stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

ok, thoughts on 21 and 22:

Level 21:
I got to the end of this level and couldn't go back and that made me very frustrated, but about 1/2 way through working my way through the level again, I decided it wasn't all that bad the second time through. I had picked up some tricks to make the really tedious rooms less so.

1W: a nice puzzle. it requires efficiency, but you don't have to be perfect. you have to understand the room and how monsters work together, but not to the point of doing mindless trial and error. I think that the N orb ought to toggle the snake door as well (I don't see any particular reason to break symmetry unless you are trying to frustrate people).

1N: another subtle puzzle.

what are the columns (guarded by the red and yellow doors) for? Are they to kill the snakes? I didn't need them.
Also, you use the

Entrance: I'm not a huge fan of horde rooms, but this one is pretty simple once you figure out which trap doors to drop.

1S: Again, you need efficiency, but you don't have to be perfect. A check point might be nice over by the roach queens (I Think there's one under an arrow, but you can't use it without becoming trapped)

2S1E: The room never looked impossible to me (contrary to what the scroll said). It took forever to beat it and when I did, I stood up and celebrated. Its quite tedious and you have to be careful the whole way. I don't think you can make your point any better, but you can reduce some of the tediousness by adding some check points. I don't think it really matters where, but scattering about 6-8 of them around the room would help a lot.

1S1E: a decent ww puzzle. You have to figure out which entrance to come in. And you have all the major ww movement techniques incorporated into it. I've started to become a fan of ww rooms, though, so this one was pretty easy for me.

1E: not particularly difficult. I did have to go through it twice

1N1E: Ugh... I hate large eyeball rooms like this. In fact, you have sooooo many rooms on this level (and other levels) where you just have to brute force your way through. At least there are plenty of check points. And there is some subtle manipulation to be had (involving the arrows above the roaches).

2N1E: a good puzzle. I was about to say that you don't need the tar timer and BOTH mimics. But I see what you're trying to do there. You might want to decrease the tar timer. Also, killing all the roaches with the mimic and limited movement space took a little bit of inginuity.

2E: There are two ways to do this puzzle. I think thats a good thing.

1S2E: I came in the wrong door here and spent a lot of time getting frustrated. After I found the right entrance, it was pretty straightforward for this type of room.

2S2E: This kind of room (with a few subtle gotchas) is nice every now and then. One suggestion: Make one square next to the entrance to the roaches be crumbly so that when you finally get up there, you can wade through the roaches in 1/2 the time. Either that, or remove some of the roaches.

3E: This is one of those puzzles that you give up on, go to bed, and then 2 hours later, you sit up and go: oh yeah! that's how you do it. The trapdoor maze is well planned and took some thinking about as well. My only complaint is that you can't go back to the other rooms once you finally leave.

1N3E: The only problem with this room is cleaning up the brain matter. Its not even difficult to get rid of the snakes if you've done a room or two like this before. This is a poster room for the "kill all xxx monster totems" suggestion.

1N4E: I was dreading doing this one again, but having done it once, I took an entirely different strategy and got through it a lot more quickly the second time.

and finally:


Level 22:
I went through this level pretty quickly. Nothing stood out as particularly tedious or difficult. I did like the trap door room 1N. I thought there were a few too many trap doors in 1W. And too many brains in 2E. I like levels where you have to go through rooms a couple of times. However, on this level, really you're just splitting the rooms up into separate parts (with the exception of 1W). In effect, you have two small rooms rather than one room which must be figured out differently from different entrances.


[Edited by stigant at Local Time:02-13-2005 at 08:47 PM]

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Ok, level 23 went pretty quickly as well:
2N: I'm not sure what you were going for here, but

1N: Not bad, not great. Pretty straightforward.

Entrance: I thought this was going to take a lot longer. But, thankfully, once you get past the first group, its pretty simple to get up to the queens. This is probably just right. You have to be efficient and careful, but you don't have to work for long periods of time just to move one square closer.

2N1E: This one was a lot simpler than I think you meant for it to be.
1N1E: I enjoyed going through this room. Its kind of whimsical. Its not very difficult though, once you get the strategy down since you don't have to move the goblin around any vertical walls.

1E: Probably my favorite room on this level. Great manipulation puzzle. There's so many things you have to keep track of - make sure the mimic doesn't get trapped, make sure tar babies don't go down the wrong path, look out for the tar spawning. And it has a nice red herring . While I'm glad that you didn't put a red door in, I think I still would have been able to solve it. It just would have been more tedious at the end.

1S1E: A good variation on the goblin/snake theme since you have to find ways to isolate goblins without killing them. I was thinking that it might be interesting if you had to keep the goblins off of force arrows which would trap them otherwise. And then, maybe throw in some force arrows which would NOT trap the goblins, but be useful for isolating purposes. But its fine the way it is.

1S2E: I've seen so many rooms like this, that its almost a reflex. Putting some brains in here might make it more interesting. Right now, you just have to WIth a brain, that first part would be a lot more difficult.

2E: Very tricky. I wasn't sure if I was required to come in the SE entrance instead. I'm not sure if I could duplicate my solution either. Snakes are so random. But it IS solvable with some trial and error.

1N2E: Pretty simple once you figure out where to stand, but there are some subtleties to this room that you don't normally see in a room like this.

1N3E: Another good puzzle. I'm glad you have to use the mimic since the mimic doesn't have to worry about dying, only getting trapped. That takes a lot of the tediousness out of it. Also, you have to think ahead a little bit, but not so far as to be impossible. I think it would be a little more difficult if you had Beethro stand in a different corner since the tar babies would accumulate in a different place rather than in the direction the mimic is already going. (not sure about that, though since you are dropping trap doors all along the way anyway.

1S3E: Pretty simple. You might want to make it so that you have to enter the maze sooner. Otherwise, Once in the maze (I went in before any snakes died), though, there are a couple of places were you can easily create dead ends, and then wait for the snakes to die.

2S3E: This room seemed really out of place. Its not bad, or even tedious. Just not really in the same league as the other rooms on this level.

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Progress Quest Progress

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I would like to say thank you again for all the testing that is being done. I apologize that I wasn't able to do anything this weekend, as my computer was in the repair shop. In fact, I believe the hard drive has to be wiped, so I'd really like it if one of the testers could send me back one of the Anyone-Edit Versions (submersie@hotmail.com).

Also, I noticed that there has been some feedback given by people who are not on the Anyone-Edit list. If you would like an Anyone-Edit version, PM me with your e-mail address and I can give it to you.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

[apologies for double posting]

I would like to request again that one of the testers send me back a copy of their their anyone-edit version of Deep Hold XXV, since my computer has been wiped. It's the weekend nor (for me ) and I would really like to get some more work done on it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3335
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Did you get the hold?

Level 16:
Overall this level seems really easy compared to most of the other ones. I think that even the first level was more difficult than this.

1S - I haven't seen this trick before but it was quite obvious.
2S - The first half of this room is way too repeating. The second part is better but it could be more interesting if you made it a little more difficult.
2S1E - The first part has maybe too many evil eyes. It doesn't make it more tedious but the extra eyes feel a bit unnecessary. I can't say anything about the riddle because I suck at them but it's too easy to solve by trial and error. I suggest at least hiding the doors with tar.
3S1E - The room concept is interesting but the room itself is far too easy. You can place 2 mimic potions and wait until most of the serpents are dead.
4S1E - Another very easy room compared to most of the others in your hold.
4S2E - A fun room for a change. You could make the three rooms completely identical to make it slightly more fun. (The third room has few small differences at the moment.)
3S2E - Insanely boring, repeating and tedious room. Make big changes or remove.
3S3E - I would have enjoyed this room a lot more with a checkpoint around the center because I approached this room by trying to remove all tar which is quite tedious and dying on the SE side isn't very fun. If there's an easier solution that involves rushing to the tar mother, I still would like to have a checkpoint because it's a nice challenge to remove the tar.
4S3E - This room is quite repeating as it involves only simple slashing skills and watching ahead carefully.
4S4E - Let's not play find the exit. Another tar-filled room (which are very uninteresting in my opinion).

Oh, and when I wanted a checkpoint in L8-1S, I meant outside the yellow doors. (Before walking past the first force arrows)

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Okay.

As I mentioned before here, I find not being replied to in a few weeks, even just once to acknowledge that the comments I made are being considered, is quite annoying, and really does make me feel quite like I'm being ignored, since it's not the first time it's happened. It takes me about 20-30 minutes per level to type out an analysis for it, and at the moment, I just feel it's not worth the effort, since I don't even know if you're paying any attention to me or not.

As I've also mentioned recently, I'm also focusing a lot on using JtRH to the point where many other DRODistic things I do are being neglected.

I don't wish to offend you, but if you put the two together, the result is the problem that I've lost interest in testing your hold completely. In order not to be completely discourteous to you, I'm going to analyse one more level for you now. If I don't get any indication from now that my efforts are going to be worth the time invested, then regard this as the last bit of testing I shall do for this hold until its release.



As mentioned before, if I get no indication that it is worth my time to test any further and give you any analyses, then regard this as my final report for you.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-02-2005 at 07:11 PM]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I sent out the next version about a week ago...didn't you receive it?

Of course everything is being considered, and everything is also valued well.

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk at Local Time:03-02-2005 at 07:20 PM]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3335
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

I've not received any new versions.
Can I get it to my older e-mail address? I'm having problems with gmail. (henri_ff@hotmail.com)

Edit: My current address is fine too.

[Edited by Doom at Local Time:03-04-2005 at 04:52 AM]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Of course everything is being considered, and everything is also valued well.

But that's the point. You can say that, but how do I know whether you mean it or not?

Until I can see the comments translated into changes or a discussion of what you think about them, then I can't assume anything other than the fact that I'm being ignored.

It's not enough to say, "of course everything is valued well". Even if you want to discard every comment I've made, then you should say so, with reasoning and reference to what I said, so that at least I know you've taken it into some consideration. If you don't say anything, then it's basically just ignoring my comments.

I never received anything either, so maybe you should send me another copy.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-02-2005 at 08:21 PM]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Okay, I'll send it out again tomorrow.

Actually, I have included almost all the changes given by all of the testers, except where they contradict each other.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

urban
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 29
Registered: 11-17-2003
IP: Logged

can anyone tell me how to solve the entrance of level 24???
is it possible???

Thanks

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

urban wrote:
can anyone tell me how to solve the entrance of level 24???
is it possible???

Thanks

It's pretty simple:



____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

urban
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 29
Registered: 11-17-2003
IP: Logged

File: entrance.JPG (84 KB)
Downloaded 99 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

i still don't know how to do it....


another clue please

Thanks

Atch
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 81
Registered: 08-29-2003
IP: Logged

File: Entrance Level 24, Deep Hold.jpg (88.6 KB)
Downloaded 104 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I lost all my holds the other week, I had inadvertently opened DROD twice, and so downloaded the latest version of Deep Hold again (XXIV, The Reckoning) only to find that the Entrance to Level 24 had changed. I originally had the version that you show urban and I couldn’t clear the room either – I maintain that it is in fact impossible. I have attached a screenshot of the new version – it is an easy room now, if you go the right way.

HopelessAmateur
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 177
Registered: 11-05-2004
IP: Logged

I am using the latest version (just started).

Cleared Level 3 1N3W and VERY frustrated. Unfortunately not cleared as final room. Cannot now get back into the rest of the level as follows:

1N2W
Entering from NW corner, blocked by red door.

2W
Entering from NW corner, blocked by red door.

Got to redo three rooms...

---
Level 5 1S1E
There are 18 mimics in here. To complete the room you need 2.
Also, the top door on the W wall is blocked by tar in 1S2E.

Level 5 2N2E
Top door on the E wall is blocked by tar in 2N3E.

Level 5 1N
Right Door on N wall (where yellow door collapses) is blocked by tar in 2N


[Edited by HopelessAmateur at Local Time:03-16-2005 at 04:17 PM]

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I'm working on the next update right now.....

Does anyone have an idea for how I could get back the text on the scrolls?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5199
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I'm working on the next update right now.....

Does anyone have an idea for how I could get back the text on the scrolls?

If I understand correctly, the problem is that you no longer have the player profile you used to author the last version of the hold, right? (If not, ignore this.) If you have an older hold version with the text on the scrolls, the next AE patch (coming sometime soon...but no promises for this week or anything) will work correctly to allow you to make a copy of the hold with the scroll texts properly copied.

A current workaround is to (1) make a copy of this last hold, (2) export the copy, (3) delete both the orginal and the copy from the game, (4) import the exported copy. Make sure you do the steps in precisely this order. It should still have the scroll text intact, and the hold should now have your latest player profile marked as the hold author.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Atch
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 81
Registered: 08-29-2003
IP: Logged

File: Deep Hold L22, 1N.jpg (126.3 KB)
Downloaded 96 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

After almost exactly a year I have returned to Deep Hold downloading Deep Hold XXIV: The Reckoning – the version available at the beginning of March. When left last year it was impossible to complete Level 21 due to an inaccessible brain in 2S, 1E, which also blocked access to 2S, 2E, so this is the level I restarted on. Levels 1 to 20 could all be completed when I did them but I read that you intend revamping some of the middle levels Hawk so any changes will need to be retested.

Stigant’s analyses of levels 21 to 23, above, are brilliant and I can only add a few notes:

Level 21

2S, 1E

stigant wrote:
…2S1E: The room never looked impossible to me (contrary to what the scroll said). It took forever to beat it and when I did, I stood up and celebrated. It’s quite tedious and you have to be careful the whole way. I don't think you can make your point any better, but you can reduce some of the tediousness by adding some checkpoints. I don't think it really matters where, but scattering about 6-8 of them around the room would help a lot…

Yes, I couldn’t agree more about the checkpoints. I’ll admit to having played rather carelessly and lost count of the restarts required – nevertheless I very much enjoyed the room.

2S, 2E: Great red herring – nice one Hawk!

Level 22

stigant wrote:
Level 22:
I went through this level pretty quickly. Nothing stood out as particularly tedious or difficult. I did like the trap door room 1N…

Well I am stuck on this level and just cannot get through 1N. I must have a blind spot for this type of room for I was also stymied by the entrance to Wesley’s I Ching Contest entry (#3), which was possibly the inspiration for this room.

At the position of the attached screenshot, Beethro had just made fifteen moves to the mimic’s one, which can’t be right. Could someone please put me out of my misery, tell me where (and when?) to place the mimic – the southern platform looks unlikely but then what do I know – and give me the first twenty moves or so or any critical points?

Level 23

stigant wrote:
1E: Probably my favorite room on this level. Great manipulation puzzle. There's so many things you have to keep track of - make sure the mimic doesn't get trapped, make sure tar babies don't go down the wrong path, look out for the tar spawning. And it has a nice red herring

Click here to view the secret text

×having to use the mimic to kill the middle snake instead of a tar baby

. While I'm glad that you didn't put a red door in, I think I still would have been able to solve it. It just would have been more tedious at the end.

Two rooms stood out on this level for me starting with 1E. Stigants’s method is better that the one I used, it being so much quicker.

1N, 3E was another favourite – a variation on urban’s 2N in The steps perhaps?

Level 24

vAmpir wrote(in Nov 2004):
I just finished played the whole hold and I may say that I enjoyed it. Just one bug: It is not possible to finish L24.

Click here to view the secret text

×There is no way to kill the brain in exit room 1S, 1E.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Yes, I know about that, and it has been fixed for the next version.

It needs fixing again Hawk. Perhaps you lost it when you had that trouble with your hard drive – one mimic among all those Invisibility Potions would do to get the brain.

This level was largely straightforward and a bit disappointing after 21 and 23. I found 1E the most challenging and enjoyable room and 2N, 1E another worthy of mention.

Overall an awful lot of work has been put into this hold and I for one shall definitely be replaying the completed version – I only hope that it isn’t overshadowed by the release of JtRH.

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Well I am stuck on this level and just cannot get through 1N. I must have a blind spot for this type of room for I was also stymied by the entrance to Wesley’s I Ching Contest entry (#3), which was possibly the inspiration for this room.

At the position of the attached screenshot, Beethro had just made fifteen moves to the mimic’s one, which can’t be right. Could someone please put me out of my misery, tell me where (and when?) to place the mimic – the southern platform looks unlikely but then what do I know – and give me the first twenty moves or so or any critical points?

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

Atch
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 81
Registered: 08-29-2003
IP: Logged

Many thanks for that stigant, I have now managed to do the room at long last! You indicated the start platform correctly but there was also a trick to it:

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Well, Deep Hold has been undergoing testing for several months now, and there have been large amounts of feedback, by post, PM, and e-mail. Overall, I feel that the hold has greatly increased in quality. While I am sure that there is plenty more that could be done, I feel that it's time to release it into the Holds section, hopefully gaining more feedback that could be used to tweak individual rooms in the future if necessary.

I feel that the release of JtRH has overshadowed the testing of the hold, and the eventual playing of the completed hold, which will likely be played exclusively in JtRH. It may not have as much attention now as it might have several months ago, but I feel this is the best time to release it, and I also want to start work on my next hold. I feel that it would do good to have Deep Hold on the list in front of the JtRH holds that will surely come, and I will upload it as soon as the uploading page is fixed.

I would like to thank all the people who have played my hold and given feedback, and especially the testers: Agaricus5, Doom, gamer_extreme_101, jdyer, Stefan, Stuwy, and vAmpir.

I would also like to thank Erik and the development team for bringing out JtRH.

Goodbye, Deep Testing. I'll miss you. -*sniff*-

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

HopelessAmateur
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 177
Registered: 11-05-2004
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I'm working on the next update right now.....

Does anyone have an idea for how I could get back the text on the scrolls?

The scrolls have text on?

HopelessAmateur
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 177
Registered: 11-05-2004
IP: Logged

Level 15 4E - I have the same problem eytanz was having i.e. no way whatsoever to reach the potion before the counter reaches 0. I wonder if luck in terms of goblin placement makes a difference. Just out of interest, how many times did you personally playtest that room?
Anyway it forced me to give up on the level and skip to 16. NB it will force people playing the 'released' version to give up.


Level 16 1S is impossible, right? - the snake in the top left hand corner has only one space between head and tail, there is no way to get roaches into that area, there are no wraithwings, there are no mimic potions.

Holds with impossible rooms in (already in the Holds section) annoy me because in my holds list I like to see completed ones. Those which are incomplete because of my incompetence are one thing, those which are incomplete because of serious design faults mean I note the designer and avoid their other holds...

I have to say that Deep Hold XXV has some superb stuff in it. Sort out the tweaks, reduce the mindless tedium, and I'll playtest it for you again from the beginning, if it's going to make a positive difference.

[Edited by HopelessAmateur at Local Time:04-07-2005 at 03:07 PM]

[Edited by HopelessAmateur at Local Time:04-07-2005 at 03:08 PM]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

HopelessAmateur wrote:
Level 16 1S is impossible, right? - the snake in the top left hand corner has only one space between head and tail, there is no way to get roaches into that area, there are no wraithwings, there are no mimic potions.

Nope. It's possible, but quite a cheap trick. You need to leave the room and then re-enter it from a different direction.



____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

15:4E is possible. I just defeated it three times in a row.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

[apologies for double posting]

I'm sorry that the Holds board is down, and it has recently been pointed out to me that there is no longer any download of Deep Hold. If anybody else would like a copy, and really cant wait, then PM me with your e-mail address and I can send you the final version.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....