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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Monster Movement Order
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larrymurk
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OK, I know it takes a while to learn all these nuances of monster movement. In time I learned that while Beethro always acts first, creatures will will be processed in the order that they were placed on the screen by the hold architect.

This is very much not to my liking (I like all information to be visible such that in theory one could solve any room before making the first move). I would've recommended that the monsters be processed row by row starting at the top-left or something.

That's all water under the bridge because of many thing:
-In most rooms the order doesn't matter
-Old rooms/solutions would be ruined

Anyhow, I just wanted to gripe (and inform others) that we are talking about the placement order of ALL creatures. In other words, silly me thought that Beethro moves, monster type 1 moves in their order, monster 2.. No such luck. We can have Beethro moves, roach 1 moves, snake 1 moves, snake 2 moves, roach 2 moves.

I guess the only "theoretical "fix" to me would be to have tiny numbers starting at 1 labeling all the monsters. Unfortunately, that would probably be messy and impractical.

There could be an option to toggle monster order display on/off. I can tell you that this would be helpful while designing the hold I'm now working on.

[Last edited by larrymurk at 06-27-2005 03:20 PM]
06-20-2005 at 06:37 PM
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StuartK
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Would it be of use to have monsters clickable, so you could see which around them in the local area (maybe just 1-2 squares distant) would move before, or after? This would effectively serve the same purpose as the undo button, except less 'cheaty'.
06-20-2005 at 08:14 PM
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larrymurk
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I would like to see a number for every monster.

This could get out of control as you get into triple digits, but maybe it would do up to 99? Probably up to 9 would solve 99.9% of the important situations.
06-20-2005 at 10:54 PM
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StuartK
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Well I imagined one or two levels of shading, and only in the immediate area to where you click.

The main thing a player will want to know is if this roach or that snake will move first, and it'll only matter if they're right next to each other. If there are 99 monsters you want to tell the movement order for, just try the move and undo if it doesn't work out. I don't see a point in a game mechanism to provide the level of detail you seem to be seeking here - it'd be too much information, most of it not very useful.
06-20-2005 at 11:20 PM
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larrymurk
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I've gotta say I was originally just going to put this in the "GENERAL" forum to gripe a little..

I don't think it's a big problem and the UNDO key does solve a lot of things.

Enough ranting and back to more important things like playing DROD of course!
06-20-2005 at 11:58 PM
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schep
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icon Re: Monster Movement Order (+2)  
I agree that seeing information about monster order by clicking would be nice (for EEs, I guess we would see both the monster order and the line of sight).

And just to clear things up, it's not quite true that all monsters move in placement order.
1. Player moves.
2. Mimics move.
3. Slayer(s) move.
4. Guards move.
5. All other monsters move.
6. Characters act.
7. Other things happen (e.g. to tar/mud, fuses, green/red/black doors).

Placement order makes the difference within numbers 2-6. Yes, Halph is in number 5, but if he appeared on the edge rather than being placed in the editor, he moves relatively late.

06-21-2005 at 12:12 AM
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rowrow
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schep wrote:
6. Characters act.
7. Other things happen (e.g. to tar/mud, fuses, green/red/black doors).
Character goes at the very end so it can detect all the things that happened that turn.

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[Last edited by rowrow at 06-27-2005 03:20 PM]
06-23-2005 at 09:04 AM
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Mattcrampy
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I've got a better idea: have monster order be chaotic. That is, reproducable, keyed to the room's location. Each room would have a seed to a pseudo-random process, so that monster order would appear to be random but would be the same if you make the same moves.

Monster order puzzles aren't just unfair, relying on information not readily available, but they're tedious.

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06-23-2005 at 12:02 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Monster Movement Order (+2)  
Pseudo-chaotic movement is a terrible idea.

Many times an architect will want to place monsters in a certain order - not to force the player to work out what order they are in, but rather so that monsters will interact in the right way for some other purpose.

For example:

You may want a line of roaches to stay in a tight line rather than spreading out (or vice versa). This can be used to make a player hit an orb at an exact time, to prevent the roaches becoming inaccessible.

Or you might want to ensure a line of roach queens won't get any gaps in the middle where roaches can spawn.

Dancing tar babies uses serpent bodies as walls - to get them to work properly you need to position the monsters in the right order so that they dance rather than stepping on each other's toes.

Or consider roaches placed in this order in a 2 width corridor.
*  *
*12*
*3 *
*  *

While Beethro is to the west of them, if he moves south twice, then the roaches form a line. With appropriate doors to only allow two rows out, Beethro's movement can be restricted - he can move North as much as he likes, but if he moves South twice in a row, the roaches form a line. I used this formation in my Golbeno's contest entry #1 (using spiders), but didn't really make use of the "one step back" property.
Adding more roaches can weaken the restriction and allow more steps back.

If monster order cannot determined by the architect, these things are difficult to achieve.

--

As for the original idea (monster movement indicator), I suggested something similar a while ago, specifically - "click a monster and monsters that move before it are highlighted green, monsters that move after it are highlighted red." Although I think I prefer Stuart's suggestion of only showing nearby monsters.

As well as providing more information, I believe there are puzzle possibilites involving movement order, where it is preferable not to have to work out the order by trail and error. TripleM's Golbeno's entry (#6) combined sorting roaches a tar timer. And although mimics aren't technically monsters, my Unfortunate Architect entry had a puzzle based on mimic order.

I don't think this information will encourage architects to create ridiculously complex movement-order problems any more than adding CTRL+Q encourages architects to fill rooms full of roach queens for no good reason.
06-23-2005 at 02:38 PM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Monster Movement Order (+1)  
See, I'm not awfully enamoured with puzzles like that because monsters are still not moving predictably. I wouldn't mind having monsters move in some kind of predictable order, so long as everyone goes into the puzzle knowing how the monsters are going to move at any one time.

Actually, I think I prefer monsters moving with the most northwest monster having precedent. The problem I have with hinging puzzles on monster movement is that it's room specific rules, and players can't use everything they've learnt from previous rooms - you get an undesirable 'everything I know is wrong' moment; while just going from left to right, top to bottom achieves that by giving players a predictable basis on which to guess monster movement and still allows authors a healthy subset of widgets based on how monsters move. (For instance, that 'can't move south twice' widget you've got there would still work.)

Note, as usual, that I'm in no way representative of the views of Caravel, and Mike will probably come in and disagree with me.

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06-24-2005 at 05:30 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Well 'can't move south twice' would still work (but only if you're to the west of it), but LtR,TtB wouldn't allow a 'can't move east twice'. Many things might still be possible, but you'd be more restricted as to where you could place them.

Another objection is that a LtRTtB system would mean that monsters would move in a different order depending on where they are. Admittedly this is not likely to be an issue often, but I personally prefer the consistency of 'monsters move in the same order from turn to turn'.

Lack of predictability would be solved via some kind of order indicator.

Although chasing two goblins along an east-west corridor would look cool under LtRTtB :D

**********
...G......
B-.G......
**********


east, east, east...
06-25-2005 at 12:51 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I think the best way for it to work if one does a LtRTtB (very nice acronym, by the way) is that the movement orders are calculated upon room entry, and then spawns are appended at the end of the stack. Otherwise, as you point out, it'd break more rooms than just those that rely on specific configurations of monsters.

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06-25-2005 at 05:32 PM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: Monster Movement Order (+1)  
I appreciate everyones comments. Of course I still think it's nothing more than an interesting topic since even I feel there's no way the movement order criteria should be changed now that all these holds have been created.

The only "change" I could possibly see is how the information is displayed, like clicking on a monster and somehow trying to display the most relevent information. Many people have mentioned possible options for this, but I'm not sure there is any super solution.
06-25-2005 at 08:04 PM
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trick
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One way to get rid of this problem once and for all could be to generate a movement dependency tree, and then use a longest path algorithm or somesuch. There would still be an initial movement order (which could be handled by LtRTtB), but it would be much less noticable.

Technical mumbo jumbo coming up :fun

Actually, never mind longest path. I think a "lazy" dependency approach with dynamic relabeling/reordering would be better for our purposes (it's maybe not as good, but should be more efficient). Let's see... Here's some roaches (A-G), Beethro (O), Beethros sword (\\), and a bit of wall (#):
*12345678
1
2 BAC
3   DE
4   FG#
5    
6      \\
7       O
Beethro waits. A moves first, then B, etc. A monster moves as soon as it's able to, and dependencies aren't found before they're required (hence "lazy").

A can't move straight away, though. It wants to move to (4,3), but that square is occupied by D. For now, we don't bother about the other possible moves, note that A depends on D, and move on to B. B can move straight away, as (3,3) is free. As it's the first monster that moves, we relabel it as a (lower case indicates a monster has moved):
*12345678
1
2  AC
3  aDE
4   FG#
5    
6      \\
7       O
C depends on E, D depends on G. E depends on G as well, though (as (6,4) is a wall). Obviously both D and E can't both move into the same space, so there's no point in adding E as a dependency of G as well. In stead, we try to add E as a dependency of D. However, A already depends on D, so we add E as a dependency of A (old label) in stead. Nothing else depends on A, so we're good.

Next to move is F, which can move right away (relabeling as b). G is next, and can also move (c). This leads to a chain of new moves: D depended on G, so D moves (d). A depended on D, so A moves (e). E depended on A, however, it can't move to (5,4) as that square is now occupied by d. In stead, E tries its third movement option, (6,3), which is free. Now that E has moved (f), C can move as well (g), and we're done:
*12345678
1
2
3  aegf
4    d#
5    bc
6      \\
7       O
Now, Beethro waits again.
*12345678
1
2
3  AEGF
4    D#
5    BC
6      \\
7       O
A moves first, and can move straight away (a). B too (b). C is blocked by Beetrhos sword at (7,6), and b at (6,6), but (7,5) is free, so it moves there (c). D moves (d), followed by E (e), F (f), and finally G (g). Thanks to the relabeling/reordering, this time there were no dependencies. The result:
*12345678
1
2
3     g
4   ae#f
5     dc
6     b\\
7       O
No holes!

larrymurk wrote:
I appreciate everyones comments. Of course I still think it's nothing more than an interesting topic since even I feel there's no way the movement order criteria should be changed now that all these holds have been created.
Exactly. If something like this was actually implemented (let me just point out here that this is not up to me, at all), it would have the potential to break rooms that rely even slightly on movement order. Monster bumping wouldn't work anymore, either.

- Gerry
06-25-2005 at 09:49 PM
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larrymurk
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Gerry,

That sounds like an awfully neat system. Maybe someone can use it when the develop a DROD-TYPE game!
06-26-2005 at 01:24 AM
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Gorgapor
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hmm.

I actually WAS trying to develop a DROD-inspired game for a while (you guys totally have to play it if i ever finish it), and ran into this problem. I wanted a movement system that had the following properties:

- movement order could be determined entirely from the placement of the monsters, and not be dependent on any sort of information hidden from the user, such as when the architect placed the monster etc.

- the order of movement did not change depending on the rotation of the room, i.e. if you turn the room 90 degrees, it still works exactly the same.

- monsters in a group stayed in a group without creating holes, so an unbroken line of monsters stayed unbroken.

So i worked out a set of rules that was like 2 pages long which had all these properties. Simplified down, it's basically like this:

1. each monster determines which direction it wants to go.

2. all the monsters keep trying to move into their desired square until they've all moved, or determined that their way is blocked for this turn.

3. when a square is contested, monsters moving orthogonally (as opposed to diagonally) have priority. if more than one monster moving orthogonally wants a square, then neither of them gets it.

Of course, putting this in DROD would break everything, so I'm of course not suggesting that. This is just an illustration of a possible solution to the problem. This works much like Trick's dependency tree, but instead of building a tree, uses a more brute force approach of just everything continues to try and move until a deadlock occurs. There was also some stuff in my method about 2nd and third choices but it works just like trick's version so I didn't go into it.
06-27-2005 at 03:20 PM
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larrymurk
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Well, I can mention the game I put on the development board called PUZZLER.

http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=5453&page=0#55875

I believe it is in pretty playable, working form but there didn't seem to be much interest so I haven't pushed it.

It is no DROD (no big sword), but it has different object types that have their own movement phases and objects are processed T-to-B L-to-R for each phase.
06-28-2005 at 06:39 PM
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