agaricus5
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Just discovered a minor problem - the Level 4 introduction is a bit repetitive.

If you saw that as well, ignore it. I really need some sleep!

More editing: L4 1N 1E needs some checkpoints. If you have the patience to do the room all the way through, then it's okay, but if not, I suggest (if you have your own editable copy) that you add in some yourself. I will do this for the final version.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-14-2004 at 12:12 AM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-14-2004 at 12:22 PM GMT]

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
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Apart from what I posted earlier, I found no problems on level 3. Even 1N was relatively easy after a night's sleep. You already mentioned the biggest problem on level 4 (the missing checkpoint), but here are the rest of my observations:

1S: Some of the orbs seem unnecessary.
1S2W: Despite being possible, this room feels unfinished. It is perhaps also too similar to 1S1W.
1N: You forgot to put a trap door under one of the arrows. Not that it has any effect.

In 1N1E on level 5, it's impossible to get from the south entrance to the east one.

agaricus5
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Three more structural problems with the hold:

In L7 1S 5E, you can't step on the last trapdoor behind the force arrow (I'll replace it with a roach).

In L10 1N 1E/1N 2E, you can't leave 1N 1E from the east passage.

In L10 1S 2E, you can't leave north from the east exit.

Apologies about these. I will fix them all for the final release.

I'm going to be naughty and skip to L13 for now (I'd better test it now, just in case there are any bugs. Complicated rooms always take ages to fix.)

The L13 description contains a spelling error.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-14-2004 at 07:18 PM GMT]

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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I'm struggling on 1S1E on level 5. Considering that 2S on level 2 is the only other rooms so far that I've found as difficult, I guess I just suck at using mimics.

Apart from that and the impossible 1N1E (it might be possible from the east entrance, but since you can't get there without the editor, that would be pointless) and found no more problems.

I've only taken a quick glance at level 6, but noticed that 1S2E is impossible.

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
I'm struggling on 1S1E on level 5. Considering that 2S on level 2 is the only other rooms so far that I've found as difficult, I guess I just suck at using mimics.

I agree. It is tricky to look at four different parts of the screen at the same time and not die.

I've only taken a quick glance at level 6, but noticed that 1S2E is impossible.

Also very trivial (if fixed). There's a roach on the left side of the queen. I would suggest using the editor to play 1S 1E, which is solvable.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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I decided to put off completeing 1S1E in level 5, like I did with 2S in level 2. I know what I'm supposed to do in both, but have failed to do it. I'll return to them later, perhaps after I've completed level 7. Here are my thoughts on level 6:

1N2W: I only managed to clear this room with the help of irrational brained movement. I stood on the closing gate when hitting the last ord and then stepped back, leaving the roaches at the corner and the queen in the opposite one. It was then easy to clear the room after hitting the next to last orb. Is it possible to catch the queen in a more conventional way? I couldn't do it.

1S1E: I have no idea how to solve this. I haven't managed to kill more than one monster. Could you give some sort of hint for this one?

1S3E: A checkpoint would be helpful, but isn't necessary.

The other rooms were all OK, but you might want to consider swapping places for 1E and 3E. 3E is the easiest of all the rooms here IMO (except for 4E of course), so it would fit in better as the first bottleneck in this level.

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
1N2W: I only managed to clear this room with the help of irrational brained movement. I stood on the closing gate when hitting the last ord and then stepped back, leaving the roaches at the corner and the queen in the opposite one. It was then easy to clear the room after hitting the next to last orb. Is it possible to catch the queen in a more conventional way? I couldn't do it.

Do you mean 1N 2E?

I don't know what you mean about how you killed that queen. Could you please e-mail me a demo of it?

1S1E: I have no idea how to solve this. I haven't managed to kill more than one monster. Could you give some sort of hint for this one?

I'll e-mail you with it.

1S3E: A checkpoint would be helpful, but isn't necessary.

Considered.

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gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

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Just to let you know - I haven't forgotton about testing. Right now, a combination of my work and other previous commitments are slowing me down a bit , but I have been able to test your hold still, just not as much as I had hoped too. Right now, all of my comments are in a text file that I'll post when finished.

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agaricus5
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I'm very upset now.

L13 1S 5E has my construction left inside it - I forgot to remove it. The trapdoors give the solution away, I'm afraid.

The room is solvable without them, of course, although they do make it much easier than was intended. Please keep this version of the room secret, since giving it away will completely spoil the puzzle.

In addition, it also contains an empty scroll. I have no idea what it was supposed to say, but it will be removed later.

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HSE
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 162
Registered: 04-09-2004
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Please keep this version of the room secret

Sure. I'll do the same as I did with Level 13 itself (remember)?
As for the beta-testing, I'm at a friends for a few days because of some school projects. I won't be able to test for a few days, sorry.

agaricus5
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Problem with L13 2S 3E - I have put an older version of the room here (The infamous L4 1S in older versions) with no extra checkpoints. There are only 10 inside the tar mass at the moment, but this should increase to something like 15-20 when I re-edit the room. The bug where you don't need to collapse all the trapdoors is also still there, which I will also fix shortly.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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The difficulty has increased so much that I've moved to "plan B", and am now playing all levels to save time. Level 10 is the one I'm making most progress on ATM. I don't really like the scrolls here, though. While it's interesting to know that 1S2E was inspired by the I-Ching contest, I feel that such outside of the hold information doesn't fit in here. Is the scroll in 1S4E a red herring? I didn't find it at all useful (although it was technically true since I never took the second invisibility potion).

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
The difficulty has increased so much that I've moved to "plan B", and am now playing all levels to save time.

Plan B?

Level 10 is the one I'm making most progress on ATM. I don't really like the scrolls here, though. While it's interesting to know that 1S2E was inspired by the I-Ching contest, I feel that such outside of the hold information doesn't fit in here.

Well, it is true, although I was just worried that someone might have noticed. It is my own room, though, so I suppose it's alright not to have a scroll in there.

Is the scroll in 1S4E a red herring? I didn't find it at all useful (although it was technically true since I never took the second invisibility potion).

Foiled again. All potions are meant to be taken.

That Brain will be moved.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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agaricus5 wrote:

Plan B?

Plan A was to play everything from the start like in any other hold. With a couple of exceptions, I followed this plan up to level 7.
Plan B is to take advantage of the warp room and complete all levels properly but in any order.
Plan C will be to take advantage of the editor and play rooms regardless of whether I've accessed them in the game or not. Hopefully it won't come to that, as the risk of missing something would increase a lot.

Is the scroll in 1S4E a red herring? I didn't find it at all useful (although it was technically true since I never took the second invisibility potion).

Foiled again. All potions are meant to be taken.

That Brain will be moved.

I think there's more to it than that, as the brain seemed just as useless as the potion. It was only a choice of which one to use to make the serpent move after I cleared everything else. I found no other purpose for either of them.

On Level 9 1N2E, I think the orb furthest to the east is not configured correctly. It is set to open a gate that is already open.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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Mikko wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:

Plan B?

Plan A was to play everything from the start like in any other hold. With a couple of exceptions, I followed this plan up to level 7.
Plan B is to take advantage of the warp room and complete all levels properly but in any order.
Plan C will be to take advantage of the editor and play rooms regardless of whether I've accessed them in the game or not. Hopefully it won't come to that, as the risk of missing something would increase a lot.

Plan C could be avoided by using the editor to create bypasses to troublesome rooms (Like L13, Entrance, I expect).

Is the scroll in 1S4E a red herring? I didn't find it at all useful (although it was technically true since I never took the second invisibility potion).

Foiled again. All potions are meant to be taken.

That Brain will be moved.

I think there's more to it than that, as the brain seemed just as useless as the potion. It was only a choice of which one to use to make the serpent move after I cleared everything else. I found no other purpose for either of them.

Well, you used the brain to activate the serpent, correct?

The idea involved not being able to activate the serpent until you took the second potion (thus making you visible), which would not happen if the brain was out of smelling radius. I assume you killed the serpent by standing near the brain after placing the first mimic, correct?

On Level 9 1N2E, I think the orb furthest to the east is not configured correctly. It is set to open a gate that is already open.

That was well spotted. Not having the orb close the door makes the room significantly easier.

Edit: Section 4 of Beethro's segment in L13 1S 4E contains (I think) a trivial solution - the orb can be hit very prematurely. At the moment, it's solvable (although the tar is complex to manage), but I'm going to find out if it can actually be done the way I intended. [continued] - It can't be done (at least, not to my eyes), but I've worked out a reasonable compromise - about 75-80% clearance shall be required.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-20-2004 at 11:15 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-21-2004 at 08:38 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-22-2004 at 10:02 AM GMT]

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
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It wasn't until now that I realised what was the intended solution to L10 1S4E. What I did was a lot easier. I ignored the NW thing and just used the fourth mimic to kill the serpent. I had first cleared the three chambers from roach queens, who never got to lay a single egg, with the second and third mimic. This was possible with one fo the mimics starting in of one chamber and ending up in another.

In L9 3E, Beethro can start the room on the green door if the player has taken the other route. There is no advantage to this, but it looks clumsy.


[Edited by Mikko on 07-21-2004 at 12:39 PM GMT]

agaricus5
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This bug will break L13 1N 5E when it is fixed in 1.7 to the extent that the actual solution will be made quite a lot easier, if I do not change it.

I'll consider whether or not to keep this room or modify it a bit to keep it consistent.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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The scroll in 1N1E in level 11 sounds a bit awkward. You could change the word "which" to "they" and make the comma in front of it a preiod.

I've had a thorough look at level 12. There are some inaccessible places and a couple that you can get stuck on. The only big problem is in 2N2E and 3N2E. If you take the fifth passage from the west between them, then you will have to use the restore screen to get back.

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
The scroll in 1N1E in level 11 sounds a bit awkward. You could change the word "which" to "they" and make the comma in front of it a preiod.

Thaks for the suggestion. I will check the storyline again when I fix the assorted problems with the hold.

I've had a thorough look at level 12. There are some inaccessible places and a couple that you can get stuck on. The only big problem is in 2N2E and 3N2E. If you take the fifth passage from the west between them, then you will have to use the restore screen to get back.

Oops. I put the buggy version instead of the fixed version in there by mistake. Since my DROD crashed, all my holds were jumbled around, and this was lost as well. I'd better ask Mike to make the fixed version (attached to the thread) editable.

Edit - Never mind. It turns out that I have a fixed version floating around in my DROD already.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-26-2004 at 08:50 PM GMT]

Addition - L8 1E is solvable, but the way it is designed means that any goblins you leave inside the northwest corner are not accessible once you leave that area. It's unlikely to happen if you are looking closely, but I obviously wasn't, so it happened to me.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-26-2004 at 08:55 PM GMT]

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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agaricus5 wrote:
I'm very upset now.

L13 1S 5E has my construction left inside it - I forgot to remove it. The trapdoors give the solution away, I'm afraid.

The room is solvable without them, of course, although they do make it much easier than was intended. Please keep this version of the room secret, since giving it away will completely spoil the puzzle.

In addition, it also contains an empty scroll. I have no idea what it was supposed to say, but it will be removed later.

I finally reached this room. Trap doors or not, it seems to be completely impossible, as there is nothing to kill the serpents with.

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
I'm very upset now.

L13 1S 5E has my construction left inside it - I forgot to remove it. The trapdoors give the solution away, I'm afraid.

The room is solvable without them, of course, although they do make it much easier than was intended. Please keep this version of the room secret, since giving it away will completely spoil the puzzle.

In addition, it also contains an empty scroll. I have no idea what it was supposed to say, but it will be removed later.

I finally reached this room. Trap doors or not, it seems to be completely impossible, as there is nothing to kill the serpents with.

Hmm...

There should be some orbs and doors. I must have focused so much on serpent alignment that I forgot to put them in as well as take the trapdoors out.

I'll sort it out.

Edit - also, does L12.5 1E seem a bit ugly to you?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-27-2004 at 03:53 PM GMT]

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agaricus5
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I must stop posting in here for a while - I'm taking up too many of the posts!

Well, as you beta-testing may know, I set the deadline for testing to be about 3 weeks after testing began. Almost 2 1/2 weeks have now passed since then, meaning that the testing is almost over.

However, due to the really nasty things that have popped up during playtesting, I'm going to start fixing things now, since complicated rooms always take ages to fix, with the additional problem of needing to re-test them as well.

So, I need to request now for a premature unloading of comments and progress from everyone involved who hasn't already done so, in order that I can try to fix as many problems as I can now, so that the hold will be ready to release as soon as possible.

What this means is that I need two things from you. First, I need to know how far you have progressed in the hold in terms of all the levels and rooms you have actually conquered and completed (not just visited). The second thing is that I need all of the comments you have up until now on anything (if you haven't already given them to me), so I can get to work fixing them or sorting them out. Either post them here, or if they are spoilery, then send me them in an e-mail.

Apart from that, I also would like some comments on the aesthetic qualities of the "storyline" levels, 11, 12.5 and 14, which admittedly were done in a hurry, and just didn't seem satisfactory when I looked at them for the second time. You don't need to have played up to that point to do this, just use the editor to have a look at the rooms for me.

Hopefully the hold and its story will be complete by next week. I will then send everyone who tested the beta a final version, Anyone-Edit, of course, in appreciation for your help.

Thanks for all your help up until now. I really wasn't expecting that I would actually be having a truly finished hold on my hands to release to the holds board, but it looks like I will do soon.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
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I've reported all problems as I've found them.

Here is a summary of my progress. I have ignored the rooms that I know are impossible.

Level 1: Completed everything
Level 2: Completed everything except 2S
Level 3: Completed everything
Level 4: Completed everything
Level 5: Completed everything except 1S1E
Level 6: Completed everything except 1S1E
Level 7: Completed 1N1E and 1S3E
Level 8: Completed everything except 1N3E and 1S4E
Level 9: Completed Entrance, 2E and 1N3E
Level 10: Completed everything except 1S1E and 1N4E
Level 11: Completed everything
Level 12: Did the maze in the editor
Level 12.5: Completed everything
Level 13: Completed Entrance, 1N1E, 1S1E, 1N3E, 2N3E, 1N4E, 4E and 5E
Level 14: Completed everything

I also completed L13 1N5E in an earlier version and I think the room has not been changed since.

Level 11 looks fine to me, except that there's nothing secret about the secret passage.

1E in level 12.5 is good, but the other rooms look too neat for a level like this. Making the corridor narrower and winding might be enough to fix it.

I like level 14 as it is.

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

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Gimme a couple of minutes...I just have to compile all my thoughts into one text file...

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gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

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File: Bavato's Dungeon Comments.txt (3.4 KB)
Downloaded 140 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Here are my comments for the hold, all compiled into one nice text file for your enjoyment.

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--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Here are my comments for the hold, all compiled into one nice text file for your enjoyment.

I've had a look, and it's exactly what I needed. Thanks. As I said, L11, 12.5 and 14 were very rushed (I had to build them from scratch in two days), so they will be improved when I scrutinize it with the comments I have so far.

Thanks for your help.

L14, incidentally, was the most minimalistic level I have ever made. The restriction was the narow 4 square width passage, and the puzzles had to have this constriction as their major theme. Sometimes simple and small can really be as effective as big and complex.

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agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
Here is a summary of my progress. I have ignored the rooms that I know are impossible.

Level 1: Completed everything
Level 2: Completed everything except 2S
Level 3: Completed everything
Level 4: Completed everything
Level 5: Completed everything except 1S1E
Level 6: Completed everything except 1S1E
Level 7: Completed 1N1E and 1S3E
Level 8: Completed everything except 1N3E and 1S4E
Level 9: Completed Entrance, 2E and 1N3E
Level 10: Completed everything except 1S1E and 1N4E
Level 11: Completed everything
Level 12: Did the maze in the editor
Level 12.5: Completed everything
Level 13: Completed Entrance, 1N1E, 1S1E, 1N3E, 2N3E, 1N4E, 4E and 5E
Level 14: Completed everything

Wow!

That's pretty much most of the hold!

All rooms in L13 except 1S 5E are solvable as they are now. 1N 5E will be changed to remove the Force Arrows and brains bug present in it.

Level 11 looks fine to me, except that there's nothing secret about the secret passage.

Well, I was petitioned not to have an overly secret passage, since mazes like L12 are basically not most people's idea of fun. So, it's a small side passage that's not very conspicuous, but not hidden.

I think I will leave it as it is, so that people can easily choose not to do L12 if they don't want to.

1E in level 12.5 is good, but the other rooms look too neat for a level like this. Making the corridor narrower and winding might be enough to fix it.

Excellent idea.

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agaricus5
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The final version, version 7.2, is almost complete, with the exception of one or two rooms.

There are still three testers who haven't posted their final comments and progress or sent them to me, and two of you haven't given me anything at all. Please, if you or anyone else have comments or progress reports to send me, please do it now, since I am unlikely to change anything once I release the final version, unless it is serious. In addition, if you haven't sent any comments since I started the beta testing, I can't really include you as beta-testers in the credits for the hold, since you will not actually have contributed to the beta testing.

When the hold is finished, I will send all testers who sent me comments or found bugs an Anyone Edit version of the hold, as I promised.

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gamer_extreme_101
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I was able to do Level 8, and here are the comments:
General - Yikes! These room were extremely hard yet suprising fun. You hit a good combination on this level.
1N1E - I have a room very similar like this to a hold I've been making. Great minds think alike, eh?
1S1E - This room is alot easier than I expected, and it could be harder. Then again, it was a nice break, but it may be suited for an easier level.
1S3E - The checkpoints in this level can be both a relief AND a cause of frustration. If you end up doing something wrong after a bit and you hit a checkpoint, you end up inside a very deep hole. If possible, which it may not be, as it requires a bit of a redo of the room, make the checkpoints optional.

That's it for my comments on the hold. You did an awesome job on it that I'm sure will raise the standards for new holds yet to be released!


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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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Thanks, everybody who helped!

As soon as this message is posted, I'm going off to upload Bavato's Dungeon for the first time to the Holds board. You can still find the old Testing Edition version here, should you want to make a comparison between the hold versions.

The major changes are mostly layout and structural ones, since the hold was totally turned inside out, and many rooms have been moved from their original locations. The hold has increased in size with new rooms (although some are just fillers to separate rooms with long solutions from each other). Some rooms, especially in earlier levels, have also been updated to make them more user-friendly or to remove guesswork from the solutions.

The other big change is that the hold has its storyline now fully integrated into it, for previously, story scrolls have not been accessible or removed. The ending, however, is very open-ended and perhaps not very satisfying by itself, but this is because I am deliberately leaving it open for a sequel (it will only come after 1.7, don't worry ).

So, for the final time (hopefully), enjoy the final release of Bavato's Dungeon.

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