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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

All right, by popular request I have included a room at the start of level 1 with a warp to every level. I know you'll still want me to get an Anyone Edit version, but I won't go that far until I'm done level 25. The original 1:The Entrance has be temporarily relocated to 3N and will be moved back in the final release. I realize that now you cannot play that room from the start, and so the previous release is still up.

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Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-10-2004 at 12:25 AM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Ok, I'm stuck in level 14, 1S2E -

Click here to view the secret text

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01-14-2004 at 02:03 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Assuming I think I know which room you're talking about -

When I tested it, I found that the snake needed to still be maximum length when it got to the end. Any shorter and it's impossible, as far as I know. I remember this room was very hard, and even with 10 squares there is only one movement pattern that will block the roaches. However, I can confirm that it *is* possible. Sorry I can't post a demo, because I do all my testing in the editor.

If you like, I'll change it for the next version

but I assume that would be a last resort if it was absolutely too hard.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-14-2004 at 05:29 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

I can get the serpent to the second room (past the trapdoor) without shortening it, but it invariably locks itself in a position where it must get a bit shorter to free itself when I try to cross over...

Anyway, I think I'll leave this room for later - I still have all of level 15 (I still haven't solved the entrance - have you moved the checkpoint in a later release? I still have the first release of this level), as well as levels 17-20.

By the way, I have to say that level 14 is very uneven - except for this one room, it's one of your easiest levels yet, but this room includes two of the toughest tasks in the game - serpent manipulation, and a tar maze - in conjunction, with no margin of error to boot.

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01-15-2004 at 03:30 AM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Whew! Finally solved the level 15 entrance - only to discover that 1E is totally trivial. I can't even imagine what the puzzle is supposed to be... :dontgetit

:dontgetit

Oh, and in 1S1E:

Click here to view the secret text

[Edited by eytanz on 01-15-2004 at 04:42 AM GMT]

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01-15-2004 at 04:38 AM

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Scott
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

I assumed that you had to do it that way.

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01-15-2004 at 06:13 AM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Scott wrote:
I assumed that you had to do it that way.

Click here to view the secret text
×I thought the snake was to allow you to block the roaches off the force arrow.

Oh, I know it was - I was just wandering if you could do both

Click here to view the secret text

Given that the rest of the level includes some incredibly trivial rooms (2S3E, for instance), I was probably over-thinking it.

(oh, and I was amused to discover that Red_hawk's kitchen cupboard is infested with goblins and tar - but luckily, only very few roaches)

[Edited by eytanz on 01-15-2004 at 06:29 AM GMT]

[Edited by eytanz on 01-15-2004 at 06:31 AM GMT]

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01-15-2004 at 06:22 AM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The checkpoint in the L15 entrance has been moved and yes, you are supposed to use the snake to block the roaches in 1S1E.

You know, all of levels 14-16 are probably quite easy. 17 too, probably, and 18 is something else (better not give it away). However, for 19 and 20, I think they're ALOT HARDER

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-15-2004 at 04:47 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Ok, I hate to ask, but -

Is L15, 4E, possible? If the tar grows even one step into the rightmost corridor, then you can't kill the mother. So, you need to either reach the invisibility potion in a single growth cycle, or the entrance to the mother area. I've managed to clear all the tar from the starting area using the roaches to stop the tar growth, but that's impossible once you're in the goblin area - and there's no entry point I could find which allows you to get through the goblin area fast enough to reach either the mother or the potion.

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01-15-2004 at 05:05 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

It is most certainly possible. As far as I know, there is only one entrance and one sword position which will allow you through.

If my memory serves me correctly, you have to kill 1 goblin on the way. The rest will be tagging along behind, and you will get to the potion with 1 move to spare.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-15-2004 at 05:20 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Could you give me a hint, please? I just can't seem to do it.

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01-15-2004 at 05:56 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Right now, I'm at a computer that doesn't have DROD installed, but I'll give you some hints now. If it's not enough, I'll give you more when I'm at my regular computer.

1.

Click here to view the secret text

EDIT: Oops! I read your previous post. Yes, you did. Next hint!

2.

Click here to view the secret text

3.

Click here to view the secret text

Probably those weren't very good hints, since I can't see the room right now. I hope it helps though.....

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 01-15-2004 at 06:56 PM GMT]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-15-2004 at 06:53 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The problem is:

Click here to view the secret text

In general, by the way, levels 14 and 15 suffer from the same design issue - a lot of very easy rooms, one or two incredibly tough ones. That's bad design - levels should be more or less on a constant difficulty level, or they get frustrating or boring. At least in level 14, it's not linear, so you get a choice of doing other stuff.

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01-15-2004 at 07:05 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

You know, I make all rooms as hard as I can. Just sometimes I can't think of anything.

There's only one other room in level 15, and it doesn't even have any monsters. Just mimic/tar/trapdoor manipulation.

Actually, as far as I know it is possible to reach the potion wiht sword west. That's how I did it.

Do you think I should change the room?

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-15-2004 at 09:28 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
You know, I make all rooms as hard as I can. Just sometimes I can't think of anything.

Well, the earlier rooms in the hold include that silly "hack and slash" room, the "cream pie" room which was very very easy, and the room with the snakes and goblins and invisibility potions where you had a very wide margin of error for everything if you did the solution the intended way (there's an even easier unintended solution in that room that I didn't post because the normal solution shouldn't challenge anyone who could reach this point in your hold).

There's only one other room in level 15, and it doesn't even have any monsters. Just mimic/tar/trapdoor manipulation.

I'll probably skip it and finally upgrade to the version with levels 17-20, then.

Actually, as far as I know it is possible to reach the potion wiht sword west. That's how I did it.

It's possible - but there's a goblin just above it, so if you don't turn your sword first the goblin kills you. Either that or I'm missing something.

Do you think I should change the room?

That's a tough question - I believe you that the room is solvable, but it's extremely difficult. It seems a shame to make it easier and ruin the puzzle, but it will be a major sticking point for people going through the hold.

Maybe include an easier version of it, and also a hard, non-required version of it as a bonus room somewhere? That way you'll get the best of both worlds.

(The best way to make it easier, by the way, is to change the square just to the left of where the roaches stand now to a breakable wall (and add a wall on the other side if necessary so you can only reach it one way - I can't see the room here in my office). That way, there's a grace period of one tar extra cycle to use to clear goblins - still a difficult task - and you still have to be careful while cleaning the tar since if you waste it, you'll have to do the goblins the hard way (which at least for me, is harder than doing the tar clearing, since I managed that).

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01-15-2004 at 09:40 PM

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Scott
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

I solved the tar mother part but I still can't finish the room. Can someone tell me how to kill the goblins that are left in my screenshot? And don't say you have to keep them out because 2 of them start in that area.

01-16-2004 at 12:57 AM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

That's weird. I know I played it right through while testing it, and I don't think that I met any obstable there. Still, I think it might be possible. If not, I'll change it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-16-2004 at 01:12 AM

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DiMono
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
You know, I make all rooms as hard as I can.

Enjoyment factor should always come before difficulty. To prove my point, most of the rooms in level 1 and what I played of level 2 were not very difficult, but were really really tedious. If I were you, I'd take a break from designing to go play through it in gameplay mode, because I'm almost certain you've lost your perspective if you're just trying to make the 25 most difficult levels you can think of. If you get too frustrated with it to continue, then you've done something wrong.

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01-16-2004 at 09:28 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

No, no, I didn't mean that in a bad way. I try to keep all rooms as fun as possible too.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-16-2004 at 11:25 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

But the truth is, you're much better at it now than you were when you started. I know that you want to make a hold that's extremely large - I don't think that's a good goal, but it's your choice - but the truth is that the hold as it currently is suffers from several serious problems:

A - It's unbalanced. It starts with some hard rooms, gets harder, then gets easier, and then becomes a mixture of easy and hard.

B - It starts with some rooms that are mediocre - some have good ideas that are badly implemented, some are just not very interesting - and becomes better done as you go along, and your skills improved.

C - It has a lot of very repetitive rooms that just aren't fun. And a lot of them are in the beginning.

Basically, I think that once you get done with adding new rooms - you really should go over the whole thing again, get rid/clean up the bad/annoying rooms, and move rooms around so that either it starts easy and becomes hard or that it stays more or less consistent all along.

You have really good stuff in this hold - but the way the hold is currently arranged, most people won't give it enough of a chance to discover that, and even those that do will end up aggravated at a lot of points. That's just a shame.

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01-17-2004 at 12:48 AM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

eytanz wrote:
Basically, I think that once you get done with adding new rooms - you really should go over the whole thing again, get rid/clean up the bad/annoying rooms, and move rooms around so that either it starts easy and becomes hard or that it stays more or less consistent all along.

That's what I'm going to do. As said above, I will release an anyone-edit version at the end of level 25. This will allow me to clear up anything that needs addressing.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-17-2004 at 12:52 AM

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DiMono
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
As said above, I will release an anyone-edit version at the end of level 25. This will allow me to clear up anything that needs addressing.

I still think you should play the hold yourself and see if/when you get frustrated. I'm pretty sure you'll find some rooms that just aren't fun, or are way too hard, and you'll end up pulling rooms and merging levels. When I finish in the below-ground portion of my hold (I have a spiral staircase I think people will get a kick out of) that's exactly what I'm going to do, and anything that needs changing will get changed. Always remember that you're making the hold so the rest of us can play it.

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01-17-2004 at 11:57 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

All right, I went through my levels, and fixed the exits that weren't working correctly.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-18-2004 at 02:51 PM

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bandit1200
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The stairs in the warp room on level one take you to the wrong levels. Or at least the bigger numbers do, I only tried 16 to 20.
They take you to a higher level number, except for 20 which takes you back to the warp room

L17:1S1W can't be completed.

01-19-2004 at 01:36 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

bandit1200 wrote:
The stairs in the warp room on level one take you to the wrong levels. Or at least the bigger numbers do, I only tried 16 to 20.
They take you to a higher level number, except for 20 which takes you back to the warp room

OK, I'll look at that again.

L17:1S1W can't be completed.

Which one is that? I don't have the game with me right now? I'm pretty sure they're all possible.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-19-2004 at 05:27 PM

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bandit1200
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

jpg attached

btw, and I know you have called level 18 Slashfest, but what is the point of 1E? staying in the same spot and having to make around 1,000 key presses just isn't fun, especially if you slip and have to start again. you might gather I didn't bother with level 18. plenty of fun to be had in other rooms, but that one room brings the fun factor down with a bang.

[Edited by bandit1200 on 01-19-2004 at 08:25 PM GMT]

01-19-2004 at 08:14 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

1S1E is completely possible. You just

Click here to view the secret text

And didn't you spot the scroll at the entrance to level 18? That's the point of Slashfest - 12 rooms of *only* hacking and slashing. I'm not really expecting people to like it, or even play it. I just thought it might be a second level 13 or something.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-20-2004 at 05:26 PM

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Oneiromancer
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
1S1E is completely possible. You just
Click here to view the secret text
× have to enter at the right spot

I don't see an orb to open the yellow door, nor a mimic potion or a space to put it, so how do you get from one side to the other?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

01-20-2004 at 06:19 PM

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Schik
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

I just attempted this room since it was creating such a ruckus, and I solved it on my first attempt. It's rather easy, actually.

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01-20-2004 at 06:38 PM

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The_Red_Hawk
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Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)

Oneiromancer wrote:
I don't see an orb to open the yellow door, nor a mimic potion or a space to put it, so how do you get from one side to the other?

Wow, I never thought there would be *anyone* who wouldn't get it easily. No offence.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

01-20-2004 at 07:03 PM

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