eytanz
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StuartK wrote:
Hanoi Tower is going to be by far the longest solution though. If a puzzle element takes 8 tiles, that's a total of 152, or 2^152 orb activations to get to the solution, not counting the number of steps. If a puzzle element can take 6 tiles (note I've not worked this out) that's 2^202 orb activations. Any solution will take far longer than the projected end of this universe to complete, unless Erik really works on those DROD speed improvements

I want to see an actual Hanoi implementation - I've been trying to think how I'd do one but for some reason my brain doesn't seem to come up with one.

Stupid brain.

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Mikko
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File: Hanoi.hold (890 bytes)
Downloaded 171 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Here is the Hanoi puzzle from my hold. It's meant to be solvable in a relatively short time, so I didn't even try to optimise it in anyway (especially since it's on level five and I'm still working on levels two and three).

eytanz
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Hmmm... I like the room, but I just can't grasp the connection between this and the hanoi puzzle... But maybe I'm focusing on the wrong elements.


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Watcher
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File: Hanoi Tower.hold (915 bytes)
Downloaded 182 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

eytanz wrote:
I want to see an actual Hanoi implementation - I've been trying to think how I'd do one but for some reason my brain doesn't seem to come up with one.

Stupid brain.

Here's my implementation of the Hanoi puzzle for six discs. It's a bit more intuitive than Mikko's. Basically, the big yellow doors represent the disc positions, and the discs are marked by open doors. At first, all discs are to the left. You have to move them to the right, so you can reach the stairs. The small doors blocking the orbs are always at opposite setting to the corresponding disc position. Each orb switches all four doors at the same height in the two other towers.

This means that to move disc number N between towers A and B, you hit the orb in tower C. This is possible only if all the big doors above the Nth level are open in tower C (meaning that all discs smaller than N are found in tower C) and if the small door at level N is open in tower C (meaning that the corresponding big door is closed, meaning that disc N is not in tower C). Mikko's implementation is essentially the same.

If the big doors are made a bit smaller, you'll have enough space to make the towers "wrap around" so you can continue the towers upwards. According to my calculations, there should be just enough space for three 27-disc towers, a puzzle that would require 134,217,727 orb-bangings to solve.

And that's not even taking moving into account.

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bibelot
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The exit room of level 1 of my "Ricky's Dungeon" also contains a similar configuration, in the sense that, given the right initial configurations, the number of orb hits doubles with each additional compartment. This is also fairly compact, and though I haven't tried to check how many compartments could fit, it seems like it should hold at least 100, after suitably shrinking the compartments.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, for it to be possible to make a room that takes far, far more time than any Hanoi-based room. I'll have to think about it...

[Edited by bibelot on 11-17-2003 at 06:46 AM GMT]

ClaytonW
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What really scares me about the Hanoi approach, is that if you save a little space, and block the level exit with an extra yellow gate, you could use an orb near the exit to open the door by the exit, reset all gates to their original status, and force Beethro to go back to the start of the Hanoi puzzle, and work his way through it AGAIN to get to the exit.

StuartK
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File: Snake Spiral the Second.hold (2 KB)
Downloaded 150 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

A new revision of the snake 'spiral' (the snakes themselves are in spirals of their own now) Solutions can take one of 3 forms

1) Remove the snakes all at once (this is the one that requires a rather large pot of coffee) 1.29x10^23 moves.

2) Remove a snake at a time, a-la levelthirteens excellent solution for the last one.

3) Have a go at chipping away at some of the snakes to see if you can improve on the speed in 2. I have made a few attempts at this, but haven't finished a demo as yet due to goofs, so this is 'untested' If 2 is possible (i.e. the room isn't broken) so is 3, since I know I can remove at least some snakes early. This probably still has an extremely long solution though - I may tweak the room later, but I've already spent too long on it.


BTW it was a puzzle in itself getting everything to fit here. I'm kinda proud of this one, even though it's a very silly room, from a normal players point of view.

levelthirteen
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File: Snake_Spiral.java (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 123 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

StuartK wrote:
If 2 is possible (i.e. the room isn't broken) so is 3, since I know I can remove at least some snakes early. This probably still has an extremely long solution though - I may tweak the room later, but I've already spent too long on it.

Hope you hawe a really high key repeat rate . . .
Delete the snake of length 6 on move number 383
Delete the snake of length 10 on move number 969
Delete the snake of length 14 on move number 993
Delete the snake of length 22 on move number 4839
Delete the snake of length 26 on move number 12245
Delete the snake of length 34 on move number 24207
Delete the snake of length 38 on move number 38645
Delete the snake of length 46 on move number 267903
Delete the snake of length 58 on move number 816233
Delete the snake of length 62 on move number 1128585
Delete the snake of length 74 on move number 1517739
Delete the snake of length 82 on move number 1787599
Delete the snake of length 86 on move number 1788541
Delete the snake of length 94 on move number 1792673
Delete the snake of length 106 on move number 1806345
Delete the snake of length 118 on move number 1806461
Delete the snake of length 134 on move number 1806587
Also, see the last few posts of
this thread for a demo of the original snake spiral.

zex20913
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Delete the snake of length 6 on move number 353
Delete the snake of length 10 on move number 1389
Delete the snake of length 14 on move number 3961
Delete the snake of length 22 on move number 26003
Delete the snake of length 26 on move number 58941
Delete the snake of length 36 on move number 209951
Delete the snake of length 38 on move number 236169
Delete the snake of length 46 on move number 244443
Delete the snake of length 56 on move number 372903
Delete the snake of length 60 on move number 528299
Delete the snake of length 74 on move number 578013
Delete the snake of length 84 on move number 585059
Delete the snake of length 86 on move number 586003
Delete the snake of length 94 on move number 586183
Delete the snake of length 166 on move number 586311

There is a bit of a shorter way, that I found by luck alone. I have killed all but the last five snakes, so I'll stop before then and let somebody else do it.

Delete the snake of length 6 on move number 353. (The sixth move will also work, because the 2-square snake will move towards the yellow doors.)
Delete the snake of length 10 on move number 1389
Delete the snake of length 14 after one rotation, I think. (Same rule applies for the first.)
Delete the snake of length 22 on move number 4003 (This will cause one snake to shorten, but it will still go on the yellow doors.)
Delete the snake of length 26 on move 21851
Delete the snake of length 36 on move 36569

Oops...I've realized that sometimes you kill 2(!) snakes, so I'll just list the moves from now.

40263
46553

That will leave you with 5 snakes, and certainly fewer than 200,000 moves overall.


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levelthirteen
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File: snake spiral .txt (636 bytes)
Downloaded 152 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

zex20913 wrote:
There is a bit of a shorter way, that I found by luck alone. I have killed all but the last five snakes, so I'll stop before then and let somebody else do it.
That will leave you with 5 snakes, and certainly fewer than 200,000 moves overall.

Rerunning with IgnoreEasyToKillSnakes gives a partial solution that takes far less then 200,000 moves. Perhaps someone with more skill or a sticky '5' key can find an even shorter solution.

[Edited by levelthirteen on 11-25-2003 at 06:38 PM GMT: formating]

StuartK
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levelthirteen wrote:
Rerunning with IgnoreEasyToKillSnakes gives a partial solution that takes far less then 200,000 moves. Perhaps someone with more skill or a sticky '5' key can find an even shorter solution.

FWIW, I can get rid of snakes 6, 10, 14, 26, 46 & 118 within 702 moves (probably less with practice) These are the 'easiest' to kill.

Some others might be considered easyish to remove in a similar manner (a bit at a time) but if the snakes accidentally get too short, or the wrong length, they can go into a holding pattern, never getting anywhere near the doors (even though some of these snakes supposedly are trying to move towards Beethro)

It's feasible I think to make a simulation of the various ways snakes might move, depending on how much they're shortened, and when, such that the snake shortens a decent length by trapping itself, then finds its way back onto the doors to be finished off (i.e. getting there of their own accord, given that Beethro doesn't have much opportunity to influence them)

1. Find a set of 'good' times to shorten each snake and by how much (independant of the snakes around it, and assuming Beethro remains stationary) If it exists, each of these 'good' times would repeat every so often (for instance, every fifth circuit)

2. Search for the combination of orb hits that most efficiently allows all the snakes to shorten appropriately, also allowing time for Beethro to keep the doors closed to finish each off.

If such shortcuts exist, a final best solution would probably be a combination of

1. Really easy to kill snakes
2. Snakes killed using the outlined technique
3. 'Easy' to kill snakes as per zex's contribution
4. Any remaining stragglers.

StuartK
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Delete the snake of length 36 on move number 209951

There's a snake of length 5*6+4=34 (actually 33, but the circuit length is 34) at the bottom right, and one of 6*6+2=38 (37) middle right, but no 36. Please adjust your kodez accordingly.

StuartK
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As a for-instance.

Watching the snake of length 34 at the bottom right (and ignoring all the others)

Switch on the orb at turn 101, switch off again at 104 (or else turns 135-13 Ignore this snake until turn 233, then switch the orb on again until turn 245.

The pattern repeats every 5 circuits or 170 turns.

StuartK
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File: SStS Snake Spiral The Entrance Victory.demo (2.5 KB)
Downloaded 131 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I've completed the room in ~2000 moves, and in all likelihood, there is also a much shorter solution if I do more stuff at the same time. I was being methodical at first, but made some mistakes, and (surprising to me too) managed to muddle through the endgame. Demo attached.


The room is somewhat broken BTW. The level exit seems to lead to a beta version of my other spiral hold. What a bummer for someone who decided to do the full solution. I don't think there's a smiley to qualify for the full evil horribleness of that

DiMono
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Man, and here I thought I might get somewhere with my 40,000 move room... I just can't compete with 2 billion in the 27 layer hanoi puzzle.

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DiMono
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File: The 65 billion move man.hold (1.8 KB)
Downloaded 149 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I stand corrected: I CAN compete with 2 billion moves. I basically took RoboBob's idea, which is one I'd also been kicking around for a while but couldn't think of a good way to implement, and maximized it. Then I threw in some brained roach queens and a simple puzzle to make it fun

Here are the snakes' circuit lengths:

22 2*11
38 2*19
58 2*29
74 2*37
90 2*3*3*5 (there had to be one that wasn't 2 * some prime, right?)
106 2*53
122 2*61

Breaking this down to required primes for the lowest common multiple gives:
2 * 3 * 3 * 5 * 11 * 19 * 29 * 37 * 53 * 61 = 65,252,059,290

Adding in the roach queens and the puzzle makes the total length of this room roughly 65,252,062,000. Similarly to RoboBob's room, if you use the editor and start Beethro one square to the west you can solve it in all of a few hundred moves. I actually do recommend playing around with this hold in the editor, as I put something neat in there somewhere.

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Scott
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I hope no one waits for 65 billon moves because the room isn't solveable. Can't get out once you hit the last orb to open the door to the stairs.

Schik
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Scott wrote:
I hope no one waits for 65 billon moves because the room isn't solveable. Can't get out once you hit the last orb to open the door to the stairs.

DANG! I was at about 63 billion...

*sigh*

C'mon DiMono - don't you remember the rules? Playtest before you release!!!

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DiMono
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Scott wrote:
I hope no one waits for 65 billon moves because the room isn't solveable. Can't get out once you hit the last orb to open the door to the stairs.

Well damn, you're right. I'll just have to move that trap door one tile to the west, and rerelease the new and improved 65 billion move man hold.

I could probably submit something about how this happened to the Architect Toolkit at some point: I realized there was a trivial solution to the room when the trapdoor and arrows were on the top-left corners of the snake circuits: you could just go south in the outermost circuit after about 200 turns, and not have to wait 65 billion at all. So I moved the trapdoor and arrows to their current location, and forgot to playtest it again to make sure it was still solvable.

Ah well, lesson learned. Look for a new version later tonight, when I get home

Edit: Did anyone look at the scroll and the ending?

[Edited by DiMono on 01-14-2004 at 03:42 PM GMT]

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Scott
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Well you don't have to wait very long to look at the scroll so yeah I did.

DiMono
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File: The 114 billion move man.hold (2 KB)
Downloaded 154 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Well, not only did I fix the problem with the old room, but I made it almost twice as long! Here are the new snake circuit lengths:

22 2*11
38 2*19
58 2*29
74 2*37
94 2*47
118 2*59
184 2*2*2*23

Multiplying 2*2*2*11*19*23*29*37*47*59 gives us...

114,423,097,624 turns waiting!

And then you throw in the roach queens and puzzle for about 114,423,100,000 total moves. I could have made this much larger, but I'd have lost the fun bit at the end

Just for fun, at 3 moves a turn, playing absolutely non-stop, no sleep, no food, it would take over 1208 years to play this room.

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The_Red_Hawk
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DiMono wrote:
Just for fun, at 3 moves a turn, playing absolutely non-stop, no sleep, no food, it would take over 1208 years to play this room.

How did you figure that?

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Schik
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:

DiMono wrote:
Just for fun, at 3 moves a turn, playing absolutely non-stop, no sleep, no food, it would take over 1208 years to play this room.

How did you figure that?

If we assume that meant 3 moves a second, then I'm sure he divided the number of total moves required by 3 times the number of seconds in a year.

What is this, puzzle tag?

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The_Red_Hawk
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Oops, sorry - I interpreted that wrong. But when I tested it out, it was more like 5 moves/second. Like that would make any difference.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

levelthirteen
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File: T83bmm The room The Entrance Victory.demo (2.7 KB)
Downloaded 152 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

DiMono wrote:
Multiplying 2*2*2*11*19*23*29*37*47*59 gives us...

114,423,097,624 turns waiting!

TThhaannkkss ttoo aann iinnssaanneellyy hhiigghh kkeeyy rreeppeeaatt rraattee,, II hhaavvee aa vviiccttoorryy ddeemmoo aattaacchheedd..

DiMono
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File: The 114 billion move man.hold (2 KB)
Downloaded 119 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Yeah, I realized that mistake when I was falling asleep last night. Here's a corrected version, for those interested

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RoboBob3000
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Sweet room! I was waiting for someone to try and maximize that. Snake spirals are definately cooler than Hanoi Towers. Hats off to you.

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RoboBob3000
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File: 1716346464360.hold (2 KB)
Downloaded 139 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Over 1,716,346,464,360 moves!

Here's a copy of DiMono's room, but with a snake of length 3 and a snake of length 5 worked into the mix. We were just so close to one trillion that I had to try and top it, and I did successfully. All credit to DiMono, though. The majority of this is his work.

The snakes of 3 and 5 offer a new way to do the snake spiraling, so I encourage people to check it out and see if it could be done even better yet. I'm sure it can.

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DiMono
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I'll have you know I'm working on a new room, one that will be well over 2 trillion moves. Look for it after the weekend

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Watcher
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File: Eternity.hold (1.5 KB)
Downloaded 218 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Never underestimate the power of a bored mathematician!

I can not only top 2 trillion, I can top that number squared. The attached hold is an implementation of bibelot's orb puzzle, which he mentioned earlier in the thread. This version, however, contains 108 orbs. Solving the room from the given starting position requires 2^108 - 1 orb-bangings. This number is equal to 324,518,553,658,426,726,783,156,020,576,265. Due to the long corridor at the bottom, the number of moves is more than 40 times as many. That gives the solution a length of nearly 13 decillion.

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