Announcement: Why not try our official idea generator for inspiration when making puzzles?


Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Anti-Mimic (How????)
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Insane
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 154
Registered: 08-06-2005
IP: Logged
icon Anti-Mimic (0)  
How can you make an "Anti-Mimic"?
you know, the mimic that does everything the other way around.

-Insane
11-29-2005 at 05:20 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
The only behaviour of that I have seen was "out-of-synch" mimics, who/which (*) had a different sword position than Beethro. I have yet to see mimics react to Beethro's moves by doing everything the other way around.

These mimics can be created thanks to scripts, either with a fixed sword orientation (a *lot* faster), or a sword orientation dependent on Beethro's own (that requires a good deal of scripting). They are then turned into regular "monsters", and behave like ordinary mimics; only their initial sword orientation was set to be unlike Beethro's.

A good example of these mimics can be found in Beethro Goes Fourth by Oneiromancer, and you will have access to the scripts once you complete the hold (unlike the official holds that also feature odd mimics).
11-29-2005 at 05:41 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2934
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
It technically could be possible to do an "Anti-Mimic" if one was able to both detect relational movement by Beethro (i.e. detect if he moves a specific direction, not to a specific square) as well as relational rotation by Beethro (wait for him to face clockwise or counter-clockwise instead of a specific direction). Actually, I think you can do the latter, but not the former. And then the "anti-mimic" itself would have to be able to move relationally instead of to a specific square; we already have the ability to rotate clockwise or counter-clockwise.

Basically it would be a lot of work to add in the programming for the scripting to get this done, so it's unlikely that it would be added to 2.0, and I don't know if there are any plans for it for 3.0. If you want it added, you should make a feature request on the appropriate board.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
11-29-2005 at 05:48 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
I wonder what Rabscuttle did in "The Wrong Way" hold...

EDIT: I think I see it now. That's some insanely clever scripting!

[Last edited by Doom at 11-29-2005 05:54 PM]
11-29-2005 at 05:52 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Stefan
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2119
Registered: 05-25-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
You should look at the scripting in the The Wrong Way contest hold, here:
http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=8270&page=1
The mimics in the central rooms in "Parting of the Ways" do just what you're looking for (I think).

____________________________
0.099
11-29-2005 at 05:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Insane
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 154
Registered: 08-06-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
I've tried the
Label "main"
Wait 1 turn(s)
If ... Goto "CW":
Wait for player to turn counterclockwise
Goto "main"
Label "CW"
Face direction clockwise
Goto "main"

and it appears that it just ignores every second move (the diagonal ending ones)

so:
B- M- goes to B M- and then B M
               \\            |  \\


And i've seen it in the "The Other Way" contest in the first and second room.

-Insane
11-29-2005 at 05:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3189
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
This is what works for motionless mimic:

Face direction X
Label "Loop"
If...go to "CW":
Wait for player to face clockwise
If...go to "CCW":
Wait for player to face c-clockwise
Wait 1 turn
Go to "Loop"

Label "CW"
Face direction clockwise
Go to "Loop"

Label "CCW"
Face direction c-clockwise
Go to "Loop"


If you want to script moving mimics, you'd better wait for relative movement to be implemented. Or use real mimics. The Wrong Way uses apparently Wubba positions to define when the mimic is allowed to move. Not very beginner-friendly, I think :)
11-29-2005 at 06:10 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2934
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
I think it might be possible to do an Anti-Mimic by checking for the specific squares Beethro moves to. It would be disgustingly complicated in a large area, though. It might be manageable in a small area...5x5 at most, perhaps. You'd have to be able to account for every possibility.

Actually, the biggest problem with an anti-mimic is that the movement order for characters isn't the same as for actual mimics. The mimic will always move before the monsters...a character usually moves after the monsters, especially if it's waiting for a cue to perform its action. So a scripted anti-mimic would be a novelty, but it would be difficult to completely predict its actions. Best to ask for a real anti-mimic in the FR board. :)

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
11-29-2005 at 06:16 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 4939
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (+1)  
Insane wrote:
I've tried the
Label "main"
Wait 1 turn(s)
If ... Goto "CW":
Wait for player to turn counterclockwise
Goto "main"
Label "CW"
Face direction clockwise
Goto "main"

and it appears that it just ignores every second move (the diagonal ending ones)

so:
B- M- goes to B M- and then B M
               \\            |  \\
Place the Wait 1 at the end of the loop, so it only takes place if none of the cases have occured.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
11-29-2005 at 08:22 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (0)  
Wait, those wubbas are how that mimic works? That's freaking /awesome/.
11-29-2005 at 09:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (+2)  
:D

The Wrong Way hold is editable by You (me) and Masters, if memory serves. I'll upload an anyone-editable reverse mimic room in a day or two

This is a broad overview of how I scripted the reverse-mimics.

note: in the following "Wubbas" mean "Wubba characters"

The Wubbas are used to determine where the mimic should go. Each are on their own 2x2 set of squares (as that makes it possible to always go where they have to.)

One wubba watches for sword swinging. He moves to a different square depending on whether the sword is swung clockwise, counter-clockwise, or not at all.

There are four Wubbas that watch Beethros movements - two on the rows and two on the columns. The room is divided up into three sets of rows and three sets of columns. The row-watchers move to one square if Beethro moves to row 1, 4, 7, 10.. a second square if Beethro moves to row 2, 5, 8.. and a third square if Beethro moves to row 3, 6, 9... The column-watchers work similarly.

Now I've said there are two Wubbas each for rows and columns. If we place another wubba so that it moves between the two sets, then it will be able to see Beethro's (relative) position on this turn and the previous turn. A wubba looking at the row-wubbas can see if Beethro moved north or south, and a wubba looking at the column-wubbas can see if Beethro moved east or west.
(Cutting and pasting is good for getting those pesky characters placed in the right order)

There are three Wubbas that watch the N-S and E-W Wubbas and provide simple tests for movement in the 8 directions.

By watching these guys, and the sword-wubba, scripting the actual mimic character becomes fairly simple - although a little tedious because of the lack of relative movement. You have to have cases for every square the mimic can be as well as every direction. That's mostly why I made the mimic's area small and diagonal ;)

I wouldn't recommend using reverse mimics to do anything more strenuous than interacting with orbs, bombs and fuses, as you require extra scripting to test if the mimic is blocked by monsters (plus character movement happens after monster movement), and even trapdoors may cause some odd behaviour (or would they? hmmm...)

(And if you're counting at home, you'll note that there are two extra wubbas - they're just there for symmetry.)

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 12-05-2005 04:43 AM : rephrasing]
12-05-2005 at 01:17 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1306
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (+1)  
I might add that the sword-swinging Wubba is unnessecary due to the mimic's ability to check for that. In any case, however. I congratulate you. Excellent work.
12-06-2005 at 02:10 AM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

File: Reverse Mimic.hold (17.4 KB)
Downloaded 36 times.
License: Public Domain
icon Re: Anti-Mimic (+1)  
Heh, that is simpler. :)

Attached is an anyone editable hold with one of the reverse mimic rooms in it. I've changed the Wubbas to different characters and added some descriptive notes to (hopefully) make it easier to see what's happening.
12-06-2005 at 03:23 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Anti-Mimic (How????)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.