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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Journey to the Fabled Kingdom (A hold like JtRH but with 3.0 thru 5.0 elements added)
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azb
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All awesome suggestions!

Do you have any ideas for any challenges in addition to fixing these rooms, or not right now?
12-10-2024 at 06:38 PM
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azb
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In the latest version I re-patched the last room of level 5, and now none of the things should come up you mention - all the other issues still need fixing though, which I will do right now.
12-10-2024 at 06:39 PM
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azb
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None of the guard stuff is intentional and I fixed it 110% by forcing you to turn back to Beethro to exit the section with a red door that can't be dropped with the guard (because the guard can't drop trapdoors without the power token, which I don't give in that room).
12-10-2024 at 06:52 PM
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azb
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I didn't notice at first you also pointed out Level 8 4S is also breakable the same way as the Level 7 secret room, and so now it's also fixed in my latest upload.
12-10-2024 at 07:05 PM
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azb
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Level 11 will also have two rooms of ways to kill Slayers not shown earlier in the hold, one with bridges and one with briar (referencing levels 10 and 11 of TCB), and also has a secret room that is like JtRH's level 11 secret but doesn't rip off it directly, instead having my own twist of the fuse you need to cut short have multiple branches and not needing to be cut off at only one point like the original room (those who played JtRH's full version know which room I'm talking about)
12-10-2024 at 07:08 PM
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azb
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I also didn't add that this level will be your first encounter with the real First Archivist from the TCB era, and not Arky, beyond the blue door.

He will taunt you the same way he did in TCB, that although you are very good at dealing with Slayers, he has a lot worse in store for you he is brewing up, and that he can create anything at will being the grand master of the Kingdom (or Empire in the original dialogue - same exact concept).
12-11-2024 at 02:33 PM
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averagemoe
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I wanted to give you this. It's sort of a variation on something I was developing for my aforementioned Entry Point style hold. A system for making a 'Neather-like character really versatile.
Click here to view the secret text

With this, you can make your First Archivist boss into a custom element running that as a default script, and have NPCs in the individual rooms do his thinking for him. Just set some coordinates with the "neatherX" and "neatherY" variables, and he'll attempt to pathfind towards that spot. Change the coordinates at any time to make him change his mind. If there's an orb on the tile, he'll strike it when he reaches it. And if the target is on the edge of the room, he'll disappear after he gets there. This way, you can split his various functions across multiple scripts. For instance, you could have one control script for half of the room, and seamlessly pass things on to a different one in the other half.

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[Last edited by averagemoe at 12-12-2024 06:18 AM : Bug fix]
12-11-2024 at 10:45 PM
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azb
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Awesome! This is really neat and elegant!

I won't make you fight him 'Neather style until level 25 as I mentioned, he'll just appear for dialogue in the levels before that, but this obviously very helpful for when the time actually comes.
12-11-2024 at 11:12 PM
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azb
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My ideas for level 12:

* The first couple of rooms introduce tar mothers and how they behave

* The very first room is just a room about having to wait for the tar to grow a couple of times before you can cut it 100%, and you have to with the presence of a black door

* The second room is about growing tar on on-off pressure plates, and introduces your first Tar Technician

* The secret room above the second room is about using mimics to block tar from growing and forming impossible passages

* The secret room after that, back in level 10 (like how the original JtRH level 12 took you back to level 10 for a secret), is that you have to grow tar in a way to prevent a roach from getting trapped in a maze you manipulate it through.

* East of the second room, there is a gate like the Gate of Namedeness from TCB, and the Naming Office to prove your worth to get past the gate is south of the second room

* After you succesfully slay the Slayers in hand-to-hand combat and earn your Empire name, the puzzles past the gate are like the city's section from TCB with the citizens and relay stations everywhere - there will be no builders until level 23.

* After you get past the blue door, the last puzzles of the level will be like Temporal Ruins and Temporal Sanctum from TSS, an introduction to temporal split tokens but nothing too hard

* There is also Arky in one of these rooms, taunting you that not even time travel can help you outwit him

However, I am waiting for a response from one of the Caravel Team members like Schik or mrimer about how I can get the archivist tiles for level 11 first, to make 1st Archivist and Arky look professional in-game and not just like a generic Citizen.

I downloaded the full version of The Second Sky from GOG.com, and its editing priviliges are "Only You", so that's why I ask because I can't just simply copy the tiles from the official hold because I am not allowed to edit it period.

[Last edited by azb at 12-12-2024 01:10 PM : Clarified my reason]
12-12-2024 at 01:08 PM
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averagemoe
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The tiles are included in the TSS custom elements bonus pack. They're just not in the hold. You have to look through it's files.

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12-12-2024 at 07:15 PM
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azb
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Okay, sadly I don't have it cause I got the game from GOG games and not the Caravel site like I specified earlier; I assume to prevent piracy it's intentional that the pack is shipped only to people who buy directly from Caravel?
12-12-2024 at 07:33 PM
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azb
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For level 13's details:

* You will deal with goblins in the very first room, in a puzzle about manipulating them on on-off plates and not killing them right away.

* The north wing will introduce clone potions, with two rooms - one is an intro to clones, and one is about switching between clones quickly to manipulate monsters so they don't get trapped.

* There are no secrets in this level, but there is the entrance to the postmastery area in this level, called the Dreamplane.

* Past the blue door are a couple of puzzles introducing the dagger, one about using it in combat, and one about how you can drop thin ice but not trapdoors using it

* At the end of the level the Goblin King kidnaps Halph for ransom, like the original JtRH level 13

For level 14:

* Most of the level is just re-using tar rooms from earlier in the hold but replacing it with mud instead, just like JtRH level 14

* One of the rooms is about avoiding a bunch of Slayers in an area with a bunch of spinning sentries TCB style, stating their plan to remove all surfacers because of how much of a nuisance you guys are, referencing the Grand Removal from the original TCB

* There is a secret room in this level that is just yet another room that is a ripoff of an earlier room with mud replacing tar

* Past the blue door you get introduced to Temporal Aumtlich, and are accused of causing a disaster you have yet to cause at this point in the story just like in the official TSS hold

* The very last room with stairs leading to level 15 has the Mud Coordinator and Tar Technician arguing about which is better, like the original JtRH level 14

For level 15:

* The first room introduces oremites and the 180 spin trick is required to win it

* The north wing introduces squad horns

* Past the blue door are the Temporal Resonator Crystals and the tuning fork, and after you steal the tuning fork at the end of the level you see firsthand how you did in fact cause the disaster, just like in the original TSS hold

* There is a secret to this level too, and it has no monsters in it either just like the required rooms of this level

* There are stairs leading you back up to rescue Halph in this level, just like in the original JtRH level 15

For level 16:

* The first room introduces rattlesnakes

* The north wing introduces gel and gel mothers, and showcases not only how it cuts differently but also how it grows differently than tar and mud (IE: gel needs to be connected to a mother to grow, unlike the other two substances)

* The south wing introduces shallow water and shows off how it interacts with all the other monsters you've seen so far, including how mirrors and rock golems form stepping stones

* Past the blue door you get introduced to the final in-engine weapon, the caber, and see how it works not only in combat but also how it blocks explosions

* There is a secret room in this level where the Pit Thing taunts you some more by voice acting as other characters you know by now

For level 17:

* The first room introduces seep

* The north wing shows off more seep puzzles, like how they die if they are dropped on the floor

* The south wing introduces speed potions and how they cancel if you take a second one, which can be needed in some cases

* Past the blue door you encounter all the ROUS varieties from TSS

* At this point the Messanger's message has been so twisted now Beethro is the one getting help and not 39th Slayer

For level 18:

* The first room introduces decoys, the final in-engine potion of DROD

* The south wing introduces step-to-kill roles

Past the blue door, you learn about fire traps and how they are basically deadly yellow doors.

For level 19:

* The first room introduces brains and how they control roaches

* The north wing shows off more types of monsters brains interact with

* The east wing introduces Aumtlich and shows off their quirks, like how a sword can reflect their beam back at them

* The south wing introduces Constructs and their personal quirks, like how they die when pushed on oremites as well as when stabbed

* There are two secrets to this level, one that is combat based like in the original JtRH level 19, as well as one that is the Pit Thing telling you Dugan has expelled you also like in the original JtRH level 19

For level 20:

* The first room introduces tar and mud working together in the same room

* The north wing introduces tar-mud switch tokens

* The east wing introduces Soldiers and Stalwarts, and shows off the difference is that Soldiers can cross shallow water while Stalwarts cannot

* There is a secret room that is a harder tar-mud combination puzzle in this level

* Past the blue door you learn about the living obstacles that attack you when you turn back time, then go back to normal when you turn time back to the current day

For level 21:

* The first room has Halph stating he was recruited by the Architects

* The east wing introduces rock giants and shows off how they behave, as well as has a secret room that is harder than the main rooms

* The north wing has brained monster horde puzzles

* The south wing has bomb mazes galore like the original JtRH level 21

Past the blue door is an introduction to thin ice over shallow water

For level 22:

* The entrance room introduces gel switch tokens

* The north wing has puzzles about juggling a lot of mimics at once

* The south wing has more Slayer antics galore

* The east wing has more gel switch puzzles

* There is a secret room in this level too, that is in the Slayer wing

* Past the blue door is an introduction to the Flowers from the Flower Bed

For level 23:

* The first room introduces builders, and explains how they were ordered to stop you at all costs, and they are forbidden to disclose who told them

* The east wing has more builder puzzles galore, a la TCB Upper Lowest

* The north wing introduces Engineers, who don't need relay stations to build the tiles specified

* Past the blue door you are introduced to dart cannons and also darts you throw yourself, and you can't use your sword and throw darts at the same time with the way it is scripted by default

* At the very end of the level is 1st Archivist (the real one and not Arky) announcing he will do whatever it takes to stop you in level 25, like 39th Slayer did in the original JtRH level 23

For level 24:

* The level is just basically like TCB Lowest Proper, except the 1st Patron is the one commanding the builders to stop you from reaching the next level and not Halph cause Halph is not working for the DAA yet

For level 25:

* The level is just one big showdown against 1st Archivist KDD level 25 style, and also introduces the Living Walls from Nethlekempt Farrows and broken and cracked orbs, and if you win 1st Archivist escapes to live another day but Halph still accuses you of being a murderer with everything else you've killed, and runs away to join the Empire

It's all solid for a fan project, even though it obviously rips off directly a lot of the original DROD canon?
12-14-2024 at 08:51 PM
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averagemoe
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I propose an alternate way of handling the backtracking between the 13th and 15th levels. Instead of backstage passages through level 14, use a variable for an event flag. The prison part of level 13 would be behind a puzzle that requires the TTF to get through. And the stairs to level 16 are guarded by a puzzle that you need Halph for.

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12-14-2024 at 10:16 PM
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azb
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Awesome thinking, using the stuff the TCB thru TSS engines and holds give you that weren't available in the JtRH era to spice up this JtRH tribute hold so it's not a dry retelling (which I did in earlier levels too, like used briars in level 4 and not just only trapdoors like the original).
12-14-2024 at 10:33 PM
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azb
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Do you have any commentary for level 10 (again, I am still waiting for mrimer to tell me how to get the Archivist and Patron tileset without being able to download the official bonus pack for that one room at the end of level 11 before I publish it)?
12-14-2024 at 10:36 PM
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azb
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And on your idea, instead of stairs leading from level 12 to level 11 and then level 10 like the original JtRH, I can have the secret room in level 10 with the tar mothers in it require an Empire name to get to, so that way it's not possible without exploring level 12 to the point of getting your Empire name first (which requires clearing a handful of tar mother rooms before entering the Naming Office currently).
12-14-2024 at 10:48 PM
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averagemoe
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Well, one of the things I was considering for that Entry Point style hold was not to focus on spiders invisibility, (in fact, every room they appear in would have a vision token right at the start) but instead make use of their ability to move through shallow water, while roaches can't. You can still keep the introduction of the stealth mechanic for level 16 by simply turning off the player's ability to wade until then.

Of course, I haven't actually been playing this. I'm just going off your descriptions.

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[Last edited by averagemoe at 12-15-2024 02:45 AM]
12-15-2024 at 02:44 AM
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azb
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That detail is intentional, before DROD 4.0 the only difference between spiders and roaches was the stealth mechanic and I want to introduce the stealth mechanic before shallow water interactions because the spiders were introduced for the stealth mechanic first and foremost.
12-15-2024 at 06:56 AM
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bbb
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Click here to view the secret text

12-15-2024 at 02:50 PM
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azb
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Awesome bug/annoyance reports and challenge suggestions as always.
12-15-2024 at 02:53 PM
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azb
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How do I implement the challenges for level 3 and level 10? Everything else I fixed and implemented, but I don't think there's a way to count the number of monsters in a room and likewise I don't think there's an event for removing a pile of rubble specifically.
12-15-2024 at 03:03 PM
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azb
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Again, I am still waiting for responses from mrimer on how to get the Archivist tiles if I downloaded TSS from GOG Games and not the Caravel Downloads page before publishing level 11, and while I was there I also asked him about if I could also please get the big orb graphic from TCB's Gate of Namedeness given how I already played through and mastered the GOG Games version of TCB, just like I did for TSS.
12-15-2024 at 04:30 PM
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Nuntar
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For Level 3, you could make the challenge to let one Slayer live, which is much easier to script and kinder to the player. You are right, there isn't an event for Rubble smashed.

Challenge: Don't drop trapdoors in L8 1E

Challenge: Don't use the mimic in L10 2S

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12-15-2024 at 05:37 PM
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azb
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Awesome suggestions as well!
12-15-2024 at 05:44 PM
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azb
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Tell you guys what, while I wait for the Archivist tiles I can post the majority of level 11 leading up to there, as there are literally only two rooms after that one room introducing the real 1st Archivist.
12-15-2024 at 05:59 PM
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bbb
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5.2 has a new "wait for monster remains" command.

It will also have some count commands (for the slayers), though you can implement that now by using a loop and "wait for".

Letting one slayer live in L3 is much less interesting.

(I also mentioned a challenge for L8 which requires letting all (3) slayers live.)

The L10 challenge Nuntar mentioned is nice.

[Last edited by bbb at 12-15-2024 08:37 PM]
12-15-2024 at 08:31 PM
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azb
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The drod version I got from GOG is from before 5.2, one of the 5.1 versions, so that explains that - however I will keep the challenges as Nuntar stated for now.

Do you have any comments for level 11 (again only two of the rooms are inaccesible without the Archivist tiles present - all the rest are still 110% solvable like all the earlier levels?)
12-16-2024 at 10:41 AM
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azb
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Okay, now I've got the Patron and Archivist tiles officially from mrimer.

I still have to wait to get the big orb graphics from the Gate of Namedeness for my version of it in level 12, but other than that level 11 is fully finished and the first 3 required rooms of level 12 are also posted now - the other rooms in this level are secret rooms I haven't made yet and rooms involving the Gate of Namedeness, which I still don't have the sprite for.
12-17-2024 at 12:17 AM
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azb
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Now I got the big orb tiles succesfully as well, so there's no excuse for to delay the rest of the hold any longer - I am just coming up with ideas for the rest of the rooms of level 12 right now, even though I have all the graphics I need, again because I want the puzzles to be high quality rather than just rushed war style.
12-17-2024 at 12:32 AM
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azb
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I also haven't added the secret room in level 10 that requires you to backtrack from level 12 yet, just because I am still working on coming up with a good room for it just like why I haven't finished the secret room in level 12 above the second room for the same exact reason - I know what I want conceptually for both rooms but I just haven't actually implemented them yet, mostly because I am busy with other things in my life like personal errands.
12-17-2024 at 12:38 AM
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