DiMono
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So I finally got around to starting on my hold. I've only done the first level, and here it is for all of you to play! Yay!

It's not really hard, and it's not meant to be, but I want to know if poeple find it fun, so any feedback at all is welcome and encouraged.

[Edited by DiMono on 03-16-2004 at 04:53 AM GMT]

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eytanz
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I like it - it's one of the few holds created so far that are playable to someone who hasn't finished Dugan's Dungeon.

That said, my major gripe is the lack of checkpoints - just because the hold doesn't contain any fancy puzzles is no excuse not to use them. The room which suffers most from the lack of one is 2N (and maybe rooms beyond it - I don't know, since I haven't seen them). In fact, as usual, I refuse to continue playing this hold until it gets one.

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Scott
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I agree eytan. There should be checkpoints. That said I have completed it. It wasn't that hard but I did have to restart a few times because I made a silly mistake.

DiMono
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Thanks both of you. My plan for the hold is to progress similarly to Dugan's Dungeon, with the levels getting progressively more hard/interesting. I have this bizarre idea with goblins and trap doors that should be really challenging.

I'll put the checkpoint in when I get home, and re-upload the hold. That's the one which accidentally ended up looking like Brock Lesnar's tattoo, right?

Scott, did you beat 3N both ways? And do you think 3N1E would benefit from a scroll about how the difficulty changes a lot depending on how you start?

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krammer
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Yes, I agree. Any room which involves this number of monsters needs a checkpoint, because it's so easy to slip up and very tedious to keep replaying when you know what to do.

It's perhaps a little repetitive, but maybe that's what you're aiming at. A nice distraction, anyway.

DiMono - I wouldn't put a scroll in, unless it's behind a green door, because it takes some of the challenge of the room away. And I did 3N the hard way because I hadn't noticed the alternative.

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krammer
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Yes, I agree. Any room which involves this number of monsters needs a checkpoint, because it's so easy to slip up and very tedious to keep replaying when you know what to do.

It's perhaps a little repetitive, but maybe that's what you're aiming at. A nice distraction, anyway.

DiMono - I wouldn't put a scroll in, unless it's behind a green door, because it takes some of the challenge of the room away. And I did 3N the hard way because I hadn't noticed the alternative.

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DiMono
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krammer, that post was submitted three times. that post was submitted three times. that post was submitted three times.

Thanks for your comments too. Does anyone know if you can put a scroll on top of a green door? Since I think there's a green door there anyway... I wish I were at my home computer right now...

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Oneiromancer
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It will undoubtedly show up as an error in the editor if you were to try to do so. I haven't seen the room, since I am waiting for the checkpoints Eytan was so concerned about, but I imagine you should be able to make room somewhere...perhaps even in the next room.

Game on,

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Scott
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Yes I did 3N the hard way because I didn't realise there was an easy way. In fact I didn't realise there was as easy way until you asked. I don't think a scroll is needed in 3N1E.

DiMono
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Alright, here's the level with some checkpoints in 2N, and I'm too tired to try putting a scroll on a green door. Have fun in 3N

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krammer
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Sorry about the triple-posting - unfortunately, I can't seem to delete the extras, I just get a 404 error page. I did try though, honest.

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Oneiromancer
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DiMono wrote:
Alright, here's the level with some checkpoints in 2N, and I'm too tired to try putting a scroll on a green door. Have fun in 3N

Unless 24 people have downloaded it since you updated it, I don't think you supplied us with an updated hold yet.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

DiMono
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That was bizarre, the hold didn't get uploaded. The forum was acting slowly on my computer last night, and after a couple minutes of nothing happening I went to a different site, I guess the hold didn't get transferred before I did that. I'll try to post it again today when I get home. Sorry about that.


Okay, the updated hold is at the top of this thread. I also changed the checkpoint room a little, something inspired from another thread in this board. Have fun everyone!

[Edited by DiMono on 12-11-2003 at 12:31 AM GMT: New Hold file at top of thread]

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DiMono
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Bump, so people know I updated the hold. The time stamp didn't change, and I'm not sure if the folder turned red.

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DiMono
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Because it seems like a reasonable way to do things, I'm going to follow Red_Hawk's lead and keep updating one thread with new versions of my hold. Here and at the top of the thread are the new version of the hold I'm working on, with stairs to jump straight to level 2 if you want, since that's the new level anyway

Again, the new level's not very hard (though a little harder than the first, I hope), and I mainly want to know if people enjoy playing through it.

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DiMono
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This used to be called "Hold me", but that was a temporary name until I settled on one. I've now decided to call it "King Reubus' Palace", and finished designing levels 3 and 4. There's a warp in the first room to level 3, so you don't have to replay the first 2 levels if you've played them already. It's also anyone edit, so you can meddle if you want to.

One of the rooms in level 3 is really very difficult (or tedious, I don't know which since my perspective is jaded from having designed it), so if I get a lot of comments saying it's way too hard then I'll pull it. The next section of this hold that I want to do is 3 levels, so when all 3 of them are finished I'll post up a new version.

Again, please let me know if you enjoy playing it, and any suggestions are more than welcome.

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The_Red_Hawk
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Why is the first Cellar called level 1 and the second Cellar called level 2?

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Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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There are two cellar levels, one of which is cellar level one and the other is cellar level two. It's levels of the cellar, not levels of the hold.

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The_Red_Hawk
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Then I think you should say "The First Cellar" and "The Second Cellar" or something like that to avoid confusion.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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Maybe, we'll see what happens. The First and The Second seem a little awkward as I read it there, but if it's a source of confusion I'll try to change it to something else. The next three levels are The Dungeon - Levels 1-3, do you think if they were done too it would have been more evident what was meant?

Edit: How about "Upper Cellar" and "Lower Cellar"? And then "Upper Dungeon", "Dungeon" and "Lower Dungeon" or some such?

[Edited by DiMono on 01-02-2004 at 11:36 PM GMT]

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The_Red_Hawk
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Sure, that would be fine.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

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Um... which is fine? Adding the Dungeon levels, or the name changes?

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The_Red_Hawk
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The name changes.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
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I've had a look through, and it's an interesting hold. Some of the serpent and wraithwing manipulations are rather interesting and have been well made.

Some positives:

Cellar 1 1N 1E - I liked the way you needed to use room topology to save you from too many Roaches attacking from too many directions. The spawn rate of 22 Roaches/30 moves also made it hard gaining ground, although eventually chasing the queens off their Force Arrows lessened the problem.

Cellar 2 1N - When I saw the room, I began to think some really abstract thoughts about the room's solution (Probably caused by having designed puzzles like this recently) and tried for a few minutes to get the queen to go into the Snake chamber. I suddenly realised it was much simpler than that -
and was thoroughly upset by my overcomplication of the puzzle.

Cellar 2 1N 2E - I liked this room, for you had to manipulate Roahes, a serpent and cut holes in crumbly walls all at the same time.

The Pit (General) - The Wraithwing manipulation puzzles here were well thought out and created, although 1N could have been harder. i suggest removing all the trapdoors except for one thin strip in the centre of the area between the green door extensions just to force the player to get behind the green door faster.

Some Negatives:

Cellar 1 1E, 2E and 1N 1E - A minor thing, but I did find the misaligning passages between rooms to be a little annoying when travelling between rooms. I know it's part of the design, but I think the passages should be aligned with each other.

Cellar 2 2N 1E - I think the room should be modified as serpents seem to prefer going North to South, and I found it almost impossible to direct the Serpent correctly. I know this adds to the difficulty, but I don't think people are going to appreciate having to understand Serpent behaviour so well to be able to send it into the south-east corner of the room. I think moving the dead end to the northern corners will help/

Cellar 2 1S 1E - If you leave the room uncompleted from either the north or south exit, you cannot return as the serpents block your way in, and you need to restore to return to 1S 1E. It's only minor again, but a passage leading back to another room from these would be nice.

That's about it for now. I haven't completed every single room, but I may try later on. Thanks for the Anyone Edit - it made it much easier to playtest.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 01-04-2004 at 05:10 PM GMT]

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bandit1200
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agaricus5 wrote:
Cellar 2 1N - When I saw the room, I began to think some really abstract thoughts about the room's solution (Probably caused by having designed puzzles like this recently) and tried for a few minutes to get the queen to go into the Snake chamber. I suddenly realised it was much simpler than that -

Click here to view the secret text

×use the Roaches, not the Queen, to kill the Serpent,

and was thoroughly upset by my overcomplication of the puzzle.

There's an even easier solution.

Cellar 2 2N 1E - I think the room should be modified as serpents seem to prefer going North to South, and I found it almost impossible to direct the Serpent correctly. I know this adds to the difficulty, but I don't think people are going to appreciate having to understand Serpent behaviour so well to be able to send it into the south-east corner of the room. I think moving the dead end to the northern corners will help/

I gave up on this one. I was spending too much time moving around trying to entice the snakes into the corners.

bandit1200
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This hold gave me an enjoyable couple of hours this evening. Probably longer than that, but you know how time flies, and fruit flies like a banana. Anyways, I didn't complete two rooms, namely Cellar2 2N 1E and The Pit 1N 1W. In the former, I got bored of the snakes turning away when I got them near the SE and SW corners, (or killing me), and in the latter I was simply unable to get the wraith lined up to finish it off.

[Edit] I went back and managed to kill the wraith. How did you know I suffered from gout?

Some other holds I have found unplayable - for me, others will obviously have a different opinion - but this was just fun.

[Edited by bandit1200 on 01-04-2004 at 11:38 PM GMT]

Scott
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I didn't have much trouble with the snakes in 2N1E.



1N1W I can't work out how to trap the wraithwing there.

DiMono
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Cellar 2 2N1E is, in fact, the room I thought might not have a place on this level. It's not so much that it's difficult, it's just very tedious waiting for the second snake to take the bait. I think I'll pull it, and reinsert it in a later level (like 15 or so...)

And I didn't know Cellar 1 1N1E was POSSIBLE on the first entry. It's really much easier if you finish 2N1E first, and then come back down on the other side of the Queens. I salute you for having the patience to do it on the first entry.

Cellar 2 1S1E: Problem solved. Go Go Gadget Green Doors! (Heh, aliteration... sort of)

And finally, The Pit 1N: I don't mind it being a little easy, since my emphasis for this hold is fun Though some later levels will be quite the challenge.

Thanks all of you for your time playing and critiquing. You help us all make better holds. To save time and aggravation, I'll wait until the next release of this hold to post up the fixes I've made.

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bandit1200
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Scott wrote:
I didn't have much trouble with the snakes in 2N1E.

Click here to view the secret text

×Enter from the top right and one snake will get trapped straight away

Cheers Scott! I went back and did it that way first go. In fact, I had a couple more goes,

1N1W I can't work out how to trap the wraithwing there.

[Edited by bandit1200 on 01-06-2004 at 08:03 AM GMT]

DiMono
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Yeah, there are a couple rooms in this hold that require you to re-enter from a different direction to clear. It's just something I think is neat.

For anyone who doesn't like this, I just finished designing level 5, and none of the rooms on that level require this

Oh, and Bandit, you might want to make sure you have the same number of [quote] and [/quote], as your message looks a little awkward.

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