The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

I forget, is "Firewall" a level for ST1 or ST2?

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

ST2 wasn't it?

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

I just now looked, and there is a "Firewall" level in ST2; it just takes a little logic and luck, and a little trial and error.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

I noticed recently that niether help page mentioned that faeries turn into dirt when they hit a trap.
minor, but should be fixed.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

I never even knew about the fairies turning into dirt. I guess I haven't gotten far enough yet.

There are other things that the help page seems to miss... I can't quite remember what they are just now. It might be related to the jinx... does the jinx make explosives behave differently and if so does the help say so?

And I wish the help page explained how to use the special Warrior. I managed to figure it out by examining a level that used it, but it involved much trial and error. Even a more descriptive help line at the bottom of the screen when you mouse over the object would be good.

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

I don't think there are any( current) levels that use the Faerie-Trap union to any great effect.

I think the help does mention the thing about explosives.

oh, and:

Even a more descriptive help line at the bottom of the screen when you mouse over the object

I belive this is called a "Tool-Tip".

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

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[Last edited by wonkyth at 09-06-2008 05:39 AM]

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

wonkyth wrote:
I belive this is called a "Tool-Tip".

Yes, it usually is.

I remembered one other thing that was odd. I discovered that you can put Save Disks and Time Freezes in shops, but when you try to buy them, nothing happens. I'm not sure whether that's a bug in the editor or in the game (ie I'm not sure whether they're supposed to be able to be put there), but it's a bug of some kind.

And it couldn't have been insufficient gems, because I replaced one with boots and the other with a key, without adding any gems, and it worked.


Speaking of shops, Player 2 can't use them. (Nothing happens when it walks over the shop.) Is this intentional? (Player 2 cannot talk, either, to control the dog. In fact, when both players are used, neither of them can control the dog.)


Oh, and one more thing about shops. I set my Shop #1 to not allow purchasing multiples. When I got to Shop #2 after clearing out Shop #1, it was empty. Changing Shop #1 to allow purchase of multiples fixed the problem.

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[Last edited by Celtic Minstrel at 09-06-2008 07:57 PM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
I remembered one other thing that was odd. I discovered that you can put Save Disks and Time Freezes in shops, but when you try to buy them, nothing happens.

That nothing happens is intentional. The bug is that you're allowed to put them in the shop.

Speaking of shops, Player 2 can't use them. (Nothing happens when it walks over the shop.) Is this intentional?

Yes. So you don't have to wait for the other player to finish shopping. Given the rarity of both two-player levels and shoppes, I haven't put in additional code to deal with levels that have both (since this means requiring extra keyboard combinations).

I set my Shop #1 to not allow purchasing multiples. When I got to Shop #2 after clearing out Shop #1, it was empty. Changing Shop #1 to allow purchase of multiples fixed the problem.

That would be a bug. Hm, perhaps ST2 needs a final upgrade at some point.


____________________________
= Radiant =

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

Radiant, did you get the PM I sent you?

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
In fact, when both players are used, neither of them can control the dog.

Would this be a bug too?

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
Would this be a bug too?

Yep.


____________________________
= Radiant =

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Bug in ST1:
When you 'save as' a level in the editor, and you try to save it with a name already taken, you'll get a message 'Thas file exists:' (note the 'thas'), but instead of getting the name of the file you're overwriting, you'll get the name of whatever file is selected. Eg, if you're trying to overwrite a level called AA, and you're currently selecting the '..' folder, you'll get the message 'Thas file exists: ..'
This happens in ST2 too but with 'that' instead of 'thas'.

The Architest
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 255
Registered: 05-25-2008
IP: Logged

Will there be Subterra 3?

I love Subterra series so much,so I had to ask that!

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

The Architest wrote:
Will there be Subterra 3?

It is unlikely, unless I happen to come up with some forty new and different game objects. Sorry.

____________________________
= Radiant =

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

Just a little question but, how many pages of objects can you actually have in the game? ST 1 and 2 each had 5 pages of objects, so I was just wondering if you needed to remove so many from ST1 when making 2?

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
Just a little question but, how many pages of objects can you actually have in the game?

Well, theoretically, I can have as many as I want. But from a design point of view, quantity is not the same as quality: adding more different objects does not necessarily make the game better, but it is guaranteed to make it more difficult, and possibly confusing. I feel I'm pushing the limits with the object count on both games as it is.


____________________________
= Radiant =

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

I think I expressed some things I didn't like ST2 on this forum before. Actually, these points could probably apply ST1, as well. Basically, the overuse of some objects, and lack of mechanical identity between the two games. Not that I'm bashing the games — they have a unique feel and I've spent oh so much of my time playing them — but just bringing to light some things I feel that could be improved. Patch suggestions, if you will.

Regarding object overuse: many objects in the two games are just variations on another object. The brown and blue transmuters, in ST1, are very similar, with maybe two or three object transformation differences. Yet, despite the similarities, it feels awkward not having both present in ST2. Likewise, having too many copies of an object feels awkward as well. The wires are very cool in ST2, but they take up what, a full 10 object slots? Another example is that for each monster object, you have 4 choices of it in the editor, those being up, down, left, or right. Is your game code flexible enough so that instead of this, you place the creature in the editor, and the user can specify which direction it will move in?

Regarding mechanical identity: some of the objects in ST2 are more or less the same as those in ST1 (Ice Block and the three Key Blocks for example). Another example are the new teleporters. They seem to be a merger of the teleporters and duplicators from ST1. However, the fundamental difference between them, is that it is very hard to automatically duplicate an object that needs to be pushed, which is an unfortunate loss in functionality. In essence,

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

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[Last edited by Danjen02 at 11-17-2008 07:38 PM]

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

...Finish sentence please?

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
Basically, the overuse of some objects, and lack of mechanical identity between the two games.

This "lack of mechanical identity" is pretty much the point - if I wanted ST2 to be the same as ST1, I would simply have designed another hundred levels or so. ST2 is not ST1, and the fact that several of its objects work differently is deliberate.

Of course, many basic objects like rocks and gems and keys remain intact and function identically - that is the mechanical identity.

I'm afraid I fail to see your point: you imply that both games have too many objects (because you say they're overused) and simultaneously you imply they have too few objects (because you seem to want to combine the four-directions-of-a-monster to make room for more). So what is it?

____________________________
= Radiant =

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

I think what I was trying to say was that it feels like ST2 has fewer objects than ST1 does, because there are more objects devoted to one mechanic. The wires are a very powerful mechanic, for example, but there are 10 object slots devoted to it, which makes an "object-to-mechanic" ratio feel skewed. And regarding the my last post, I think I might have gotten confused between the meaning of unique objects and unique mechanics.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, because I wasn't sure where I was going with that.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

We've got a new release. Some people have mentioned that the game speed behaves erratically on some newer computers. This is mainly because SubTerra was designed to run quickly on what counted for old systems ten years ago. The new version should resolve that problem, and incidentally fixes a few obscure bugs in object behavior that people have pointed out.

http://crystalshard.net/subdown.htm


____________________________
= Radiant =

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Contrary to what the documentation claims, a lit wire does not cause an egg to hatch.

Bigwig
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 25
Registered: 06-16-2009
IP: Logged

File: Player.cfg (1.1 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Radiant wrote:
Both SubTerra 1 and SubTerra 2 can be downloaded here:

http://crystalshard.net/subdown.htm

Both last updated April 5th, 2009. This fixes speed issues that may occur on newer computers in earlier releases.

And, not for the faint of heart, but, http://crystalshard.net/subfame.htm

(images)

Er. player file for hall of fame here.

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[Last edited by Radiant at 06-24-2009 11:25 PM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Bigwig added.


____________________________
= Radiant =

B.J.Earles
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 18
Registered: 04-29-2009
IP: Logged

File: Player.cfg (1.6 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Looks like I need to get in on this hall of fame business. Here is my player file (at least, I'm pretty sure it's my player file).

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[Last edited by B.J.Earles at 06-28-2009 09:26 PM]

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

I was recording a solution for a level (Subterra 2), and I reached the exit... and nothing happened. :/ No "Well done", no "Excellent", not even a "Some players died". (Besides which, there's only one player.)

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

That's odd. Can you reproduce it and send me the level file?

____________________________
= Radiant =

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

I could send you the level it occurred in, if that's what you mean...

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

So, I had an idea today. I was playing through the default levelset of ST2, and when I got to the level Waterfall (by Omelette), I noticed the background just so happened to be of mountains, and I thought it was very appropriate.

What if a level could use a specific background as chosen by the designer? For instance, say I want my level to always show the Eagle nebula for the background - I would just open the level options, and choose that as the default background. For older levels which wouldn't have had the option, they would continue to use the random/cycling behavior they currently have.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

I've thought of that, but as I wasn't churning out many levels, I didn't think that I would be needing such an option.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes