Rabscuttle
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File: King Dugans Dungeon and Halph.hold (148.7 KB)
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Here's KDD if Beethro took Halph along. I'm currently doing a LP of it to see which rooms can be done quicker.

I do it using a global script that tries to place Halph every 5 turns on the square that Beethro entered on. He's not quite smart enough to avoid entering on a sword.
But if it's on a room edge, then Halph will follow Beethro in, same as if he was placed normally, so that's nice and saved me having to modify every room.

I also swap out all the walls for hard walls for that more authentic AE feel.

Anyway here it is if anyone wants to play it too, or to change the global script for something else, like giving Beethro a different weapon or a command key tool, etc.

v2: fixed halph entry

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 12-16-2023 12:51 PM]

averagemoe
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I've often been interested in seeing just how much a raygun would actually break the original KDD. But I never really thought trying it was worth the effort.

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Rabscuttle
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KDD with raygun instead of sword, I think you'd get stuck. First Level : 5 North, 1 West is probably the first impossible room.

You can kill one of the roaches, but then the second one is behind you and I think you'd need a 1-width vertical wall to get far enough away to let you turn and shoot.

All the diagonal sidestep/kills in Tenth Level would also be a stopper.

I guess you'd want to add a bypass secret code that'd give you your sword back or joker-solve the room to allow you to pass. Could add a counter that could keep track of how many times you used it, which might be interesting.

One thing I'm vaguely curious of is if Halph makes any rooms impossible - Journey to Rooted Hold : Ninth Level : 2 South, 2 East would be impossible if Halph wandered in after you, but I don't think there's any rooms that are constrictive like that in KDD.

Dragon Fogel
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Rabscuttle wrote:
You can kill one of the roaches, but then the second one is behind you and I think you'd need a 1-width vertical wall to get far enough away to let you turn and shoot.

No, that's solvable, you can use the horizontal wall for separation. You just need to get the roach on your left, which should be doable with the various 2-by-2 obstacles. After that walk to the edge of the wall and cross it diagonally, the roach never gets into the column that lets it cross.

NoahT
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File: KDDaH Twelfth Level 1N Halph delayed.demo (37.9 KB)
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Found a scripting issue when playing through L12: if a snake blocks Halph from entering, his entrance is significantly delayed once the snake is gone.

EDIT: It appears to not just be snakes, but anything blocking Halph five turns in, such as Beethro himself.

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[Last edited by NoahT at 12-15-2023 07:58 PM]

Rabscuttle
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That should be intentional, if it's blocked it should wait for a multiple of 5 for Halph to appear, which replicates how an ordinary Halph behaves.

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 12-16-2023 05:05 AM]

NoahT
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Waiting is intentional, but not for the length of a full spawn cycle.

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Rabscuttle
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ohhhhh sorry, I see now.

I'm using Wait 1 but MyScriptX is set to Beethro's start position, so it's waiting that number of turns instead.

Rabscuttle
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File: King Dugans Dungeon and Rayguns.hold (158.5 KB)
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I've updated first post with a fixed Halph entry

Attached to this post is KDD & Rayguns.

First impossible room is L2: 2N (unless you go a different way - maybe 2W although I haven't checked it properly)

I've added an override that kills all monsters (and gives you your sword back for that room)
To activate it, when you enter a room, do one full rotation clockwise, then hit the command key.

Kalin
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Rabscuttle wrote: Attached to this post is KDD & Rayguns.

First impossible room is L2: 2N (unless you go a different way - maybe 2W although I haven't checked it properly)

There is no other way... you have to kill that group of 5 roaches to reach any adjacent rooms.

I'm not seeing a solution for 1E or 2E either.

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Dragon Fogel
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Okay, but what's the first impossible room if we upgrade from Raygun to Raydart?

Rabscuttle
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Any room with a red door won't be possible if you can't drop trapdoors.

Level 10 has those diagonal sidesteps.

8 gates might be interesting with the raydarts. You'll hit each orb twice, which makes normal solution impossible but because there's a delay between the hits, does that help? Also you could possibly close a door on a dart.

Rabscuttle
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File: King Dugans Dungeon and Darts.hold (168.2 KB)
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KDD and Darts

Rabscuttle
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File: King Dugans Dungeon and Raydarts.hold (168.2 KB)
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KDD and Ray Darts. Your main enemies are toggle orbs. You get stuck at the third room of the hold. L1:1N1W

averagemoe
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How about KDD and dagger, caber, pickaxe or spear. Those sound unlikely to get you stuck. Unlike that useless staff...

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NoahT
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With the dagger, red door rooms would need an override.

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Nuntar
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Level 1 6N2W is impossible with a spear (surprisingly, the third corridor is possible, but the fourth is not).

Any room requiring you to break crumbly walls is impossible with a caber (no bombs or kegs yet!) Level 3 2S2W is the first one.

Not sure yet about pickaxe.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-17-2023 05:16 PM]

Kalin
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Nuntar wrote:
Level 1 6N2W is impossible with a spear (surprisingly, the third corridor is possible, but the fourth is not).

Fourth corridor is possible; I found it easier than the third. The challenge is impossible.

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bbb
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Nuntar wrote:
Level 1 6N2W is impossible with a spear

Not true.

You can finish (at least) level 6. Some rooms become much more interesting...

You can also finish level 7 (including master intellect).

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[Last edited by bbb at 12-17-2023 09:08 PM]

bbb
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[Post Deleted] Nuntar wrote:

bbb wrote: You can finish (at least) level 6. Some rooms become much more interesting...

You can also finish level 7 (including master intellect).

You were able to do 7 1N1W? I've confirmed that the rest of Levels 2, 3 and 7 are possible (including 7 1S, which is really hard!) but I couldn't figure that one out. Levels 4, 5 and 6 can be skipped (there is no difficulty in reaching the warp room) but it's a good point that they may still be interesting to look at for challenges.

Yes. I cleared level 7. And levels 4-6, even though they can be skipped.

Nuntar
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Unsurprisingly, all of Level 8 is possible with the spear.

I skipped Level 9 as it didn't look very interesting to solve.

Level 10 1N1W is impossible.

* * *

Level 7 1N is impossible with any weapon that doesn't drop trapdoors. It is the first progression-blocking room with darts (4 1N and 1S1E are impossible but can be skipped); not sure if there are any earlier impossible rooms with the dagger.

Level 8 3S1W and Level 10 1N1W are also impossible with the dagger (as is 10 1N1E because of the red door, already mentioned).

* * *

I've confirmed all of Level 10 with the pickaxe; nothing before then looks impossible but I haven't tested yet. So that might be the weapon that gets the furthest.

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bbb
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I think these rooms cannot be done with a spear:

L10 1N1W: The first pair of roaches can't be cleared with a spear. The rest can be. (I switched back to a sword for the first section, then switched back.)

L10 1S1E: I came up a bit short on the third section of the room. I can't say for certain that it is not possible. After clearing the third section with a sword, I could clear the overrun fourth section with the spear.

L22 1N1E: There seem to be too many roach eggs per cycle for a spear. The brains seem to prevent ideas of luring queens out of the boxes. (Just solved the whole room with a sword.)

Except for these rooms, I completed up to (and including) level 24 (skipping level 13).

In level 25, I cleared until 1N1W. I am currently stuck on 1N2W, and am not sure it is clearable with a spear. I expect 2S to also be unclearable with a spear.

Rabscuttle
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File: King Dugans Dungeon and Hookshots.hold (161 KB)
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KDD & Hookshots

averagemoe
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We're all speculating on things that might make it easier. But some of us want more of a challenge instead. So, what if, KDD and Slayer?

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Kalin
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averagemoe wrote: But some of us want more of a challenge instead.

KDD with staff. How far do you have to go before you find a room that's solvable?

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Rabscuttle
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haha, the first room with pits and monsters is L2:1S1E, which also has the first wraithwing

L2: 2S1E, 2S2E, 2S3E all have pits so they'd be the first ones you can beat.

Nuntar
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I'm not sure you can beat 2S1E. I can get all the doors open, but can't find a way to get north of the queens to finish the room.

2S2E is easy, and 2S3E is tricky but doable.

* * *

With the dagger, all of Levels 1-5 are possible. So are the east and north wings of Level 6 (even 3N, which is intended to require dropping trapdoors for mimic leverage!) but I haven't yet found a way to solve 1W. (As mentioned above, Level 6 can be skipped but then Level 7 1N is impossible.)

* * *

Still working on pickaxe. I've completed Levels 1-6 as well as 10; I suspect all of 7-9 are beatable, and it seems moderately likely that every room in the hold is beatable.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-19-2023 11:36 AM]

bbb
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Nuntar wrote:
Still working on pickaxe. I've completed Levels 1-6 as well as 10; I suspect all of 7-9 are beatable, and it seems moderately likely that every room in the hold is beatable.

Clearable at least to L12.

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[Last edited by bbb at 12-19-2023 12:31 PM]

Rabscuttle
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File: Staff2L2S1E.PNG (68.7 KB)
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Staff L2:2S1E is possible. Have to hit some roaches north while getting the queens to run south, then have to face north in order to retreat south while backswiping new roaches. Then I might have got lucky with only two roaches spawned on one side which allowed me to get over to that side before being attacked from behind.



--

I checked a few rooms that I though might be problematic with the pickaxe, but they all were ok.

L12: 1S is possible, if you kill the first one by turning, there's enough corners to allow you to face the rest of the ones in the corridor.

L19: 1S1W has a race at the start where the pickaxe takes an extra turn, but there enough leeway.

L17: 2N1W - I thought maybe cutting through the tar would take long enough that the north tar would clog up the passageway, but it's ok.

L23: 2W - There's a bit of clearing crumbly wall while pursued by a goblin, but it's doable.

Someone Else
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averagemoe wrote:
We're all speculating on things that might make it easier. But some of us want more of a challenge instead. So, what if, KDD and Slayer?

With the Slayer, L1 6N2W is impossible.