

I don't have a problem with the way NF 1S3W is set up -- I think it's ideal.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-19-2012 07:59 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Sorry, I still keep finding things I want to tweak

But some of these tweaks make rooms harder, so I'm reluctant to just go ahead, in case it breaks Hard difficulty. I'd welcome a second opinion on all these changes, but especially from anyone who's got this far on Hard. (And this time I'll leave it a few days to give you a chance to get that far.)

* RG 3S3W: The pressure plate guarded by the first Seep opens all four doors (and is the only way to open the first door), so the other three Seep have no purpose. This was one of my rooms, and I really don't know what the fegundo I was thinking. Could I make it so you need to step on all four plates, or reconfigure it in some other way?

* In the same room, the blue key is so expensive (yellow + green + eight Slayer hits) that I never thought it worth getting. I'm considering making it cheaper on Normal difficulty, which could be this level's difference between the difficulties. Or should I make it easier on both?

* RG 1S2W (hyperme). The Store Horror 2.0s need 490 ATK to kill taking one hit, or 980 after stat-doubling. Both seem just out of reach even ignoring the oremites, considering other people's stats posted in this topic. So it's a flat 1000 damage for each gem, and I don't think that would ever be worth it -- as well as seeming like too much for making the Altar available, given the cost of a blue key as well. May I tone them down, either on Normal difficulty or both?

* BS 2S1W (again -- sorry!) I found it too easy to get blue and skeleton keys on the last two levels, meaning I never had to think about whether to go for any of the difficult ones. (This might not be true on Hard, considering that extra blue keys are required in three places, two of them optional. Although better players can use one blue key less in CC 3N1W.) So I'm tempted to replace this Wubba with a Dark Wubba....

* NF filler rooms (1N--1N2W). Okay, I had to leave 1N until later, but I could get everything in the other two as soon as I reached them. It feels like too much good stuff to be given at once. Is it okay to tone this down a bit?

* Similarly, 1S gives you way too much free stuff when you reach 660 ATK. I'd like to tone this down, but I'm worried it might make Hard difficulty impossible

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50th Skywatcher

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Yeah, go ahead at cut the Store Horror's attack. And maybe defense on normal. That should make the gems an option if you spent all your money on HP at the alter or something.

Filler Room Keys: Maybe make a blue key needed to access the first level of rewards? Also make the second level of rewards need a yellow key.

Filler Room Money: Yeah this is completely outclassed by the altar. Maybe you could change it so that the Sinks have stats based on your current GR? Alternately, strip out the room and make it into 'The Goblin Bazaar!', which sells keys at stupidly exorbitant prices.

NF 1S: Maybe replace an inner skipper with a 'Big Skipper' with more power, and replace the corner skippers with Little Skippers. This could make going for the corners more, uh, tempting?

BS 2S1W: yeah power up that Wubba.


In regards to the Bonus Boss, will you factor in the Attack and Defense Emblems? Each one provides a 10% boost to it's respective stat while equipped.

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[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress.drh (71.4 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

Excellent ideas. In the attached version:

* RG 3S3W: Each pressure plate opens only one door. To partially compensate, if you kill the Gel Mother, you can attack one Seep without going via the oremites. I removed the disarm token, which was pointless as you could just step on it twice to cancel its effect.

* In the same room, the yellow and green doors are replaced by two yellows. On Normal difficulty, the doors move so you take fewer hits from the Slayer. Now that I know it's possible to get enough stats to kill the Slayer, you get a score checkpoint for doing so.

* BS 1S2W Wubba replaced with Dark Wubba

* Store Horror 2.0 has 250 ATK, not 500 (it has the "No enemy defense" property, so the fact that you will have more than 250 DEF when you face them doesn't matter).

* NF 1N--1N2W: reduced ATK/DEF gains in all rooms. 1N1W requires a blue key to get anything. 1N2W costs double (the variable "sink" is initialised in this room, so no, anyone already testing doesn't need to start from the beginning).

* NF 1S has fewer gems, Waterskippers moved to the corners to make the gems more tempting even before killing the brain, and one Waterskipper blocking the brain replaced with a Big Seep.

So... is Hard difficulty still completable?

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Normal difficulty is still completable, even with the extra Slayer score checkpoint. This isn't optimised (for one thing, I forgot about NF 2N2W and took potions as soon as I got the RBS, so I couldn't use that room at all) but I can now finish with:

11735 HP, 925 ATK, 725 DEF, 5k GR, 48k REP, keys 28/10/0 (plus one blue after killing the Slayer).

Estimated damage: 6320 for Slayer, 5100 for Gray Strides.

* * *

And now I've completed an optimised playthrough of Normal difficulty -- I don't claim that my decision-making process was perfect, and there were some clear mistakes, but optimised in the sense that I planned carefully at every stage, and managed to achieve landmarks such as not using the first Elixir. My final stats were:

29538 HP (plus 2 x 6476 from Elixirs, 9 x 1000 from REP merchant), 1084 ATK, 812 DEF, keys 33/13/3/2. The Slayer did 3388 damage, Gray Strides 3664.

I wrote a full journal for this playthrough; feel free to PM me if you want to see it.

Observations during this playthrough:

* Firstly, this is a really good hold -- I think the team as a whole should be congratulated! It was satisfying to solve originally and to feel I was gradually making a little more progress each time I tried; and it was satisfying to go back and optimise afterwards. The optimised playthrough remained interesting, needing careful thought, all the way to the end -- in the last level, I had to use both the Lucky Blade and Hook (later RBS), and both the Flippers and Attack Emblem; this led to some very interesting decisions about how to reach ATK targets for each combination. The only thing I don't like about the hold is that Hard difficulty pretty much requires solving the DROD-like puzzles in the Collapsed Chamber.

* I spotted a couple of further minor tweaks to be made, nothing game-affecting. For instance, in DS 1N4E, I should make the pressure plate open both black gates for easier backtracking. A way to move between the floor and the water in this room would also be a good idea.

* Kekkaijin was not nearly such a wimp this time, mainly because I didn't use the Level 6 altar at all. I think he could do with beefing up a little, all the same.

* I had been worried that the stat-doubling orb, which also quadruples monsters' GR and REP output, would make it too easy to get money, especially as this combines with the Lucky Blade to make any monsters left alive in the early levels worth eight times their normal GR. However, it worked out fine -- I did get a lot of money, but since the altar in this hold increases exponentially (unlike the one in Tendry's Tale, which is quadratic), this didn't give too much ATK away. To be precise, in this playthrough I purchased five ATK upgrades before getting the Lucky Blade, three immediately after my Lucky Blade killing spree, and another two later on.

* That said, it's a little annoying that I finished with 30,000 greckles, the next upgrade requiring 59,000. I could have made that target, by killing the Adders and Rock Giants at the end with the Lucky Blade -- but it wouldn't have been worth it. I'm going to add, in the post-Gray Strides area, a merchant selling unlimited yellow keys, so your leftover GR won't be wasted. It's true that the player can then get keys and go back and use them in the main part of the hold -- but once you reach Gray Strides there's no shortage of yellow keys anyway.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-23-2012 12:55 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

So, I'm trying to get through this on normal, and I've hit a wall at the Collapsed Chamber. It's seems that every possible problem that could come up in a project like this came up in this level. I mean the entire thing is horrible.

Firstly, most rooms have high end monsters or brains. If you haven't sucked up every gem and potion in the previous levels, this is going to hit you hard.

Secondly, the northern area is effectively composed of two one-way loops. While the main loop is fairly easy to traverse, aside from that damnable mimic room, the side loop is kind of nasty, especially given that you can't see 1N1E in advance.

Third, 2S2W. Why? It's simply designed to punish imperfect play, or eat the Invisibility potion. Sure it's a challenge. But it's another large difficulty bump.

I'll give it another shot, and maybe have some more comments tomorrow.

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Qzvlkx?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Yes, that level is very tough. I usually do 2S2W first; if I haven't optimised, then I walk through the Soulless' swords and kill the brain, which loses 2 ATK and 2 DEF that you can get eventually, but that's not too bad as punishment. I can't do that mimic room at all, so I just leave it until I have 150 ATK.

I'm not sure what to suggest, since I don't want to upset the overall balance too much -- but if you have any particular suggestions for improvements, feel free to suggest them

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress.drh (69.4 KB)
Downloaded 40 times.
License: Public Domain

I sense another update coming, so I've made a few miscellaneous changes so that I don't make too many changes at once and then forget to list them all.

* Level intro texts now work correctly (each displays only the first time you enter the level). Slightly improved some texts.

* All hidden rooms are correctly marked as hidden, and DS 3S3W is removed.

* First six bosses' score checkpoints don't activate if you skip them and come back later. Asha's still does -- he's a special case because skipping him requires hitting the stat-doubling orb.

* Slayer's and Gray Strides' score checkpoints don't activate if you use the Hand Bomb.

* Scripted dialogue for Asha if you skip him and return; made his script restart on entry so this dialogue displays even if you activated the first dialogue, and also so that doubling his HP actually works.

* Kekkaijin no longer sets music to Seaside on defeat (this slipped in by accident when I was copy-pasting the score checkpoint script).

* DS 1N4E: pressure plate opens both black gates and two new red gates connecting floor and water, making backtracking easier.

* CC 3N: added orb opening green door (same as Blondbeard's hot-tile problem; the choice of taking the Swordsman's hit wasn't much of a choice since he would still be there).

* CC 3S1W: added DEF and HP to give the player more choice, but you can only take one thing.

* DS 1N3E: changed one Little Waterskipper back to Waterskipper -- not one that blocks your passage, but one that makes it harder to get everything for free.

* NF 1W: for the same reason, replaced two Seep with Big Seep.

* NF 1N--1N2W and 2N: reduced HP gain.

* BS 2S1E: there's no gain for killing the second Rock Giant here. I added an easter egg -- he has a little dialogue if you one-shot his partner.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-29-2012 03:10 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

BIG UPDATE!

First and foremost, the Lost Treasure Vault is fully functional, and includes the final power square, the hold's exit staircase, the optional boss, and some civilians whose speech varies depending on how far you've progressed towards beating said boss. His stats are set so that with my own non-optimal stats, I could beat him with both potions, but with my best stats, I could beat him with just the Invisibility Potion (allowing me to hold the Attack Emblem during the fight for a higher score).

Oh, and there's scripting in the room to prevent you from using the Hand Bomb on him

Other changes:

* After looking back through the topic, including sample stats from other testers, I decided not to beef up Kekkaijin and Asha. It wouldn't be fair to make them harder just because I can now optimise the earlier levels better. Instead, I included another easter egg: if you face Kekkaijin with 345 DEF (enough that he cannot hurt you) he runs away. You don't miss out on the score checkpoint -- he gets stuck by the blue door in the next room.

* RG 1W -- I never liked one exit from the first room of the level being blocked by a Pirate on oremites, inevitably too strong an enemy for when you first enter the room. The oremites are gone on Normal difficulty.

* FT 1N1E -- replaced Mud Mother with Tar Mother, a suggestion made at the time but overlooked.

* NF 2N -- removed the keys at the top, also suggested at the time as they were left there by mistake.

* RG 2S3W -- added second Big Seep, as this blue key is too cheap with only one (especially in comparison to 3S3W!)

* NF 1N1W -- sorry to keep tinkering. I moved the doors again so you don't need to use a blue key to get anything, but you do need to use one to get everything.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress.drh (78.4 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

A few more miscellaneous changes. (I apologise for the frequency of updates; I just keep spotting things I want to tinker with! But I promise this is absolutely the last one until I get feedback from those testing the hold.)

* All bosses now have the correct blood (or Slayer) splatter on defeat!

* FT 1N1W: Changed the scroll explaining about the hot tile changing its percentage -- it now does a constant 35%. There was no point. If you step on it at all, it will be just three times, with nothing else changing your HP in between, and 65 x 66 x 67 is so close to 65 x 65 x 65 as to make no difference.

* DS 1N1W: Oremite goblin has a little dialogue, making his running away a bit less out-of-the-blue.

* CC 3W: Nothing changed yet, but could do with some thinking about. Currently, there is no gain for killing the enemies here, and so no purpose to the room.

* BS 2S1W: Yeah, I keep changing my mind about this room. I've put it back to two stashes, the Invisibility Potion in one and a skeleton key in the other, which is closer to what hyperme suggested just now. I replaced the blue key in each stash with another green and yellow, as I feel blue / skeleton keys are too easily available towards the end of the hold, making the more difficult ones (like RG 3S3W) not worth bothering about.

* RG 3S3W: Another easter egg. Slayer has a little dialogue if you enter the room, with him still alive, after beating the optional boss.

* NF 1S3W: Added an extra obstacle to proof the RBS against Pickaxe theft.

* The REP store now costs 20,000 per purchase.

* LTV 1E: Citizens' scripts restart on entry, so you can get all their dialogue in one playthrough. Added a "set variable" so the player won't talk about being stumped by the doors in 1S1E if he's opened the first one.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-01-2012 10:10 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

So... no downloads yet? Anyone else still testing this?

(Again, if I've put people off with too many updates, I apologise. I'm not touching it any more except in response to feedback, and to add the final touches that still need doing -- like proper sprites for the Attack and Defense Emblems.)

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50th Skywatcher

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

been caught be with stuff for things. but after tomorrow I'll have time to screw around and also play the hold through again.

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Qzvlkx?

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I will test it, I really will. But it won't be anytime real soon (I think).

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Well, it's been one month since the last update. I'm going to move this to Architecture to see if it gets more attention there. I've only made one further change: I put an additional altar in CC 3W, finally utilising that space and also making this level easier to get past, as even with all the recent changes, it is probably the hardest level in the hold.

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50th Skywatcher