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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (0)  
Double and triple-taking here. My credibility has been shot to pieces.

Yeah, Stuart's a goner.

-Erik

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11-02-2005 at 08:25 PM
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Alneyan
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Shot to pieces eh? Next time, perhaps you will see why Danforth Strout so badly wanted to sell you that IFF system. It really had nothing to do with bonuses or anything like that: all he cared about was your welfare. He did, really.

Fitting that StuartK would come back from the dead on November 2 (it's the day of the dead, in France and in other countries, if memory serves).

I must have a pretty twisted sense of humour, but this thread has almost had me burst out laughing (and that's some of the highest praise I can give in the humour department). I just love Kevin's latest post. Still, I guess I ought to hug Erik, to make up having fun at his expense.

[Last edited by Alneyan at 11-02-2005 09:22 PM]
11-02-2005 at 08:41 PM
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Kevin
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I still don't see how StuartK got squeezened. According to the new rules, the sand tiles shown in the cycle 12 hold are removed at the end of cycle 12. It's important to note that the cycle 12 hold is the hold that shows cycle 11 movements. This is the same as once north in the current hold (the cycle 13 hold). Look at once north of the cycle 13 hold. This is what was shown in the cycle 12 hold. The sand tiles shown here are removed at the end of cycle 12. At the end of cycle 12, StuartK is at (17, 20), which is not a sand tile. This means that he should not get squeezened.

I'm aware that this is inconsistent with the previous cycles. This is because the rules were changed before the most recent cycle. Since the sand tiles weren't adjusted when the rules changed, this had the effect of delaying squeezening by one cycle.

Also, I don't think that Alneyan's first move should have been blocked. The pits next to the sand tiles in the cycle 13 hold didn't become pits until the end of cycle 12. This means that the cycle 12 movements can go over the squares that appear as pits in the cycle 13 hold. The cycle 13 hold should show Alneyan moving southwest once, onto what appears to be a pit (but isn't really a pit until the end of cycle 12). Then Alneyan should stand still for 3 turns, and then move northwest.

I know it seems unintuitive to see a mimic moving over a pit. It might have been better if the hold represented the new pit squares with something else, such as sand tiles. I think this is how it worked originally, before the rule change, so I'm not really sure why the rules were changed. What matters is that the rules did change, and according to the new rules, I'm pretty sure that StuartK is still alive, and that Alneyan's first move was not blocked.
11-02-2005 at 09:05 PM
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eytanz
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No, you are wrong. The rules *never* changed. All that changed is how Erik described them, and how confused he was about them. He has been implementing them consistently from the beginning.

Furthermore, Erik's reply to you above is in error. When he says:

quote:

The sand tiles shown in the cycle 11 hold will be removed after the 5th turn of cycle 11, and that removal will first be visible in the cycle 12 hold. So the first way you expressed the rules ("at the end of cycle 11, the sand tiles shown in the cycle 11 hold will be removed") is correct.



He actually meant:

quote:

The sand tiles shown in the cycle 11 hold will be removed after the 5th turn of cycle 10, and that removal will first be visible in the cycle 12 hold. So the first way you expressed the rules ("at the end of cycle 11, the sand tiles shown in the cycle 11 hold will be removed") is incorrect.



My amended response is the way things actually happened between the cycle 11-12 holds (i.e. the holds showing the cycle 10-11 moves).

I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided if the labelling of the holds corresponded to the turn that they show, rather than to the next turn.

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11-02-2005 at 09:21 PM
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ErikH2000
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File: Smite to the Death - Cycle 14.hold (18.5 KB)
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (0)  
I won't announce it just quite yet, but it looks like that was the last cycle. Yellow Mage gets squeezened at end of this cycle, leaving Kevin and Alneyan stranded.

I apologize again for my terrible explanations and reexplanations of the squeezening. I think Yellow Mage might have gotten confused along with me and messed up here. Or maybe he wanted to go out now. >>shrug<<

I'm going to let you guys digest this, cry foul if you need to, and Wallu can do the honors of posting final standings.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 11-04-2005 02:22 AM]
11-04-2005 at 01:33 AM
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StuartK
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Barring one tiny error, in getting Alneyan and Yellow Mage mixed up, it looks like you're correct :D

As far as Alneyan, in his place as kingmaker, falling to his ignoble death, I strongly suspect it was either intentional, or simply destined to happen :P
11-04-2005 at 01:53 AM
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ErikH2000
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Man, and I thought maybe I could stop making errors. I guess not. Yeah, I mean Alneyan tipped over the edge--not Yellow Mage.

-Erik

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11-04-2005 at 02:00 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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I'm not squeezned. Alneyan is. I didn't expect Alneyan to do that, but I should of expected that. Both me and Kevin are stranded. Well >>CENSORED<<. I didn't see that defensive play coming.

Can you put us, me and Kevin, in a pit and do a final deathmatch cos I'd really like that... and can Matt be in it cos I really wanted to duel him?

Pretty please? :D

Slow typer alert.

One last thing, I should be facing South instead of South West at the end/beginning of cycle 12/13.

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[Last edited by Schik at 11-04-2005 03:53 AM : tidying up for the kiddies.]
11-04-2005 at 02:01 AM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
Yellow_Mage wrote:
I'm not squeezned. Alneyan is. I didn't expect Alneyan to do that, but I should of expected that. Both me and Kevin are stranded. Well >>CENSORED<<. I didn't see that defensive play coming.

Yeah, it all ends with a whimper. :~(
quote:

Can you put us, me and Kevin, in a pit and do a final deathmatch cos I'd really like that... and can Matt be in it cos I really wanted to duel him?

You monkeys can start a fight club or aerobic kicksmiting tournament or whatever you want, but I'm running a clean operation here. No last minute rule changes. Well, not too many at least. :)
quote:
One last thing, I should be facing South instead of South West at the end/beginning of cycle 12/13.
Fixed, thanks. I reattached up above with a new hold.

-Erik

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[Last edited by Schik at 11-04-2005 03:53 AM : tidying up for the kiddies.]
11-04-2005 at 02:28 AM
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Mattcrampy
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quote:
Yellow_Mage wrote:
can Matt be in it cos I really wanted to duel him?

Pretty please? :D



Bwahahahaha - heck, if you want a duel, I'm sure we can set something up after the game.

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11-04-2005 at 02:44 AM
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Yellow_Mage
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File: Smite to the Death - The Complete Battle.hold (66.4 KB)
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (+7)  
Heheh. Ok.

Complete Hold done. No errors that I can see, and I tried to recreate the squeezening using spiders but it got seriously tedious, so I gave up (someone else can do it if they really want to, but the aesthetics weren't great). You can get angry about the storeroom, Erik, but I blame Robin. It was like that when I got there. O:-

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11-04-2005 at 03:08 AM
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ErikH2000
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Wow, that is so cool to see all at one time.

Why is it that even when I clearly mark the storage room to be left alone, people gotta come in and screw with it?

-Erik

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11-04-2005 at 03:22 AM
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Doom
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Over already? Huh... I will still post my version of the hold a little later. I don't think it will be exactly the same. (although I've not looked at this yet)
PS. I screwed with the storage room too. It was the first thing I did to the hold :P

[Last edited by Doom at 11-04-2005 05:11 AM]
11-04-2005 at 05:03 AM
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Alneyan
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Oops, I screwed up again. My four last commands out of five ended up with a mistake, each time different... can anyone beat that? (I ran into a wall I had previously not noticed, I used the novel Z key, I stubbornly moved in diagonals when I was already against a wall, and now I squeezened myself out of existence)

So, sorry Yellow Mage, I was trying to fight either of you (actually, I was heading for Kevin, but he declined to fight it seems), but... well, it didn't work. I think you are stranded regardless of my own suicide, though.
11-04-2005 at 07:10 AM
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robin
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quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Wow, that is so cool to see all at one time.

Why is it that even when I clearly mark the storage room to be left alone, people gotta come in and screw with it?

-Erik


I tried to put things back in place,
but you see... it's like this... euhr...
I lost it :blush

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11-04-2005 at 11:27 AM
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ErikH2000
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Well said, Wallu. Well said!

-Erik

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11-04-2005 at 05:51 PM
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Doom
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File: Smite to the Death - Complete.hold (31.1 KB)
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (+2)  
Because I wasn't the first to post the complete hold, I just had to make it stand out in some other way.

1. Player numbers appearing at the beginning of every cycle

2.
quote:
Yellow_Mage wrote:
I tried to recreate the squeezening using spiders but it got seriously tedious, so I gave up
Guess what...
Click here to view the secret text

I didn't see any mistakes in the hold, but in something as big as this, it's very possible that I might have missed something.

(By the way, there's one mistake I noticed in Yellow_Mage's hold. #15 (Yellow_Mage :P) is facing the wrong direction at the beginning of cycle 13.)

Download it here!

[Last edited by Doom at 11-04-2005 06:21 PM]
11-04-2005 at 05:57 PM
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Yellow_Mage
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Very nice! I wouldn't of tried putting label updates every cycle since I'd of thought lots of people would of just held down "wait" and watch Kevin spin around for a bit.

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quote:
(By the way, there's one mistake I noticed in Yellow_Mage's hold. #15 (Yellow_Mage ) is facing the wrong direction at the beginning of cycle 13.)


Huh... uhh... ahh... wha...? :huh

Oh, ya... Well, I copied Eriks releases and those ones might.. ya know... have mistakes in them.... :P

Well, I honestly got ta say this was a good competition that got weird at the end.

My partial analysis about the whole thang:

Well I wanted to say this about 2 pages back, but now I have time to say a few things about it now.

How handicapping currently works; it would of been alright if they were far less people than 56, so basically it was a "first come first served" sorta thing. As #56 Kevin won, bidding for kills and the whole handicap from that doesn't quite work. My thinking that anyone bidding more than 2 wouldn't win (I wanted to bid 1, but I didn't want to be too low in the move priority list).

Move priority is only important right at the start of the game. Put yourself in a low priority for example, there would be more people than you that have a higher priority than you. As more people are killed, your chances of winning improve. If you are high on the priority list, it's more likely that it you would have the same chance of winning, or your chance of winning will decrease (becaue of the handicap, less people, and the assumption that people with lower priority will be killed first). The example would be that I would be 3rd to move out of the other 5 people (Matt and Kevin). Me being 15 out of 56 doesn't translate as well anymore.

The advantage of being first to move are only slight with them being a crossed swords situation, for a guaranteed kill, or a sword near your rear situation, which can be avoided (each at the end of the 5 turn). The possible advantages regards strategy, and that being contradictory. You can play a better defensive game if you have a higher priority, but because you probably made a higher bid, you would have to get more kills, and you can't really play that way.

The advantages of being low on movement priority are slight, but are good. On agressive attacks you tend to bump swords rather than get splattered as you would be on a higher priority, and if you know where people are going, you can kill you opponent in a situation that would make them bump your sword if you had high priority (eg. when a few people started to swing their swords to prevent people from coming in from the initial squeezening, people with a lower priority could of sweetly moved passed the deadly sword and killed them. Heh.)

Contrary to the "wait it out" style that could of been done with people with low priotity (since you'd be closer to zero than most other people :P), being agressive would allow you to get a score that is possibly unbeatable, and you don't have the defenseive advantage of a higher movement priority.

A few relevant comments (because I'm getting too long):
- Higher movement priority is overrated. The advantage is only slight, and is depend on the person strategy.
- If there were between 18-24 people me thinks the current bidding situation would of been ok.
- People who over bid might of broke the game. Them might get the kills, but they wouldn't be competition against anyone else, taking the opportunity of kills instead of being in a position to win. (I'm not taking that like hard cheese or anything :))

I'll talk more on this a later (and more match specific), but what do you guys think?


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11-04-2005 at 08:11 PM
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StuartK
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A number of factors went into how a game played out for an individual

- luck (IMO the biggest factor) Especially poor luck, most (all?) of the people with opinions here are the ones who survived the first rounds - it can't have been much fun for the individual who dies early on - for that reason I'd prefer at some point we relegate last man standing rules, but instead use a number of respawn points e.g. boxes with multiple arrow exits, to discourage camping.

- original positioning. I think the players in the central area had more opportunities to use up their luck (or exercise their skill) since they all had to defend from multiple directions. More tunnels to even out the map? A clear central arena, which everyone eventally moves towards?

- movement order. Should all players with similar movement order start near each other, or should it be randomised, or follow a different pattern? Should movement order be static, or follow a different pattern? e.g. making a kill moves you to the bottom of the list. Another option here - a kill could move a person down the list by 10 (or some number) & a death move them up by the same amount, if respawning were implemented.

- shape of map, hence number of enemies encountered or accessible at a time.

- direction enemies are coming from (multiple directions means you can't face all of them at the same time, your flank is exposed - and luck plays a bigger factor in your survival)

- skill - how carefully do you move, how aggressive/defensive, how well do you leverage your advantages, and adapt your strategy based on local environment? etc etc etc. The number of moves per cycle play a part here, just a few would lead to stalemates, more provide ever increasing amounts of luck vs skill. Of course the luck plays a large factor in how quickly the game is over.
11-04-2005 at 11:13 PM
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ErikH2000
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Wow, quite a lot of rookies in this one...

Alneyan
Andy101
Crazy Ivan
DelverDom
KevG
md5i
Muiff
NekoIncardine
RubellaGolda
Schik
Someone Else
StephenForLouise
StuartK
Svante
The Spitemaster
VortexSurfer
Yellow_Mage
zaubberer

So these peoples get the +10 rookie bonus. I'm going to wait for the inevitable corrections before awarding rank points.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 11-06-2005 01:09 AM]
11-05-2005 at 03:02 AM
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KevG
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
A number of factors went into how a game played out for an individual

- luck
- original positioning
- movement order
Luck of the draw definitely played a major part in the results. For instance, if I had checked the forum five hours earlier the evening the contest was announced, I would have been #32 instead of #40. Since my approach to the bomb wouldn't have blocked VortexSurfer like RoboBob's did, I would have wound up with 3 kills. Entering 5 hours earlier would have put me on the podium. (Of course, since #40 was closer to a bomb than #32, it should have been the better position.)


11-05-2005 at 02:38 PM
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eytanz
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I think that the bombs were a mistake. They really contributed to making an uneven field and they added very little in return.

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11-05-2005 at 03:42 PM
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StuartK
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quote:
eytanz wrote:
I think that the bombs were a mistake. They really contributed to making an uneven field and they added very little in return.

It's a shame the game was so time limited - many decisions seemed based around making sure the game didn't last too long, hence being a bigger tradeoff of skill vs luck. Later in the game, options for strategy were limited due to the squeezening, though my opinion may be biased there... :)

I think the only way this game would be feasible in the long term would be with an automated system - two days between moves was too long.
11-05-2005 at 04:20 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (+1)  
A slight adaption of Dooms version of the hold, this time with everyones names on the labels. The screen gets rather full at the start, but if you want to watch what someone else was up to throughout the game, it makes it a little more obvious.
11-05-2005 at 04:21 PM
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KevG
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I have mixed feelings on the bombs. While not really in keeping with the flavor of the whole smite to the death thing, the bombs added an opportunity to gamble. I do think the fuses were cheap though; if used again maybe the fuse ends could be embedded into a wall. No one could use a bomb without suiciding.

I figured, worst case scenario, I would get one kill but still wind up in the upper half of the standings. Most likely I would get two kills and have a respectable finish. A miraculous 3 kills would likely put me in the top three finishers. Given how difficult I expected it would be to get kills normally, I figured it was worth a shot. It seems only RoboBob and I made that decision.

I do think they were a good idea for the contest because, let's face it, narrowing the field down to make it easier to update the hold was an important consideration. For future games, I'm not so sure. Until they are gone, players are going to either have to make avoiding bombs their top priority or go for the suicide run. Whether or not that's a bad thing is probably a matter of opinion.
11-05-2005 at 04:22 PM
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eytanz
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The problem with the bombs was that players were positioned very differently relative to them. The starting position relative to a bomb probably made a bigger impact on the early game than anything else.

I think that what might be better is to have *all* the players start out in the external field, and make it bomb/arrow/ortho-square free. Make the middle field have all these goodies in them - by the time players reach them, it will be a matter of strategy, not luck.

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11-05-2005 at 05:04 PM
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eytanz
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By the way, don't let my griping about bombs and stuff make it appear like I think Erik did a bad job. I think this was a very enjoyable game, and that Erik did a remarkably good job running it; all the problems that were in it can be seen from hindsight but were not at all clear when the game started.

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11-05-2005 at 05:07 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
wallu wrote:
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
forrestfire
Korgath
leroy00

So these peoples get the +10 rookie bonus. I'm going to wait for the inevitable corrections before awarding rank points.



I'm not sure if these three can be called participant/rookie because they didn't send any moves.


Thanks for the catch. Yeah, if you didn't submit any commands then I can't mark you down as participating.

Will go revise the list...

-Erik

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11-06-2005 at 12:57 AM
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robin
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I regret I didn't compete. next time I'm in

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[Last edited by robin at 11-06-2005 01:37 AM]
11-06-2005 at 01:34 AM
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Kevin
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 262
Registered: 11-16-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (0)  
I really liked this month's contest. It required a lot of thinking and strategy, although there was also some luck involved, which sometimes had a huge effect. At times, I got pretty lucky. The cycle in which I started right next to Leus's sword just happenned to be the one cycle that he didn't submit any moves. If I hadn't been so incredibly lucky, I wouldn't have won the contest.

I think being earlier in the movement sequence was an advantage, but not enough of an advantage to make it worth the handicap. In many cases, having a lower number didn't really help at the beginning, because of how the starting positions were arranged. For example, players 26-45 all started near players that mostly had a lower number, but players 46-53 started near players that mostly had a higher number. In the beginning of the game, it would have been much better to be #46 than #30, because of the nearby players. Towards the end of the game, it was much more useful to have a low number, because all of the players were in the same area.

I think multiplayer DROD has a lot of potential. I'd really like to see it implemented in a future version of DROD. Having an automated system would really make things easier. No one would have to spend time updating the hold, and an entire game could be played in an hour, instead of a month.
11-06-2005 at 02:41 AM
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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : Smite to the Death - Pre-Update Work (Update hold drafts get posted here first.)
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