Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 06-21-2014
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Looked at this old thread and decided to start brute forcing possibilities to find things that can be placed one way but not another.
Because this is fairly involved, at the moment I'm just checking floor tile/object layer inconsistencies.
This is also not completely exhaustive as I've only been checking potions as a group, tokens as a group, etc. so if there's some weird exception among those I haven't caught it yet. Just going for something that can be checked quickly right now.

Here's what I noticed:
-Walls/hard walls can be placed under potions/horns, but potions/horns cannot be placed on walls.
-Broken/secret walls can be placed under kegs, but kegs cannot be placed on broken/secret walls.
-Closed doors of any kind cannot be placed under kegs. However, kegs can be placed on closed doors.
-Lightposts cannot be placed on any sort of open door, closed door, or platform; but these can all be placed under lightposts.
-Master walls can be placed under potions/horns, but potions and horns cannot be placed on master walls. Same applies to hold complete walls.
-Tunnels can be placed under anything on the object layer, but briar (all types) and lightposts cannot be placed on tunnels.
-Quirk: Placing a closed door on a tile with briar (any type) on it destroys the briar. It would be more consistent with general editor use if the door were simply not placed - this is how it functions with fluff, which has similar restrictions.
-Quirk: If you place stairs so that some tiles are under objects that block stair placement and others aren't, the stairs will not be marked in the editor.
-Also discovered in the process of testing this: making a lot of changes in one editor session can crash the game. I guess it's an issue with the undo queue getting too big?

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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So some oversights:

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Broken/secret walls can be placed under kegs, but kegs cannot be placed on broken/secret walls.

This also applies to mirrors, somehow I overlooked this.

The other big thing is that I forgot to check stepping stones last night. Turns out they have a couple of other oddities.
-Tarstuff can be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones cannot be placed under tarstuff.
-Briar and relay stations cannot be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones can be placed under briar and relay stations.

Also tested out individual potions/tokens/etc. and none of them produced different results from the ones I tested last night. Not obstacles or different colors of relay station, though, because there's a lot of them and I'm way too lazy to confirm that they're all functionally identical as they should be.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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Started setting up to test monsters. Haven't gotten that done yet, but I noticed you can't place a monster under a weapon. However, you can place an entity with a weapon so that the weapon is over a monster. I remember bringing this up with a specific instance (level entrances, I think) but apparently not monsters in general? Did some quick testing with objects and this wasn't an issue with any I tried, but I didn't check systematically yet.

Also, if you attempt to place a gentryii head under a weapon, you will not place the head but will attempt to place the chain, and can only cancel out of this process with the Esc key - clicking with the mouse does not allow canceling.

Serpents can be placed under weapons, however.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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Tested most monster/tile combinations. Seep can only be placed on walls so I haven't checked what can be placed under them; I also did not check characters, 39th Slayer or either Halph, since they can't be mass-placed.

So, more inconsistencies that turned up in that process:

-Monsters cannot be placed on stairs, but stairs can be placed under all monsters.
-Tunnels cannot be placed under tarstuff mothers (whether there's tarstuff under them or not), but tarstuff mothers can be placed on tunnels.
-Walls, hard walls, broken walls, secret walls, master walls, and hole complete walls can be placed under gentryii heads, but gentryii heads cannot be placed on any of them. Chains can be place on all.

Also ran into a bug where, when I copied part of a room and tried to paste it into a new room, I got prompted to delete the room. Selecting "no" allowed me to paste, selecting "yes" pasted a room I copied earlier. Apparently both the room and the tile selection were stored in the clipboard equivalent at the same time.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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And finally, testing monsters and objects.

-Slayers (including 39th Slayer) and Halph can be placed on all types of briar. The other way around doesn't work. In general I haven't commented on which way the change should happen, but here I'm thinking it makes the most sense to prevent them from being placed on briar.
-There are also some inconsistencies with Halph/Slayer entrances. For instance, you can place an orb on one, but not place one under an orb. However, since the player has to enter the room from that tile for them to work, I don't think this particular example actually creates problems - but it also raises the question of why placing an entrance there works.
Think it will be best to look at this in a separate thread and just check for things the player can enter on where this inconsistency exists, and also note things that can't be entered on where this allows creating an entrance.

In addition, I forgot to check scrolls earlier.

-Scrolls cannot be placed on walls, hard walls, master walls, or hold complete walls. All of these can be placed under scrolls.
-Scrolls can be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones cannot be placed under scrolls.

I haven't tested all monsters with objects yet; still need to do snakes, gentryii, and rock giants, as well as 39th Slayer, Halph, and characters for completeness. Still, I'm not expecting weird stuff with the large monsters, at least.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 06-21-2014
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Missed something: Slayers and Halph can also be placed on top of mirrors and lightposts, unlike most monsters. The other way around doesn't work. They cannot be placed on kegs.

I haven't fully tested placing things under Slayer and Halph; mostly just things that they can be placed on that other monsters can't.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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hyperme submitted fixes for the next build:

PR

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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Guess I'll run through these by going through one of my old posts at a time.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Walls/hard walls can be placed under potions/horns, but potions/horns cannot be placed on walls.

Potions and horns can now be placed on walls/hard walls.

-Broken/secret walls can be placed under kegs, but kegs cannot be placed on broken/secret walls.

Kegs can now be placed on broken/secret walls.

-Closed doors of any kind cannot be placed under kegs. However, kegs can be placed on closed doors.

All closed doors can now be placed under kegs.

-Lightposts cannot be placed on any sort of open door, closed door, or platform; but these can all be placed under lightposts.

Liightposts can be placed on platforms. Doors cannot be placed under lightposts, whether open or closed.

-Master walls can be placed under potions/horns, but potions and horns cannot be placed on master walls. Same applies to hold complete walls.

Potions and horns can be placed on master walls and hold complete walls.

-Tunnels can be placed under anything on the object layer, but briar (all types) and lightposts cannot be placed on tunnels.

Briar and lightposts can now be placed on tunnels.

-Quirk: Placing a closed door on a tile with briar (any type) on it destroys the briar. It would be more consistent with general editor use if the door were simply not placed - this is how it functions with fluff, which has similar restrictions.

This is still the case - closed doors can be placed on tiles with briar and will overwrite it, but cannot be placed on tiles with fluff.

-Quirk: If you place stairs so that some tiles are under objects that block stair placement and others aren't, the stairs will not be marked in the editor.

Now if you place stairs so some tiles are under objects that block stair placement and others aren't, the stairs will not be placed at all.

-Also discovered in the process of testing this: making a lot of changes in one editor session can crash the game. I guess it's an issue with the undo queue getting too big?

Did not test for this, if there was an attempt to fix it. I didn't get a crash, but I didn't keep one room open for a while while making a big pile of changes either.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
So some oversights:

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Broken/secret walls can be placed under kegs, but kegs cannot be placed on broken/secret walls.

This also applies to mirrors, somehow I overlooked this.

Mirrors can now be placed on broken/secret walls.

The other big thing is that I forgot to check stepping stones last night. Turns out they have a couple of other oddities.
-Tarstuff can be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones cannot be placed under tarstuff.

Stepping stones can now be placed under tarstuff.

-Briar and relay stations cannot be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones can be placed under briar and relay stations.

Briar can now be played on stepping stones. Relay stations still cannot. Stepping stones can still be placed under relay stations; this produces an error.
(The error exists in 5.1 as well. In that version, briar on stepping stones also produces an error; it no longer does.)

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
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Not going to make a separate post about weapons, so I'll just note what I've observed.

-Gentryii can now be placed under weapons.
-Other monsters (besides serpents) still cannot.

Dragon Fogel wrote:
-Monsters cannot be placed on stairs, but stairs can be placed under all monsters.

This is still the case.

-Tunnels cannot be placed under tarstuff mothers (whether there's tarstuff under them or not), but tarstuff mothers can be placed on tunnels.

Still true.

-Walls, hard walls, broken walls, secret walls, master walls, and hole complete walls can be placed under gentryii heads, but gentryii heads cannot be placed on any of them. Chains can be place on all.

This is still the case.

Also ran into a bug where, when I copied part of a room and tried to paste it into a new room, I got prompted to delete the room. Selecting "no" allowed me to paste, selecting "yes" pasted a room I copied earlier. Apparently both the room and the tile selection were stored in the clipboard equivalent at the same time.

Did not attempt to recreate this, if there was an effort to fix it.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged

Dragon Fogel wrote:
And finally, testing monsters and objects.

-Slayers (including 39th Slayer) and Halph can be placed on all types of briar. The other way around doesn't work. In general I haven't commented on which way the change should happen, but here I'm thinking it makes the most sense to prevent them from being placed on briar.

Slayers and Halph can no longer be placed on briar, mirrors, or lightposts.

In addition, I forgot to check scrolls earlier.

-Scrolls cannot be placed on walls, hard walls, master walls, or hold complete walls. All of these can be placed under scrolls.

Scrolls can now be placed on all of the above.

-Scrolls can be placed on stepping stones, but stepping stones cannot be placed under scrolls.

Scrolls can now be placed on stepping stones.

So it looks like the monster inconsistencies remain, except that gentryii heads can be placed under weapons. Other than that, the only remaining inconsistency in here is that relay stations can't be placed on stepping stones but the other way around works, and the quirk that placing closed doors overwrites briar but not fluff.