eytanz
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Level 7 1W was a lot of fun. I solved it without having to restart from the very beginning - had I had to do so, I would have bit somewhat annoyed, but while optimizing movement was important, there was enough margin of error that the room ended up being very enjoyable rather than frustrating (I did have to back up a checkpoint towards the end because I ran out of moves, but the fact that, despite having made mistakes before I could be ultra-careful and succeed rather than be doomed to start all the way over pleased me a lot).

(if you saw what I said about 1N2W, forget it - I have no idea how I missed it)

[Edited by eytanz on 02-16-2004 at 02:57 AM GMT]

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eytanz
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As for L7 1N2W - I have no idea how to solve it - I'd appreciate a hint. I can get the serpent all the way through the obstacle course, but then it just replaces one of the other serpents and you aren't any closer to solving the room...

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agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:
As for L7 1N2W - I have no idea how to solve it - I'd appreciate a hint. I can get the serpent all the way through the obstacle course, but then it just replaces one of the other serpents and you aren't any closer to solving the room...

It is possible - I just did it.

However, it's a rather cruel puzzle, now that I look at it from a different perspective, because it requires you to do some backwards counting to understand the solution, so this will not be secreted.

Basically, the serpent you lead into the chamber with the others will replace one of them. The objective is to do it in such a way that it replaces the serpent so that the two heads are next to each other or the gap in the serpent loop, so they break out of formation and kill each other.

The serpent you guide is 36 squares long and the other two are both 16. You need to somehow shift the serpent-to-be-replaced's position relative to the backwards by 13-15 squares (Imagine it stopped moving for 13-15 squares while the other continued on as normal). You have to try to keep your serpent long enough to break into the loop, but the correct length so that its head is in the correct place(s) relative to the other to cause a collision.

I'll try to sit down to do the maths for you later, but the best way I can think of to help is to send a demo, because I think I worked out this room's solution partly by luck.

Good luck.

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agaricus5
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Watcher wrote:
Okay, here's a bit of feedback for L6 1S1W:

I'm not sure how difficult this is intended to be, but I found it rather easy. Here's what I did: I walked into the central room, then to the open NE room. I let the roaches just W of me into the long space in their corridor, and the roaches just S of me all the way to the last door. Then I went to the central chamber and let all roaches loose. The first two waves are easily dealt with, since they're only three roaches each, and the rest can be handled without too much trouble due to the brain behavior. Afterwards, I used the mimics to kill the brains. Probably not unintended, but easy compared to some of the other rooms on the level.

It's an unintentional - this room was intended to be one of the hardest in the level. I've checked, and it does look quite a difficult problem to solve. I've given the orb a move so that particular problem can be removed, but it may cause others later.

I'll have a think about how to deal with it, but it will take a long while for me to do , or I may not succeed, so if anyone's interested in helping me fix this room, then send me an e-mail/PM, and I'll send you the solution as it is supposed to be.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 02-16-2004 at 12:41 PM GMT]

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agaricus5
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Important Update.

I have just released Version 5.2, which contains a Level 8 that is finished (Level 8 was in the other version, but it needed completion and reshuffling).

Also contained in the hold are fixes for the scroll bugs found, and sort-of-fixes for Level 6 1S 1W and 1N 3E.

I have playtested Level 8, so all rooms are solvable (as far as I know), but there are one or two things you may wish to know:

This level is a tar-based level, but unfortunately, there is a lot of Tar clearance involved and quite a bit of slashfest (although more strategic, like Level 21 of Dugan's Dungeon). Many rooms also require lots of patience (My average time for one room is about 2 hours), so use the checkpoints provided to your advantage as save points if you do not have much time. Finally, 2E is one of those sort of rooms, but it is also a choke point. I apologise, and I'll try to make another linking passage so it can be bypassed until later.

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Watcher
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agaricus5 wrote:
sort-of-fixes for Level 6 1S 1W

Sorry, agaricus, but it's still easy, although you have to mess with the south chamber now. Also, I've just discovered that there's an even easier solution: Pick any of the groups of roaches whose corridor ends in the corner of the square. Let those roaches all the way to the door. Open for all roaches. Pick off the first three roaches, then stand on the trapdoor they passed over. You now have only one square to defend, and can easily take care of the remaining roaches.

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bandit1200
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Watcher wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
sort-of-fixes for Level 6 1S 1W

Sorry, agaricus, but it's still easy, although you have to mess with the south chamber now. Also, I've just discovered that there's an even easier solution: Pick any of the groups of roaches whose corridor ends in the corner of the square. Let those roaches all the way to the door. Open for all roaches. Pick off the first three roaches, then stand on the trapdoor they passed over. You now have only one square to defend, and can easily take care of the remaining roaches.

Actually there's an even simpler solution. Hit the orb, go stand on the NE trapdoor, kill the roaches from that corridor, and you still have enough moves left to turn round to get to the others. Basically the same as Watcher's way, except you don't have to bother getting any roaches to a door before hitting the orb.
I *like* 'em this easy.

Edit: The same strategy works using the SE trapdoor

[Edited by bandit1200 on 02-17-2004 at 07:56 PM GMT]

bandit1200
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I just got around to playing with level 5 and I'm finding it more frustrating than difficult. The reason being that there are a number of places where it's possible to leave a room for the next room and find yourself stuck with no way to backtrack, necessitating trips to the restore screen. Dead ends are ok, but not when they leave you dead.

Level 6:1E I enjoyed, but 2E is where I would have stopped playing if it weren't an anyone edit hold. I haven't found it possible to do this one and the green door would prevent me taking a break in 1N 3E, which, btw, made me think a bit more in it's latest incarnation.

agaricus5
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bandit1200 wrote:
I just got around to playing with level 5 and I'm finding it more frustrating than difficult. The reason being that there are a number of places where it's possible to leave a room for the next room and find yourself stuck with no way to backtrack, necessitating trips to the restore screen. Dead ends are ok, but not when they leave you dead.

Are there dead ends?

When I made this level, I really tried to make sure that there were always circular routes everywhere so although you may not be able to go back, you can still keep moving.

Which room(s) did you encounter a dead end in?

Level 6:1E I enjoyed, but 2E is where I would have stopped playing if it weren't an anyone edit hold. I haven't found it possible to do this one and the green door would prevent me taking a break in 1N 3E, which, btw, made me think a bit more in it's latest incarnation.

2E is a chokepoint, I'll admit, and since coming in the other side will not affect the solution, I'll take the advice and remove the green door. However, 2E is solvable - remember Roach Queens don't lay eggs on trapdoors.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 02-18-2004 at 10:36 AM GMT]

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bandit1200
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agaricus5 wrote:

Are there dead ends?

When I made this level, I really tried to make sure that there were always circular routes everywhere so although you may not be able to go back, you can still keep moving.

Which room(s) did you encounter a dead end in?

I came across at least two but can only find one of them again, in 1N 2W, as that's the room where I stopped. If you come into the room from the top left and then go east, through the 5 east pointing arrows, you are then in a loop. You can take a peek in the room to the north but have to come back.

All I can tell you about the other dead end is that it is somewhere between rooms in an east/west position. Not being editable, it would be difficult to find again. However, I can tell you which rooms I have been in - 1N, 1W and all other NW rooms.

Edit: I found the other, although it's actually all an extension of the first loop and involves 4 rooms. After entering 1N2W from the top left, you can only leave to the north again and then you are stuck. You can get to 2N2W, 2N1W and 1N1W but all roads are either blocked or in a loop.
Hope that makes sense, I'm in a bit of a rush here.

Edit2: Found another. (I *really* ought to be working. Heh) 1E, 13th square from top right.
[Edited by bandit1200 on 02-18-2004 at 02:25 PM GMT]

[Edited by bandit1200 on 02-18-2004 at 06:28 PM GMT]

eytanz
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Level 8 2E -

I don't get this room. If you let the tar grow all the way, and then clear it up once you close the doors, it's impossible - you can't get past the bottom left corner.

So, the only thing you can do is very carefully herd the tar to the right position, making sure it doesn't grow except the way you want it. But if that's the case, most of the doors are totally unnecessary - there will be no tar there when you hit the orbs.

So, are all the doors just a red herring? Or is the bottom-left corner a bug?

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agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:
Level 8 2E -

I don't get this room. If you let the tar grow all the way, and then clear it up once you close the doors, it's impossible - you can't get past the bottom left corner.

So, the only thing you can do is very carefully herd the tar to the right position, making sure it doesn't grow except the way you want it. But if that's the case, most of the doors are totally unnecessary - there will be no tar there when you hit the orbs.

So, are all the doors just a red herring? Or is the bottom-left corner a bug?

There are lots of doors to force clearing of all tar not in the designated zone. What I intended was for the player to make sure all the tar was removed from the outer area and not left behind anywhere, such as in 1N 3E. I think I'll move the orb and put it in some sort of one-way lock to make the solution I'm after more obvious.

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agaricus5
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Update:

I've just released Version 5.3 of this hold, which contains an existent, but not really complete level 9.

The level itself contains only 6 puzzle rooms, of which three are what I'd describe as moderate compared to the rest of the hold. The particular reasons for the smallness of the level (I intended it to contain 10 rooms of puzzle) are that first I've come to a creative roadblock, second that the rooms I've created were not built with a specific and tight solution in mind, so are more general and therefore were much harder for me to build, and thirdly, that it has taken me absolutely ages to test and correct some of the rooms, so I'm too tired to think up any more new rooms for this and just go straight to the release process for these rooms.

So...

I've also tweaked L8 2E a bit to make the solution I'm after a little more obvious, but haven't been able to fix L6 1S 1W. I think I'll just leave it as an "easter egg" and create a similar room, except with fewer variables in it so it's less prone to problems.

I'd also still like some feedback on Levels 6-8, for I haven't managed to gather much, although I appreciate that you (as testers) probably don't have much time and have a whole host of other holds to play and test as well.

Oh, and one note:

L9 2N is a much nastier version of L8 7S 3E in Dugan's Dungeon. I did myself think it was actually rather hard, so I've tried to be liberal with checkpoints - each Tar Mother has one under her.

My advice is to edit the hold if you want to play 2S before 1S and create a link to 2S from the entrance or one of the easier rooms so that you have the option of restoring to an earlier checkpoint than the one you just stepped on.

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agaricus5
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So, I've managed to find some time to continue my hold, and have made a small, but hopefully interesting tenth level for it. Looking at the number of new holds there are, I think it might be a little inconsiderate to start a whole new thread for a new version and just cause more clutter, so contrary to what I planned, I'll just continue sticking things to this thread.

The hold can be found at the start of the thread, along with an almost identical message there.

It would still be nice for some feedback on levels 6-8, for I haven't had much of it, but I'm now focussing on Levels 9 and 10, so thoughts on those would be appreciated

I also would like help with testing level 5 for loops (dead ends) and playability, so any feedback would be nice, although if anyone is willing to lend a more involved hand, then PM or e-mail me, and I'll send you the maze's solution to help you test.

I'm also planning on doing a reshuffle of my rooms/levels at some point, and would like some more help in determining the relative difficulty of the hold's rooms since I am a jaded audience to my own hold and cannot self-rate very well. Iwould prefer help from you, the Forum in general, but looking at past experience, this is unlikely to happen, so if anyone is willing to help me do this more privately, then PM me or send me an e-mail.

So... a few more requests than usual, I apologise, but I think I'm approaching just over half-way to completion, so I think I'd like to address these issues earlier rather than later. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read this, and also thanks for providing so much support and feedback in the past - I'm very grateful to you, for if I hadn't had it, I wouldn't still be making this hold.

Enjoy Bavato's Dungeon Version 6!


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Avon
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In the new version, all the stairs in the warp room end the hold. I suppose we can test in the editor, but it is little annoying.

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Schik
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Just the other day I started playing through this from the beginning, as I realized I hadn't seen a good half of the levels. When I get up to 6-10, I'll start giving some feedback.

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agaricus5
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Apologies - I forgot copying rooms over reset stair settings. Please re-download the file with the corrected warp room at the start of the thread.

Oh, and one last thing. I've got a little challenge for you to try at the same time as playtesting. In L10 3E, you will find 15 mimic potions and around 50-60 pillars. The solution to this room that I used requires all 15 of the potions, but I'm looking for any innovative players to see if they can do it better than I can do it. The challenge is therefore to find a solution that requires less then 15 mimic potions for this room.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-03-2004 at 09:56 AM GMT]

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gds
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Here is my feedback on what I've played so far (only level 1 to 6). I'm afraid it may not be what you want as it's mostly negative.

Level 1:
I don't like orb puzzle, I dislike even more orb puzzle where there's the possiblity of blocking yourself, and I hate orb puzzle where some orbs only purpose is to block you (unless it's obvious). Given this, I really didn't enjoy level 1.
Nevertheless, I've completed most rooms and found 1N1E enjoyable and 3E a decent puzzle.
I have a problem with 2S1E: I couldn't find the combination for opening all the yellow squares. I actually don't think it's possible and thus don't see how to solve the room.
Because of 2S1E, I didn't try 2S. I also didn't attempt 4E, the exit room.

Level 2:
Entrance: First time I did it I killed all queens and roaches as I progressed and ended up with plenty of snakes I couldn't kill and had to restart the room from the beginning. I didn't appreciate it much. Nevertheless, it's a good puzzle.

1E: I've played it 4 times. Each time I end up in the goblins chamber with one or two chambers still with roaches or wraithwings and no way to go back to them. I gave up on Level 2 then. I'd like either for the correct path to be made clear or for the room to be modified so you can't lock yourself.

Level 3:
Entrance: having to do top and bottom is repetitive. otherwise a challenging room.
2E: Even more challenging than the entrance. Too similar to it though.
1N1E:Same principle as the entrance and 2E except with limited time. Looking at the rest of the level in the editor it seems it's the same for all the other rooms. I don't think it works. The rooms are too similar and too much hack. I gave up on level 3 there.

Level 4:
The first level I found enjoyable. The rooms are all on the same theme yet varied.
I've completed 1N1W, 1N, 1S1W, 2S1W and 1S.
I don't think 1S1E is possible. I've killed all snakes and goblins, however the yellow doors prevent me from leaving the room.
1S, I've completed without collapsing all the trapdoors but I think you intended for this to be possible. I certainly wouldn't try it if I had to collapse all the trapdoor. For this reason I'm not looking forward to 2S1E.

Level 5:
There's no level 5!

Level 6:
1S: A very good and very interesting challenge
1S1W: I finished it but I don't think it was the intended way. For a start, it was easy. I just blocked the three groups of roaches at the bottom right near to the entrance of the central chamber and then released all the roaches. That was enough for them to arrive in waves spaced enough so that I could cope with it. I didn't need the mimics.

Overall, I find you create very challenging puzzles. However I feel you don't give the player a chance to rest. Most levels I've played so far are just variations around the same room and it get frustrating after a while. I would much prefer a hold where each level was actually made from one room taken from each of your levels. Most puzzles also take a long time to complete. After a while it's just too much.

Again, I'm sorry for this post being negative. Nevertheless, it's still some feedback.

agaricus5
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gds wrote:
Here is my feedback on what I've played so far (only level 1 to 6). I'm afraid it may not be what you want as it's mostly negative.

I don't mind. Usually negative criticism is actually much better than positive criticism because it provides more to work with and improve.

Level 1:
I don't like orb puzzle, I dislike even more orb puzzle where there's the possiblity of blocking yourself, and I hate orb puzzle where some orbs only purpose is to block you (unless it's obvious). Given this, I really didn't enjoy level 1.
Nevertheless, I've completed most rooms and found 1N1E enjoyable and 3E a decent puzzle.

I'll consider removing some horrible misleading orbs and more checkpoints, but since this is the level's theme, I don't think much will be changed until I can do a proper reshuffle.

I have a problem with 2S1E: I couldn't find the combination for opening all the yellow squares. I actually don't think it's possible and thus don't see how to solve the room.

Numbering the orbs from left to right, try the combination 2, 4, 1, 3.

1E: I've played it 4 times. Each time I end up in the goblins chamber with one or two chambers still with roaches or wraithwings and no way to go back to them. I gave up on Level 2 then. I'd like either for the correct path to be made clear or for the room to be modified so you can't lock yourself.

You need to clear the southern chambers first, then clear the ones to the east, then the west, and finally the north before going for the goblins. Orbs generally tend to open doors to the north and east, and close the ones to the south and west, but some of the orbs in the middle of the room also toggle.

Level 3:
Entrance: having to do top and bottom is repetitive. otherwise a challenging room.
2E: Even more challenging than the entrance. Too similar to it though.
1N1E:Same principle as the entrance and 2E except with limited time. Looking at the rest of the level in the editor it seems it's the same for all the other rooms. I don't think it works. The rooms are too similar and too much hack. I gave up on level 3 there.

It's an issue I had had before; I just didn't get round to changing the level around. Since you've brought it to light again for me, for which I'm grateful, I will consider changing the rooms around and varying their contents considerably to avoid too much roach killing that's tedious.

Level 4:
I don't think 1S1E is possible. I've killed all snakes and goblins, however the yellow doors prevent me from leaving the room.

That's interesting...

Going to check...

Actually, it is a bit unfair. The orb at the top opens the door. I think the reason was because an older version of the room required going from the bottom chamber to the top, and the door associations were not changed. I'll change the orbs so that they all open the yellow door to the south.

1S, I've completed without collapsing all the trapdoors but I think you intended for this to be possible. I certainly wouldn't try it if I had to collapse all the trapdoor. For this reason I'm not looking forward to 2S1E.

You did?

How clever. Most of the people who did this room did it the hard way that I intended. Yes - you need to clear all the trapdoors in the intended solution.

Since, however, it has been branded a very hard room if so, I'm going to consider leaving it as is, or making it not required if I change it.

Level 5:
There's no level 5!

Go to the thread's start and look at the second post. Level 5 is solvable but still quite buggy. If you want to help me test it, then send me an e-mail, and I'll give you an anyone-edit version.

Level 6:
1S1W: I finished it but I don't think it was the intended way. For a start, it was easy. I just blocked the three groups of roaches at the bottom right near to the entrance of the central chamber and then released all the roaches. That was enough for them to arrive in waves spaced enough so that I could cope with it. I didn't need the mimics.

I know about this one. I can't fix the room, so I'll leave it as an easter egg or something like that, and then make an easier version that's not so complicated.

Overall, I find you create very challenging puzzles. However I feel you don't give the player a chance to rest. Most levels I've played so far are just variations around the same room and it get frustrating after a while. I would much prefer a hold where each level was actually made from one room taken from each of your levels. Most puzzles also take a long time to complete. After a while it's just too much.

So... you mean you'd prefer more variety in a level, rather than lots of rooms based on the same theme, and have rooms of varying difficulty so that players can "take a break" and do easier ones if they cannot complete a hard one?

Again, I'm sorry for this post being negative. Nevertheless, it's still some feedback.

As I said, negative feedback is often better than positive feedback, because it gives more things to work on and yields better results.

I am glad you spent time to play the hold, and give feedback on it.


Also...

Please beware of Level 9 2N.

It's a level 8 7S 3E remake but much more unpleasant. I think I may remove this room as it's just far too difficult and is probably just not fun to play.

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gds
Level: Delver
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agaricus5 wrote:
Level 1:
I'll consider removing some horrible misleading orbs and more checkpoints, but since this is the level's theme, I don't think much will be changed until I can do a proper reshuffle.

In my opinion, you need to. I just feel frustrated every time I hit a orb that I had no way of knowing what it'd do and be forced to restore.

2S1E: Numbering the orbs from left to right, try the combination 2, 4, 1, 3.

It doesn't work. I actually wrote a program that tested all combinations of up to 12 striking of orbs, and did not find any possible combination.

Level 2 1E: You need to clear the southern chambers first, then clear the ones to the east, then the west, and finally the north before going for the goblins. Orbs generally tend to open doors to the north and east, and close the ones to the south and west, but some of the orbs in the middle of the room also toggle.

Maybe, you need to make that clear somehow. Or maybe, I had run out of patience when I played that room and need to try it again with a fresh mind.

Level 4 1S1E:
Actually, it is a bit unfair. The orb at the top opens the door. I think the reason was because an older version of the room required going from the bottom chamber to the top, and the door associations were not changed. I'll change the orbs so that they all open the yellow door to the south.

Sorry, I missed that. That's not going to help me though as I wasn't planning on opening the red door so didn' drop all the trapdoor as I was hoping to leave the room through the breakable walls at the bottom. I'll have to try it again dropping all trapdoors. That's going to be much more of a challenge.

1S, I've completed without collapsing all the trapdoors but I think you intended for this to be possible. I certainly wouldn't try it if I had to collapse all the trapdoor. For this reason I'm not looking forward to 2S1E.

You did?

How clever. Most of the people who did this room did it the hard way that I intended. Yes - you need to clear all the trapdoors in the intended solution.

Since, however, it has been branded a very hard room if so, I'm going to consider leaving it as is, or making it not required if I change it.

Yes, please leave it as it is. It still was a challenge to do it the way I did, maybe not as hard as the proper way but still hard. I had to be very careful on the way to the tar mother to kill as many tar babies as possible while not leaving spot for new ones to be created. And I had to be even more careful on the way back up to find a way to the remaining tar babies. It needed careful planning.

So... you mean you'd prefer more variety in a level, rather than lots of rooms based on the same theme, and have rooms of varying difficulty so that players can "take a break" and do easier ones if they cannot complete a hard one?

I understand the idea of having levels based on a theme and I think that on level 7 and 8 it works very well. That's because the puzzle are all different. I don't think it works for level 1 or 3 as the puzzle are too similar. I just get the feeling of playing the same room again and again which leads to frustration.

Having now played more of your hold, I would say that the problem with your hold is not so much the difficulty but that each puzzle take such a long time to complete. You certainly make full use of the space available which is a good thing, but I think once in a while there's the need for a short puzzle, easy or difficult does not matter. Take for example level 4: I really like the puzzles, they are good challenge and entertaining. I couldn't do more than two rooms without taking a break though, they just take so long to complete.

Anyway, I've progressed further in the hold so here is more feedback:

Level 7: This level I really liked. I think's that because the puzzles are more varied.

The Entrance and 1E were fairly easy compared to the rest and didn't take too long to complete which is a good thing.

2E: I haven't completed yet. That wraithwing is just not cooperating. I'm sure i'll solve it eventually.

1N1E: I haven't figured out how to deal with the eyes yet.

1N: Was very good and entertaining. I just like how your movement and the mimic's movement all fit together.

1S: Was actually much easier than it looked. I enjoyed it.

1W: At first I thought, oh easy just push that goblin toward that brain and the job's done. I should have known better and sure enough was eaten by the snake. I was more careful the second time and got it right. I liked it.

1N1W: I don't know if I've completed it the way you intended. At first I thought I had to put the mimic next to queen to kill it immediately and then move the mimic to the orb. That wasn't possible because of spawned roaches blocking the spot. I thought the brain would make them move toward me but I guess that they saw the force arrow as an obstacle. So I ended up putting the mimic next to the orb and used the roach thus freed to kill the snake. Then moved the mimic to kill the queen and spawned roaches.

2N1W: Good puzzle, however I think I killed the serpent a bit earlier than I was supposed to. I killed it in the upper part of the room.

1N2W: I think the idea is very good but it's just too hard. I can get the snake to the other two snakes but by that time it has shrunk too much and ends up killing itself before the opening in the other snake has reached it. Maybe it would work if you had more snakes but shorter, in that final chamber.

Level 8: A good level as well.

The entrance: was fun and not too difficult.

1E: more challenging than the entrance. Still good fun.

1S1E: I think this one is a bit too hard. At first, I thought that the three mimics at the start went in the three orb chambers next to them but when I reached the tar mother I saw I was wrong. That's very misleading but I don't think you can change that.
The second time round I put the mimics where they were supposed to go and managed to clear the room of all monsters. Now that the green doors have dropped I can reach the two mimic potions at the bottom right. I was careful to let the tar grow just enough under to bottom-right green door, but I missed the block of tar under the left-most green door. As a result I can't reach the last mimic potion. I think there's too much to watch for in that bottom left chamber. If you'd drop that green door by one square that would make it more bearable.

2E: Interesting puzzle. A bit tedious but that can't be helped.

3E: A good break after 2E.

1S3E: easy.

1N3E: Very similar to 2E but much harder especially the end where you can't just leave a tar blob in the yellow door. You must leave a properly shaped blob to avoid tar babies in the corners of the door.

4E: This one is just too hard. The timer is too tight. One mistake in cutting a tar blob and it's over. I can barely reach the third save point without any tar babies but after that I can't cope.

That's it for now. By the way I have demos for every room I have completed, if you're interested I can post them here or mail them to you.

Edit:
I've now played and completed level 5. I haven't seen all the rooms but I don't understand why you don't want to put it with the rest of the hold.


[Edited by gds on 04-09-2004 at 05:55 PM GMT]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

gds wrote:

2S1E: Numbering the orbs from left to right, try the combination 2, 4, 1, 3.

It doesn't work. I actually wrote a program that tested all combinations of up to 12 striking of orbs, and did not find any possible combination.

Try again. Instead, use 2, 4, 3, 1. I made an error above.

However, I'm impressed that you made a program to solve this problem - it's a very innovative way to go about it.

1N1W: I don't know if I've completed it the way you intended. At first I thought I had to put the mimic next to queen to kill it immediately and then move the mimic to the orb. That wasn't possible because of spawned roaches blocking the spot. I thought the brain would make them move toward me but I guess that they saw the force arrow as an obstacle. So I ended up putting the mimic next to the orb and used the roach thus freed to kill the snake. Then moved the mimic to kill the queen and spawned roaches.

That's the solution I was after. The other variation involved getting the mimic to kill the queen first and then getting it out to kill the serpents, instead of using roaches.

2N1W: Good puzzle, however I think I killed the serpent a bit earlier than I was supposed to. I killed it in the upper part of the room.

I see the problem. I'll fix it right away.

1N2W: I think the idea is very good but it's just too hard. I can get the snake to the other two snakes but by that time it has shrunk too much and ends up killing itself before the opening in the other snake has reached it. Maybe it would work if you had more snakes but shorter, in that final chamber.

I'll have a think about how to make the solution I'm after a bit more obvious.

1S1E: I think this one is a bit too hard. At first, I thought that the three mimics at the start went in the three orb chambers next to them but when I reached the tar mother I saw I was wrong. That's very misleading but I don't think you can change that.
The second time round I put the mimics where they were supposed to go and managed to clear the room of all monsters. Now that the green doors have dropped I can reach the two mimic potions at the bottom right. I was careful to let the tar grow just enough under to bottom-right green door, but I missed the block of tar under the left-most green door. As a result I can't reach the last mimic potion. I think there's too much to watch for in that bottom left chamber. If you'd drop that green door by one square that would make it more bearable.

You could use Tar babies to block off vital areas to make your task a little easier.

4E: This one is just too hard. The timer is too tight. One mistake in cutting a tar blob and it's over. I can barely reach the third save point without any tar babies but after that I can't cope.

Hmm... I'll think about downgrading the room, but I did spend quite some time on it getting it just right, so I'll move it to a later level or mark it as not required.

Edit:
I've now played and completed level 5. I haven't seen all the rooms but I don't understand why you don't want to put it with the rest of the hold.

What?

You completed level 5?

You must be the first person to do so then.

I'd like to see a demo of it, if you have one, to prove it. As you know, Level 5 is a maze, so putting it in an anyone-edit hold will allow people to be able to see the solution without having to discover it. Send the demo to me by e-mail, and I'll have a look at it.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 02-06-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
What?

You completed level 5?

You must be the first person to do so then.

I'd like to see a demo of it, if you have one, to prove it. As you know, Level 5 is a maze, so putting it in an anyone-edit hold will allow people to be able to see the solution without having to discover it. Send the demo to me by e-mail, and I'll have a look at it.

I was probably very lucky, I went in the right direction from the start and found the exit room very quickly. After that I only blocked myself two or three times before finding the right path.

PM me your email address and I'll send you the demo.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

has level 5 been updated since I mentioned the places where it's possible to get stuck, about 3 weeks ago?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

bandit1200 wrote:
has level 5 been updated since I mentioned the places where it's possible to get stuck, about 3 weeks ago?

Not yet.

After I look at gds' demo, I'm going to get level 5 organised, because I've spotted one or two things as well.

Do you want to help me test this level properly?

If you do, PM me, and I'll e-mail you with an anyone-edit version of the level, and the intended solution.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 02-06-2004
IP: Logged

I wasn't aware you shouldn't be able to get stuck in Level 5. I've found plenty of places where it's possible. Particularly near the exit room.

The demo has been sent.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

gds wrote:
I wasn't aware you shouldn't be able to get stuck in Level 5. I've found plenty of places where it's possible. Particularly near the exit room.

The demo has been sent.

Thank you very much.

It was a nice demo, but it was, unfortunately, not the correct solution, so I am going to fix it. The proper solution is much longer. Sorry about ruining your hard work and good luck to get this particular solution.

Oh, and "stuck" means "unable to get to the exit from the position you are at". What this usually means is that you can enter a loop that does not let you out.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 02-06-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
Try again. Instead, use 2, 4, 3, 1. I made an error above.

However, I'm impressed that you made a program to solve this problem - it's a very innovative way to go about it.

As I don't usually enjoy this sort of puzzles and I enjoy programming, that's the way I usually go at solving them. However, in this instance I,m not proud of myself as the program failed miserably.

L7 1N1W: That's the solution I was after. The other variation involved getting the mimic to kill the queen first and then getting it out to kill the serpents, instead of using roaches.

I don't think the variation is possible. That's what I thought wa s the proper way to solve the room, but there's always a roach in the way.

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 02-06-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
Thank you very much.

It was a nice demo, but it was, unfortunately, not the correct solution, so I am going to fix it. The proper solution is much longer. Sorry about ruining your hard work and good luck to get this particular solution.

Oh, and "stuck" means "unable to get to the exit from the position you are at". What this usually means is that you can enter a loop that does not let you out.

Sorry, I don't understand you here (english is not my native language). Do you mean there should or should not be loops you can't exit.

I'd like to try the new version of level 5. I don't really want the answer yet.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

gds wrote:

L7 1N1W: That's the solution I was after. The other variation involved getting the mimic to kill the queen first and then getting it out to kill the serpents, instead of using roaches.

I don't think the variation is possible. That's what I thought wa s the proper way to solve the room, but there's always a roach in the way.

Oh... so that's what I put the trapdoor there for.

Oops.

Thanks for pointing it out to me. I couldn't remember why I put it there in the first place.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Hmm...

No level 10 comments yet?

However...

No level 11 yet, I'm sorry, for I've been focussing my attention on updating level 5, which as you may well know, was full of unpleasant bugs. I found at least 30 of them, ranging from unintended solutions to loops and trapping squares, which was hugely time-consuming. As a result, I'm pretty sure that there should not be any more bugs in it(I was extremely thorough), but if you do find any, tell me straight away!

The corrected level 5 has just been uploaded (See second post to get a copy of it). If anyone finds a solution, send me a demo via e-mail and I'll check it to see if it's the intended solution.

Have fun maze-solving!

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist