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Rabscuttle
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ooh, or he gets a long string of handkerchiefs all tied together and uses them to pull the gold pieces across.

Or he just MAGICS them across! :wizard
02-19-2005 at 03:54 AM
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wackhead_uk
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Why would a party magician have 3Kg in gold and still be walking everywhere?
02-19-2005 at 10:27 AM
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TripleM
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Stigants right (at least in the version of the puzzle that I know). For both parts actually, he got the 'answer' right and also the reason why the answer doesn't work :D
02-19-2005 at 10:36 AM
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wackhead_uk
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Well, when you're juggling, you only have one ball at a time in your hand if you throw them high enough...
02-19-2005 at 11:07 AM
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stigant
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Well, there are patterns in which you only have one ball in hand at any given time. But to throw the balls high enough to maintain the pattern requires even more force, which, I think, will be enough to break the bridge anyway.



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02-19-2005 at 04:25 PM
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Maurog
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I think the best solution is to juggle the gold until the magician slims down to 77 kilograms (juggling three gold bars is hard work, trust me), then just cross the bridge carrying the gold.

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02-19-2005 at 05:12 PM
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agaricus5
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Perhaps the magician could throw down one bar to his other hand just as he throws another up with the same force. The resultant force of throwing it downwards should cancel the resultant force of throwing it upwards, so stopping the bridge collapsing. Of course, he's going to need some quick hands to avoid dropping the bars, but it might be possible nonetheless.

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02-19-2005 at 06:11 PM
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DiMono
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Who ever said all the force required to throw the bars had to be up? If he were to juggle them almost sideways, the vertical force required would be minimal.

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02-19-2005 at 07:37 PM
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AlefBet
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Well, the bottom line is that in order to keep 81Kg from falling, an average force necessary to support 81Kg needs to be pressed against the supporting structure. That's just the action/reaction reality about it. If you could do fancy juggling tricks like this, people might be researching how to do it in air planes or hot air balloons, but the physics won't allow you to cheat like that. (Sorry to spoil the riddle, though.)

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02-19-2005 at 11:04 PM
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rowrow
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The answer that would make most sence is taking one across at a time. However that wasn't the one that was on that website so stigant is up.

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02-20-2005 at 02:57 AM
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stigant
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Ok, my wife and I both like the same layers on our sandwiches: ham, cheese, pickles, lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers, and onions. As far as my wife is concerned, the layers can be in any order. However, I have slightly more discerning taste than my wife. I insist on having the ham layer above the lettuce layer, but below the cucumber layer. Now, I don't care if there's anything in between the ham and the lettuce, as long as the ham is somewhere above the lettuce and the cucumber is somewhere above the ham. What is the probability that a sandwich made by my wife will be to my liking?

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02-20-2005 at 03:52 PM
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Maurog
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Probability and statistics, eh?

You have 7 layers, so there are 7! different sandwiches total.
Ham should be above lettuce, and below cucumbers. There are 7! / (3! * 4!) ways to position 3 layers among 7. In each of those ways, there are 4 layers that can be in any order, that's 4! for each. This means you like 4! * 7! / (3! * 4!) sandwiches, i.e. 7! / 3! sandwiches. this means the probability you will like the sandwich is (7! / 3!) / 7! i.e. 7! / (3! * 7!) i.e. 1/3! which means 1/6.

The probability you will like a sandwich made by your wife is 0.166666...

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02-20-2005 at 05:09 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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@ Maurog : Bang your death !

Edit : This is refering to the "Assains" Game and not Spam

[Edited by MeckMeck GRE at Local Time:02-20-2005 at 06:17 PM]
02-20-2005 at 05:55 PM
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stigant
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The probability you will like a sandwich made by your wife is 0.166666...

Close. Your math is impeccible, but there's an out-of-the-box twist that you are missing.

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02-20-2005 at 06:15 PM
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wackhead_uk
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is it...you like your sandwiches cut into triangles and your wife cuts them into squares?

Or more plausibly, could it be if more than one layer is the same thing?
02-20-2005 at 07:08 PM
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Watcher
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stigant wrote:
The probability you will like a sandwich made by your wife is 0.166666...

Close. Your math is impeccible, but there's an out-of-the-box twist that you are missing.

As Maurog calculated, you'll like the sandwich as-is in 1 out of 6 cases. Further, in another 1 out of 6 cases, you'll like the sandwich if you turn it over. In total, the odds are 1 in 3 or 0.3333...

If this is correct, Maurog can have the next puzzle, since he did most of the problem.

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02-20-2005 at 07:16 PM
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stigant
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yes, watcher is correct. You can always turn a sandwich over. Maurog - you're up.

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02-20-2005 at 07:28 PM
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Maurog
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Awww, MeckMeck got me after all.

Anyways, here's a puzzle for you:

A pirate is walking the plank for drinking all the rum from captain's stash. The plank is five steps long, and he's standing in the middle of it. We assume there are shark-infested waters on both ends. The pirate is so drunk he randomly goes left or right on the plank each step. How many steps, on average, will the poor pirate walk before becoming fish bait?

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02-20-2005 at 08:09 PM
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stigant
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how wide is the plank? 5 steps?

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02-20-2005 at 08:30 PM
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eytanz
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If there's water on both sides of the plank, how is it connected to the ship?

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02-20-2005 at 08:45 PM
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Maurog
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The plank is mounted on the nose of the ship (the prow), where the ship isn't wide at all, so there is water on both sides. The plank is one step wide, but the drunk pirate won't fall from it except for the two ends, because he's only staggering backwards and forwards (left and right from where the captain is watching).

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02-20-2005 at 09:02 PM
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stigant
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Ok, I think this is the situation:
  a  b  c  d  e
w[ ][ ][P][ ][ ]w

the pirate is at P (square c) and moves left or right, randomly, one square at a time. If he ever steps into the water, that's the end, and we want to know what is the expected number of steps before he lands in the water.

If this is correct, let E(x) be the expected number of steps that the pirate will take from square x. For brevity, I will let A = E(a), B = E(b) etc.

Further, by symmetry, A = E and B = D.

Now, suppose the pirate is at square A. He has 50-50 chance of going to the right, or to his death. Either way, we can calculate the expected number of steps from A in terms of the expected number of steps from B:
So A = 1/2(1) + 1/2(B+1). Or
A = 1 + B/2.
Similarly, B = A/2 + C/2 + 1 and C = B/2 + D/2 + 1 = B + 1.

So we have three equations:
A = 1 + B/2
B = A/2 + C/2 + 1
C = B + 1.

Substituting for A and C into equation 2 gives:
B = (1+B/2)/2 + (B+1)/2 + 1
B = 1/2 + B/4 + B/2 + 1/2 + 1
B = 2 + 3B/4
B/4 = 2
B = 8.
C = B + 1 = 9.
Since the pirate is at C, we can expect him to take 9 steps before he falls into the water.

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02-20-2005 at 09:24 PM
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DiMono
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Isn't one of the rules of this thread that pure math puzzles aren't legal?

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02-20-2005 at 09:40 PM
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Maurog
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4. NEW RULE 1/1/04: The puzzle should be able to be solved by an average member of this board. So please, no puzzles whose solutions require you to write a program or solve some extremely obscure mathematical equation.
I don't see how this is extremely obscure. My children could solve this one, if I had any children that is. And they would be no more than seven years old too, are you saying your level in math is less than a hypothetical seven years old's?

Stigant, it's your turn. :)

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02-20-2005 at 10:01 PM
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stigant
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from the rules page:
4. NEW RULE 1/1/04: The puzzle should be able to be solved by an average member of this board. So please, no puzzles whose solutions require you to write a program or solve some extremely obscure mathematical equation. Those aren't puzzles anymore, they are problems. We can't stop you from writing a program to solve a "normal" puzzle (although the spirit of the game is to solve the puzzles by hand), but I will have to now prohibit puzzles that require a programming solution or knowledge that is too esoteric or requires a lot of education in a particular field to solve.

So the question is whether this is an obscure mathematical equation. Which is probably highly subjective. My puzzle is just basic probability and counting definitions. I'm pretty sure I could have solved that problem when I was in high school, but I wasn't exactly an average math student. The current puzzle is medium-level statistics. I wouldn't say that the equations are obscure, but you probably wouldn't see this in a HS stat class either. Its more college level stat, but the kind that even non-math/stat majors would take. Neither one of these problems requires, IMO, a lot of training (say, defined by needing a bachelors level degree) in either math or stat to solve.


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02-20-2005 at 10:04 PM
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stigant
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That's one smart hypothetical 7 year old... I mean my solution requires at the very least, solving simultaneous equations. I teach Alg II at an academic magnet school, and most of my students would get headaches just solving the equations. I certainly wouldn't expect them to write the equations from scratch.

I'll post another puzzle in a little bit. I need to do some more grading and I don't have one in mind yet.

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02-20-2005 at 10:07 PM
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agaricus5
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Maurog wrote:
4. NEW RULE 1/1/04: The puzzle should be able to be solved by an average member of this board. So please, no puzzles whose solutions require you to write a program or solve some extremely obscure mathematical equation.
I don't see how this is extremely obscure. My children could solve this one, if I had any children that is. And they would be no more than seven years old too, are you saying your level in math is less than a hypothetical seven years old's?

Stigant, it's your turn. :)
Umm... I think a seven year old might be a slight exaggeration, unless they happened to be a genius at combinatorics.

In all fairness, I'm not bad at maths myself, but I am poor at statistics (I cannot understand some of the ideas presented, and so I detest parts of the subject), and the explanation given doesn't make much sense to me. It's probably something to do with a hypothetical probability distribution, but I don't understand the notation used (at the moment) or how this applies to the pirate. [Don't worry - I'll figure it out myself later]

However, I will say, though, that with some logic, I'd probably be able to work out the solution from first principles myself, without resorting to anything more complicated than a set of tree diagrams, so I don't think this puzzle quite comes under the "extremely obscure mathematical equation" category.

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02-20-2005 at 10:12 PM
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Maurog
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Ok, maybe it isn't trivial, but if there is no challenge it's not fun at all, is it?

I find the solution easier to digest if you make the pirate move in twosteps. We have three positions:
==O==         O==== / ====O      _\\O/_

Middle           End              Dead

The pirate starts in Middle position. After two steps he is either back in Middle or at the End with 50% probability (you just check all four combinations of left/right). Since we are looking for the average of steps from position Middle, we get
M = 50% * (M + 2) + 50% * (E + 2).
Let's see what happens in the End position. The pirate has a 50% chance to become shark bait after just one step. If he doesn't die, after a twostep he's either back at End or in the Middle. So we get
E = 50% * 1 + 25% * (E + 2) + 25% * (M + 2).
Now it's just simple equasions. M = E + 4; 50% * E = 2.5; E = 5; M = 9.

Oh yeah, I would expect my hypothetical children to be pretty good at combinatorics at age 7, naturally.

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02-20-2005 at 10:42 PM
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Mattcrampy
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That reminds me of a riddle -

Take our regular pirate, who's one step away from becoming fishbait. He's on land, though, so there's an infinite amount of steps he could take in the other direction. If he randomly staggers towards and away from the water, how many steps, on average, will it take for him to fall in?

(This isn't part of the game. Answer tomorrow.)

Matt

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02-21-2005 at 12:53 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Mattcrampy wrote:
That reminds me of a riddle -

Take our regular pirate, who's one step away from becoming fishbait. He's on land, though, so there's an infinite amount of steps he could take in the other direction. If he randomly staggers towards and away from the water, how many steps, on average, will it take for him to fall in?

(This isn't part of the game. Answer tomorrow.)

Matt

There is no average in it. The only thing whats sure ist that he falls in somewhen. (Because the possiblilty is not zero). If the guy is on the earth he will somewhen have the water one step to his right.
02-21-2005 at 11:01 AM
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