agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: Bavato36Test.hold (86.9 KB)
Downloaded 197 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Update:
Version 7.2, the final version, is now finished entirely. It will be going on the Holds Board shortly. Anyone who contributed to beta testing will also receive a special version of the hold, complete with warp room and Anyone-Edit status.

Thanks for your help, everyone, it was great making this hold!

The last Testing Edition post and the hold remains below for semi-nostalgic reasons, although calls for help mentioned below no longer apply:

To coincide with the first birthday of this project (thus showing my hold-building inefficiency), started on June 15, 2003, the hold has been updated to contain a new level 11, and some fixes for level 10 and previous levels. Since I had data loss and a crash recently, the hold has a new ID, so you may need to delete the old version and import the new one.

It will also be the last update that will be released as an anyone-edit version for testing, since I will be holding a private beta after this. In consequence, the final version will be radically different to this one in terms of layout, rooms and storyline, although the first levels will be basically similar.

The response to requests for help so far has been generally positive or politely declined, which has been very pleasant, so thank you, and I think I have enough helpers to reshuffle the hold, so this is no longer a requirement.

However, I'm still looking for one story consolidator (Probably I'll have to do that now if no-one wants to help), and beta-testers interested in testing the final product, which will be unlikely to be changed, would also be welcome to help.

So...

Enjoy this last testing version. Thanks to all who have helped me get this far with the hold - it's been a long, difficult but fun year building this, and I've learned a great deal about being an architect from your feedback and suggestions.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 02-17-2004 at 01:50 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 03-08-2004 at 10:51 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 03-08-2004 at 11:59 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-03-2004 at 12:01 AM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-03-2004 at 11:11 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-19-2004 at 08:42 AM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-08-2004 at 08:30 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-15-2004 at 05:57 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-15-2004 at 05:58 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-12-2004 at 03:37 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-27-2004 at 10:35 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-01-2004 at 10:29 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-02-2004 at 05:57 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: Bavato34 (Level 5).hold (13.8 KB)
Downloaded 145 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

For those who want a really hard challenge, try Level 5, not included above because letting you see the solution before finishing it will spoil the fun, attached to this post.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 01-03-2004 at 04:20 PM GMT]

After at least 30 separate bug fixes, It's been error-corrected. Phew!

There should not be any more bugs like loops in it, but if you do find any, tell me straight away!

Enjoy the new updated version.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-17-2004 at 09:58 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

In Level 3 the entrance and in 2N, the scrolls have no text on them. Is it intentional?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

It's probably a relic of the Text Loss bug from earlier. I obviously didn't notice this one. Thanks for pointing it out.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

joker5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 607
Registered: 11-25-2003
IP: Logged

Trivial solution in Level 1 one north 3 east:

the two orbs "protected" bu force arrows:

Hit the upper-left one first, then stand on the corner of the dropped wall, hit the other orb, then HIT THE FIRST ONE. Then you can go and hit the one other orb that's exposed, make your way north, hit THAT orb, and whoop-de-doo, not too many roaches at all.

Other than that great hold!

~joker5

____________________________
Criminals, like other people, dislike being shot. ~FBI study on guns

www.badgerbadgerbadger.com

"Two words: Beam Waffle!" -me

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

joker5 wrote:
Trivial solution in Level 1 one north 3 east:

the two orbs "protected" bu force arrows:

Hit the upper-left one first, then stand on the corner of the dropped wall, hit the other orb, then HIT THE FIRST ONE. Then you can go and hit the one other orb that's exposed, make your way north, hit THAT orb, and whoop-de-doo, not too many roaches at all.

Other than that great hold!

~joker5

Hmm...

Several people have said that already. It was an intended - it was meant to be a "it looks hard, but is actually a very easy" sort of room. Perhaps I should make it a little more difficult.

Let me consider.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Hmm... More delays seem to telling me several things.

Either people are too busy to test the hold (understandable),
The hold is too hard (likely),
Or like the last release, something is scaring people away from testing it. (unlikely)

So, please, if you do have some time, but don't want to test the whole thing, please can I have your help testing a few specific rooms that I need to make sure are bug-free (trivial solutions in these are a large risk to me):

L6 1S 1W
L6 1N
L6 2E
L6 1N 3E
L7 1N 2W
L7 1W
L7 2E
L7 1N
L7 1N 1E.

Thanks to all who have tried out the hold so far and helped test it. I'm very grateful to you.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Avon
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 47
Registered: 12-06-2003
IP: Logged

I believe I have a trivial solution to L6 1N 3E. The first thing I did was kill the goblin, then I killed all the tar mothers and the babies outside of the bottom right area. Then I hit the orb, went into the bottom right area, killed the tar babies and used the mimic to trap the snake.

Looking at this room again, I think I was probably "meant" to use the goblin to kill the snake, and the mimic to kill the goblin.

____________________________
"Les hommes ne sont jamais plus ingénieux que dans l'invention des jeux." -- Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: L6 1N 3E.gif (105.7 KB)
Downloaded 166 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Eeww. That's horrible.

Thanks for spotting it and realising what I had in mind.

I think I've fixed it now.

See if this edit (you can change the room yourself) works.

Thanks again for noticing that.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Avon
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 47
Registered: 12-06-2003
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
See if this edit (you can change the room yourself) works.

At first I couldn't see how it was going to work, then I spotted a force arrow under the roach.

The room seems to work now.

____________________________
"Les hommes ne sont jamais plus ingénieux que dans l'invention des jeux." -- Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Avon
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 47
Registered: 12-06-2003
IP: Logged

Avon wrote:
The room seems to work now.

Actually, you can kill the goblin at the start and use a tar baby to trap the snake. I don't know if I'd call it trivial but I do think it's unintended.

____________________________
"Les hommes ne sont jamais plus ingénieux que dans l'invention des jeux." -- Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Terrafire
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 02-28-2003
IP: Logged

There is another blank scroll, on Level One, 1N2E.

____________________________
Look Mommy! Look! It's a flesh-eating bunny!

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Hmm... That's interesting.

Checking...

Ah, yes. So the text loss bug was not wholly bad after all. That scroll, were it still there, would make me a hypocrite because it was a sort of "annoying scroll", containing the words "Now if only the door configuration was like this at the start...".

I think I'll remove it. Thanks for reminding me.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

L3:2N also has a blank scroll.

All of the scrolls by the waste pits have the last word as "slurry" Is that the correct one?

The scroll at the end of level 6 says that you will keep the hold uneditable until it's finished. Isn't that a little out of date?

I think you missed the scroll at the upward stairs in level 7.

I'm only looking at the scrolls because I haven't had time to play past level 2. Hope this helps.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

More scroll bugs.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
L3:2N also has a blank scroll.

Left on purpose. It's a reminder to me to change the room without having to write "change this room" on the scroll.

All of the scrolls by the waste pits have the last word as "slurry" Is that the correct one?

Mmm... slurry. I chose this word especially because that is what it is, although you cannot tell because it has putrefied so much that it has turned blue!

The scroll at the end of level 6 says that you will keep the hold uneditable until it's finished. Isn't that a little out of date?

Very. Just removed. Thanks for noticing it.

I think you missed the scroll at the upward stairs in level 7.

Yes... so I have. Thanks for spotting this as well.

I'm only looking at the scrolls because I haven't had time to play past level 2. Hope this helps.

It does, because when you look at the rooms and levels as a whole, you tend to forget to remove scrolls or do small, but important edits like this, or say "I'll get rid of it later", and forget. Definitely a useful service. I'll now check that the scrolls are corrected, except L3 2N.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 01-24-2004 at 12:30 AM GMT]

New edit: The scroll in the entrance to level 6 should read: "...to the start of level 4".

[Edited by agaricus5 on 01-25-2004 at 02:55 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

I'm stuck with the orbs on level 1 1S 2E, not something I normally have a problem with, but I just can't sort this one. Could you put me out of my misery please?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The orbs you need to hit are (numbered from left to right):



____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

Thanks, I'm back on track again

BTW, your first post mentions this is an anyone edit hold. Did you change that? It's not showing as anyone edit here.

[Edited by bandit1200 on 01-25-2004 at 09:32 AM GMT]

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Yes, it's been modified.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

bandit1200 wrote:
Thanks, I'm back on track again

BTW, your first post mentions this is an anyone edit hold. Did you change that? It's not showing as anyone edit here.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Yes, it's been modified.

Modified?

Not Anyone Edit?

Are you sure you downloaded the file at the top of the thread, or do you have an older version?

It should be an Anyone Edit hold. Please check it again.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I mean modified *to* anyone edit.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

Are you sure you downloaded the file at the top of the thread, or do you have an older version?

It should be an Anyone Edit hold. Please check it again.

After realising I couldn't edit, I downloaded the one at the top, but seeing they were exactly the same size I assumed they were the same file. What did I say about assuming somewhere else? Heh. Anyways, I imported the new one and have editing rights now, thanks.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

This is the third (or is it the fourth?) time I have needed to post like this. I know it sounds like some sort of whine for a little more attention to this thread, but I really am almost at the point of giving up Bavato's Dungeon altogether.

Since this is the third (or fourth) month-long delay I have experienced in getting people to test, I am beginning to think that there is something well and truly wrong with it. I'll admit that I haven't been able to visit the forum for the last two weeks due to too many things to do, and I haven't finished all the holds (or those in progress) that I would have liked to, without being hypocritical, but the fact that this has happened again is rather disheartening, especially as most of L6 remains untouched (untested).

So... I must ask you what it is that is making the hold so unattractive to play. Is it too hard, boring, or perhaps even uninventive and copying of other holds?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-04-2004 at 03:33 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

I feel very bad for not testing...especially because it was me that suggested you releasing an Anyone Edit version. Honestly, I haven't been playing much DROD at all recently...so it's not like I've been ignoring your hold in favor of many other holds. But whenever I do consider playing the enormity of the task often dissuades me; you do have a very difficult hold here, I am positive it is the most difficult one yet made. But it is also very unique and I don't think that it is derivative of other holds.

To be honest, I don't think you should scrap Bavato's Dungeon at all. I think, if people aren't testing it, you should just submit it to the Holds forum. It is now possible to correct submitted holds, you just can't add or remove any rooms. So, at least if someone discovers something after it's submitted, you can fix it.

I apologize again, and I hope you will submit Bavato's Dungeon instead of scrapping it.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
I feel very bad for not testing...especially because it was me that suggested you releasing an Anyone Edit version.

You don't need to feel bad for not testing - it's a non-obligatory thing. I am asking people to do it voluntarily, so no-one is really obliged to test it.

But whenever I do consider playing the enormity of the task often dissuades me; you do have a very difficult hold here... To be honest, I don't think you should scrap Bavato's Dungeon at all. I think, if people aren't testing it, you should just submit it to the Holds forum. It is now possible to correct submitted holds, you just can't add or remove any rooms. So, at least if someone discovers something after it's submitted, you can fix it.

I apologize again, and I hope you will submit Bavato's Dungeon instead of scrapping it.

If it is difficult, then that's fine. If the reason for the ignoring is because it's too hard, I can solve the problem by downgrading the room difficulty (Or level difficulty) - no problem. What I was concerned about was the fact that the reason may not have been to do with difficulty at all, but something more sinister like being boring, repetitive, uninventive or insulting, which I, with a jaded view, would not notice. The thing is, if the sentiment that the hold is too difficult is the one held by people not desiring to test it (I haven't played Deep Hold for a while for the same reason, so I understand), then I don't mind at all, and a re-shuffle of the more flexible rooms should solve the problem.

If anyone else has a similar viewpoint to Oneiromancer, then that would be encouraging to hear. If anyone has a viewpoint dissimilar to Oneiromancer, then I would also appreciate hearing it.

If the general reaction to the hold is not negative for any other reason than it being too hard, then I'll finish the hold properly, knowing the reason why.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 02-14-2004 at 11:40 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I've glanced over a lot of it, but I haven't actually played any. I don't have much time to play (I'm on the forum a lot only because the school has computers) and when I am it's all I can do to keep up with the new holds. However, I'll see if I can dig up some spare time for it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Well, I stopped playing the hold upon reaching level 6 a while back because you announced that the level was buggy, and I never resumed it. I agree with Onieromancer that the hold is difficult - too difficult, for me, to be just a half-hour diversion, which is the amount of consequtive time I can generally give to playing DROD these days.

You already know that I don't like level 5, but that's not why I've stopped testing - and I really did like the other levels. I'd rather this stay one of the "expert" holds than you lower the level difficulty (though if you add more levels, you could add easier levels and put them before the current levels if that won't cause story problems).

Anyway, I agree with Oneiromancer - you shouldn't feel discouraged about this hold, it's a great hold, definitely one of the best. If you think you want a hold that's more "mainstream" and less aimed at "experts", I'd suggest you upload it to the hold forum and start a new project, rather than alter the stuff that's already there.

In general, though, given the size of this community, I think there is a window of about 2-3 weeks between the first release of a hold/level during which the author gets feedback, and after that it becomes very unlikely. It's just that there aren't that many of us here yet, and there are too many new things propping up for people to devote full attention to older holds - that's just human nature, and I really wouldn't read it as a reflection on the quality of your hold.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

eytanz wrote:
Well, I stopped playing the hold upon reaching level 6 a while back because you announced that the level was buggy, and I never resumed it.

It's only likely to be buggy in terms of trivial solutions - I playtested all the rooms properly.

In general, though, given the size of this community, I think there is a window of about 2-3 weeks between the first release of a hold/level during which the author gets feedback, and after that it becomes very unlikely. It's just that there aren't that many of us here yet, and there are too many new things propping up for people to devote full attention to older holds - that's just human nature, and I really wouldn't read it as a reflection on the quality of your hold.

I see what you mean. I think that along with difficulty and lack of time, this tendency appears to be true.

Okay.

Since I've had a think about it, I have decided not to stop because it looks like time constraints and difficulty are the main factors in the problem (The observation above is probably directly caused by lack of time to do things). However, like before, I do not place any obligation on anyone to playtest the hold, although if you do, it would be nice.

So, I make a repeat request - could anyone with some time and effort to spare please help in playtesting these rooms (Singly, or in groups, it's not important - imagine that they are one-room holds):

L6 1S 1W
L6 1N
L6 2E
L6 1N 3E
L7 1N 2W
L7 1W
L7 2E
L7 1N
L7 1N 1E.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 02-14-2004 at 11:52 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Watcher
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 902
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Okay, here's a bit of feedback for L6 1S1W:

I'm not sure how difficult this is intended to be, but I found it rather easy. Here's what I did: I walked into the central room, then to the open NE room. I let the roaches just W of me into the long space in their corridor, and the roaches just S of me all the way to the last door. Then I went to the central chamber and let all roaches loose. The first two waves are easily dealt with, since they're only three roaches each, and the rest can be handled without too much trouble due to the brain behavior. Afterwards, I used the mimics to kill the brains. Probably not unintended, but easy compared to some of the other rooms on the level.

____________________________
Today the refrigerator, tomorrow the world!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

For that room, I don't think that you should have so many brains. One would be enough, and it saves the player needless trouble placing all those mimics.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....