Bent
Level: Delver
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File: Floating Friendship Facility v7.hold (43.6 KB)
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This one-level hold contains thirty rooms that are all about Halph. Approximated difficulty is 6 to 8 brains, depending on the room. The level has an open layout with most rooms accessible from the get-go.

All kinds of feedback are appreciated, as are demos (even if you don't think you've broke anything).

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[Last edited by Bent at 11-17-2018 02:02 PM]

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

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File: Floating Friendship Facility.demo (18.4 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

I've only completed a third of this, but it definitely feels like it will get rated in the 7.5 to 8 brain level on average when it gets published. Most of these rooms are quite tricky. Even the first puzzle room (1N) was fairly difficult. There's nothing wrong with starting off with a difficult room, especially since it seems like the whole level is fairly difficult, but it's good to consider that the entrance is much closer to the 8 brain realm of the spectrum. The rainbow room (3N2E) is the only one that feels in the 5 to 6 brain range so far. It was nice to have a less difficult room as a breather and that room was particularly fun.

More than half of the rooms that I've played have been fun linchpin style puzzles so far. Only 1N1W and 1N1E felt like they were overly reliant on guessing Halph's path mapping. I brute forced those and suspect that's basically the only way to do them. The others have been satisfying though. I doubt I've done anything unintentional yet, but demo are attached in case you want them. I'll attempt to post more feedback once I've cleared most of the hold.

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Bent
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Thanks again for your feedback Insoluble, it is much appreciated!

I agree that 1N1W and 1N1E aren't very good rooms, and relies somewhat on trial and error; at best they may give you some idea of how Halph's pathfinding works. I think they're pretty easy and straight forward though, and I'm not sure whether the hold would benefit from removing them or not. I'll consider what to do with them...

You solved every room in the intended way, so that's good. And it's always interesting to see how other people approach my rooms.

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[Last edited by Bent at 03-24-2018 03:10 PM]

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

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File: Floating Friendship Facility.demo (21 KB)
Downloaded 43 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay. I've cleared all but three of the required rooms, but have hit a bit of a wall on those three. I have not tried any of the secret rooms yet and suspect that they are going to melt my brains. Demos are attached. I don't think I am doing anything unintended. I enjoyed playing this a lot! The puzzles are fairly tricky, but very satisfying. Most of the rooms are not super exact in execution, so once you figure out the concept of the room actually carrying it out is quite enjoyable.

3N: This is possibly my favorite room. The linchpin/ goal of the room is amazing! I understood fairly early on that I needed Halph to cycle endlessly, but it took me a while to find a way to make it happen. It is a tricky room, but completely fair though, because everything you need to do can be logically deduced. I love rooms like this that require the player to set up a mechanism and provides the player with some open ended resources with which to construct it. In this case you gave me just barely enough rock golems, but I think that's fine too. Giving more golems may have made things easier, but the room is very elegant as it is.
3N2E: This was a neat little room. It was one of the less difficult ones in the hold, and was also very unique looking. I had a lot of fun with it. It would probably be best to include a checkpoint, possibly at (18,25). If you want to, you could also include a scroll letting players that they may want to make sure alpha blending is on in this room to help them coordinate.
2N2W: This was one of the less difficult rooms (though by no means simple!) and was one of the first I completed. I almost wish it had been the first room I encountered. Very nice room that relies on careful thinking on how the Halph element works.
2N1W: This room looked intimidating, but it was fairly reasonable once I understood what it was asking me to do. It took me a few attempts before I found a configuration of decoys + mimic that would work.
2N: I put this one off for a bit. In the end I solved it more though experimentation than through carefully thinking about what would be optimal, but I can see that there is a secret room that will require me to think about this one more logically when I attempt it. Not a bad room, and I'm glad that this more forgiving version is the required one and that the other one is secret.
2N1E: This one is stumping me. I think I need to get Halph somewhere on the northern island (for instance, at (11,5)) when I bump the yellow door. But I have no idea how to accomplish this while still allowing him a path to get off the island. Am I on the right track at least?
2N2E: This room was a lot of fun. It felt like it was much more about rock giant and golem manipulation than it was about Halph, but it was actually a nice change of pace. It may be possible to do with one less golem, but I didn't bother to try. This was also one of the first rooms I completed, possibly because it was more about golems than Halph manipulation.
1N2W: This was a fun room. It was a bit more open ended than some of the other rooms, and it is nice that there is some flexibility in the solution. Very nice room.
1N1W: and 1N2W: These rooms are similar, and more execution oriented than other rooms in the level. I don't think that's necessarily a problem. It's fine to have a variety of room types. Ideally it would be nice if they were not the very next rooms you come across after the first puzzle room.
1N: This is the first impression players will have of the hold. It's a very nice puzzle, but definitely on the tricky side. It was not the first room I solved (I think it was 4th or 5th?). I played around with it a bit when I first came to it, but did not see one of the crucial steps so I ended up skipping it. There is nothing wrong with starting with a fairly difficult room, especially since the entire hold is pretty difficult. And since it is open ended, players can skip it and come back to it. The room was a great introduction to the hold though. The solution is clean and focused. The only minor gripe I can think of is that it is somewhat annoying to cross east-west through this room once it is cleared.
1N2E: Another room that was not too bad. The snake manipulation was reasonable here. Fun room. Possibly a checkpoint in the middle of the room would be nice.
1N3E: I thought I had this one, but then it turns out that Beethro won't summon Halph to open a door he bumps if there is a force arrow pointing the other way. I never knew this! Very interesting. It looks like I need to somehow stand on the arrow for 9 spawn cycles while preventing Halph from returning to that pressure plate. I need to kill the roach somehow, so it can't be locked in a perpetual back and forth alternating with Halph. Not sure what to do about this one honestly.
1W: Another very fun room. I'm glad that the execution was not overly precise and that I had a bit of flexibility with timing here. Once I figured out what needed to be done, it was not overly fiddly to make it happen.
1E: I'm lost on this one. I think maybe I am supposed to hit the plate at (24,24) in such a way that maybe Halph is returning somewhere and happens to wander over the plate at (17,16)? I have no idea how to make that work though.
2E: Okay, so I did one secret room. This one is fun though. I guess it was made a secret because it depends on move order? It is totally fair though, and I think this is a very reasonable room. I enjoyed it.

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Bent
Level: Delver
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Wow, that's a lot of feedback to take in! I'll watch your demos soon, and try my best to improve the hold based on your suggestions. But first, here's some tips for those rooms you're stuck on:

2N1E:

1N3E:

1E: This room is really more about slayers than Halph, and may be a tad unfair. If you think I should remove it (or make it secret) after having seen the solution, please let me know.

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[Last edited by Bent at 03-27-2018 05:13 PM]

Bent
Level: Delver
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Hold updated! Changes:
1E is replaced with a new room, as I didn't like the old one.
Checkpoints are added at the places Insoluble suggested, as well as a scroll in 2N2E.
1N1W is changed a bit.
1W: Insoluble solved this in a different way than I had intended. I didn't like the original solution so I changed the room to fit his solution instead.

I considered reorganizing the level so that some of the easier rooms are closer to the entrance, but realized that I would have to completely redesign some rooms to make it look all right. That would take a lot of time and potentially introduce unintended solutions, so I decided to leave the layout as it is for the time being.

There's still some rooms that I'm not sure that I am happy with, 1N1W and 1W in particular. I may change these in a future update.

Insoluble wrote: It may be possible to do with one less golem, but I didn't bother to try.

Actually both rock golem rooms (3N and 2N2E) contain one more rock golem than is needed, but I'm perfectly fine with that.

Insoluble wrote: I have not tried any of the secret rooms yet and suspect that they are going to melt my brains. [...] Okay, so I did one secret room. This one is fun though. I guess it was made a secret because it depends on move order?

It was partly because of move order, but mostly because I didn't think it fit in with the other rooms. As for the rest of the secret rooms, some of them are hard, but there's at least one which I think is easier than a lot of the required rooms.

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[Last edited by Bent at 03-30-2018 01:11 AM]

Bent
Level: Delver
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Update:
* Both 1W and 1N1W are replaced with new rooms.
* Two secret rooms are added, turning the level into a lovely 6×4 rectangle.
* A couple of aesthetic improvements have been made in the Entrance, 2E and 2N2E, they should play more or less the same as before.

I'm feeling pretty happy with the hold now, and do not plan to add any more rooms. I think the new secret room at 3N3E may be a tad too easy, and would be interested in opinions on the matter. The new rooms, 1E, and every secret room except 2E, has not been playtested yet by other people than myself, and I will be thankful to anyone who does that.

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

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File: Floating Friendship Facility.demo (21.7 KB)
Downloaded 43 times.
License: Public Domain

Oh man. I keep meaning to post more comments and demos for this hold. I'm still having a great time with it but my progress is super slow. I'm definitely feeling at least 7.5 brain difficulty here, possibly 8+.

Thanks for the tips above. I had totally forgotten about resting Halph's resting position. That helped a lot. Managed to clear almost all of the required rooms and some of the secrets now. Here are some comments on things.

1W: I could see from fairly early on that the idea was to block Halph somehow to get enough time to drop the last trapdoor. I don't feel like I'm good enough at predicting what the heck Halph's path is going to be though, so I ended up just experimenting until I got something. I still have no idea why he doesn't just go to (21,13) in the end.

1N1W: Neat room. Very minimalist. Seems clearly impossible at first. It would be good to have a checkpoint somewhere in the vicinity of (18,16).

3N3E: This does indeed feel a bit on the easy side for a secret room compared to the overall difficulty of this hold. It's a fun room though, I enjoyed it.

1E: I really appreciate this room for focusing on the mechanic of Halph re-setting his resting spot. Your hint about that before and this room in particular really solidified that mechanic in my mind. I'm glad this is close to the entrance too as it will hopefully serve to remind players of how that works.

2N1E: Finally got this one thanks to your hints! This was a really nice room.

1N3E is my last required room. I'm close to a solution and have a good idea of what to do thanks again to your hints above. I just need to work out the trapdoor arrangement that will get things to work. At this point I'm one move off and think I can probably get it on my own.

The remaining secret rooms on the other hand all seem pretty tough. I've played around with most of them but am not near a solution yet. It took me a forever to see how 2N3E is even any different from the non-secret version. They looked identical so I tried to solve it the same way to see what the difference was. Wow! I didn't think to right click on the Halphs! Normal Halph is going to make this a lot trickier! For 3N1E I managed 11 toggles once, but I still feel like I'm way off from the final solution. I'll keep plugging away at it though!

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Bent
Level: Delver
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Hi Insoluble, and thanks for the additional feedback!

I have had a quick look at your demos, and everything seems to be solved as intended.

1W: The point of the room was to showcase how Halph’s backtracking is different from how he normally behaves. But I didn’t realize just how weird the room is before now. There’s two things one has got to realize about Halph to understand what’s happening here:
1: Halph is lazy: When calculating a path he will choose the shortest one available at the time, and will only look for other options if he detects a blockage somewhere along the path.
2: Weird quirk: Halph will not pathfind to his resting position, but rather to the nearest tile adjacent to his resting position. When he arrives there he will try to move back to the resting position if possible.

I think this is an interesting quirk to teach the player about, but it would probably be more fitting to do so in a secret room... I’ll replace this room (1W) when I get the time to do so.

Good luck with solving the rest of the rooms! And if you need some more hints I’m here to help.

Dying Flutchman
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Hi Bent,

I'm also playing this. Very nice puzzles. Not too many Halph puzzles around, but playing this, I'd say this should change

I like the way that most puzzles are very clean and quite flexible regarding the way they are carried out. Once the linchpin has been found, there is pretty much slack in many ways.

An regarding those linchpins: there's not really many ways that Halph can be used. Take him for a walk following you, or getting him to toggle doors. That's about it. You managed really well to make a set of very diverse puzzles nontheless!

The intricacies of Halph movement would be nice to see explained. As it is, the hold does not really help to understand them. With a little bit of fiddling around, I managed to solve all rooms so far (guess I'm halfway through now), without getting into Halph pathfinding details at all.

Perhaps it would be nice to have a couple of explanation rooms detailing Halph's quirks. Might make a nice post-mastery room or two.

Demos so far attached. Couple of remarks:


Will get back with further comments.

DF

____________________________
Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

Bent
Level: Delver
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Registered: 12-11-2015
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Hi Dying Fluchman, and thank you for your feedback and kind words! Unfortunately I can’t see any files attached to your post, so I’m unable to watch your demos, could you try uploading them again?

Dying Flutchman wrote: 1N This is pretty hard for the starting room. Indeed it it easy to skip, but still... I also recognize that geometry-wise, this room wants to live here, so it's your decision, but I think it makes a pretty "in-your-face" arrival and would try to place this room somewhere else.

Yeah, I agree that I got to do something about that, especially since you’re the second person to point this out.

Dying Flutchman wrote: The intricacies of Halph movement would be nice to see explained. As it is, the hold does not really help to understand them. […] Perhaps it would be nice to have a couple of explanation rooms detailing Halph's quirks. Might make a nice post-mastery room or two.

There are things about Halph’s movement that I don’t really understand myself, such as the exact details of pathfinding. Apart from that I’m aiming to include as many Halph quirks as possible in the hold, and make it clear to the player how they work. Speaking of which...

Dying Flutchman wrote: 1E Straigtforward puzzle room. I solved it by trying pretty blindly. Don't know the particulars of Halph movement, so can't preditct exactly when en why Halph halts. But works out even if you don't know the details.

As well as a puzzle room, this was meant as kind of a tutorial room, and understanding why Halph halts is somewhat important to some of the more difficult rooms in this hold. Here’s a rundown of why it happened:

Halph has something I call a “resting position”, which is the place he returns to after opening a door or is hindered from doing so. By default his resting position and starting position is the same. There are two things that will make Halph change resting positions:
1: When giving Halph a new command (“open the door!” or “wait here”) the tile he’s currently at becomes his new resting position (repeatedly bumping a door does not count as a new command).
2: When Halph wants to move back to his resting position but something blocks his path, the tile he’s currently at becomes his new resting position.
Knowing this, Halph’s halting is easily explainable: When the player bumps the door, Halph is given a new resting position. The player strikes the orb before Halph has time to move towards it. Since the door is already opened, and since Halph is already at his resting position, he won’t do anything.

I’m thinking about adding some introduction rooms at the start of the hold showing off some of the most useful Halph behaviors/quirks to know about, such as this one. I will also reorganize the rooms somewhat. It may take me a while to get a new version up though, since I’m pretty busy these days.

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
Registered: 12-11-2015
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Oh, and there’s one more thing I forgot to address:

Dying Flutchman wrote: 2WDid I break this? Was way easier than the non-secret version... Perhaps the firetrap Bottom-Left should be ON when the room starts?

You have probably not broken the room. It is intended to be more about subverting your expectations than actually being tricky to execute; realizing that the room is impossible to solve in in a similar way as before, then noticing that the firetrap is always off and figuring out why this matters. But of course, no matter my intentions, the “did I break this”-reaction is often a sign of a bad room...

Dying Flutchman
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File: Floating Friendship Facility.demo (11 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

Hi Bent,

Demos should now be attached. Have played a lot more meanwhile.

Comments below:


Edit: mastered. 3N2W and 2N3E are actually not as bad as expected. Execution in both rooms is very reasonable. Again, it's the linchpin that drives you crazy. When it's solved, you really can't "unthink" the solutions anymore. Good puzzles again. No demos for these two rooms, but really can't imagine I broke something.

Now for the challenge: still completely stumped...

____________________________
Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 07-04-2018 09:14 AM]

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
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I have watched your demos, and most of the rooms were solved as intended, and no room-breaking bugs were found.

Dying Flutchman wrote: A small 'lounge' with a couple of scrolls to start of the hold explaining the rough behaviour of Halph would be very nice (for me at least). Of course, gory details are not necessary. After all, I now solved almost all rooms without knowing them

I like to avoid using text tutorials when possible, and would rather lead players to discover how things work using demonstration rooms and puzzles; there is a kind of beauty in teaching someone how a system works within the confines of said system. I’ve been working on six rooms which I plan to start the hold off with, which should hopefully do a decent job of demonstrating the most important things there are to know about Halph.

Response to comments:

Dying Flutchman
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Bent wrote:
...I’ve been working on six rooms which I plan to start the hold off with, which should hopefully do a decent job of demonstrating the most important things there are to know about Halph...

Sounds promising!

Bent wrote: but your comment influenced me to move the entrance instead, and replace it with what was previously 2N2W. And I’m really happy with how it’s turning out!

I can only stronly oppose. This will give each room new coordinates and invalidate all my solutions. Now I will have to play the hold again and I can't even consult my precious demos!

Dying Flutchman wrote: 2W I solved this before I solved the regular version

This is possible because you can go directly to the SE corner of 1N2W using a platform from 1N1W...

____________________________
Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 07-05-2018 06:38 PM]

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
Registered: 12-11-2015
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Dying Flutchman wrote: I can only stronly oppose. This will give each room new coordinates and invalidate all my solutions. Now I will have to play the hold again and I can't even consult my precious demos!

Man, that’s really unfortunate… I hadn’t thought about that. I think the changes I’ve made in the layout are really beneficial to the hold, plus there’s no way I can make the introduction rooms fit naturally in the level without moving the entrance... If I kept the entrance where it currently is, the hold would suffer from it, and in the end I think the quality of the hold is what matters the most. What I will do though is make the new hold version a copy, so that the engine treats it as a different hold. Then at least your demos will be intact. I’m really sorry about the inconvenience...

Dying Flutchman wrote: This is possible because you can go directly to the SE corner of 1N2W using a platform from 1N1W...

Oh, now I see it, thanks!

Dying Flutchman
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Just to make sure: just move the room around. My inconvenience was meant as a joke. Sorry for the confusion

____________________________
Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 07-05-2018 09:15 PM]

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
Registered: 12-11-2015
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Big hold update attached in the first post!
A note about this update: The level entrance has been moved, which causes all rooms to change names, invalidates demos, and generally messes up player progress. Therefore the new version of the hold has been made a copy, making the engine treat it like a completely separate hold from the previous versions. If you were playing on a previous version, remember than that you can switch back to it to watch your victory demos.

Other changes:

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[Last edited by Bent at 07-08-2018 07:53 PM]

Dying Flutchman
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Hi Bent,

Really like the introduction. I was wondering how exactly you were planning to do an intro into Halphology without explanations, and you did a great job.

I see the linchpin of both new normal rooms, but still struggling to actually solve. Don't see any way to break them, I presume.
Did not have a serious try at the new secret yet.

____________________________
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Insoluble
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File: Floating Friendship Facility.demo (18.1 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

Bumping this thread mostly because this hold is too good to not be published. I didn't replay most of the rooms I had played before and can't 100% remember which rooms I never got to finish, but I played the new intro areas and at least one room that I don't remember playing through before.

The introductory area does a nice job easing the player into the hold. I think the new arrangement works really well overall. One minor detail, it feels like the yellow door sequence in 1W and 2W maybe goes on a hair too long and I wouldn't complain if you shaved off a couple of doors from each. the same idea would come across, but it would feel like less waiting around for stuff to happen. You can be kind of sneaky in 4W by placing the decoy directly onto the conquer token. Not sure if that's a big deal though.

I really like the choice of 1N3W as the first "real" puzzle room. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the room currently in 1N4W was originally the first real puzzle and it felt like it was a pretty difficult introduction. 1N3W seems like a gentler intro to what is, admittedly, a pretty difficult hold.

I also tried the secret in 1N1W which I think is maybe new? I don't remember it from before, but thought it was a really nice room. I tried for a while to do something sneaky with multi-pushing to get past at least one fire trap, but I've just about convinced myself that's impossible. At the very least, any method that involved time clone shenanigans like that is going to be much more difficult and obscure than what I eventually came up with and assume is intended. I'd like to request a checkpoint on the time token for this room.

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Bent
Level: Delver
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Hi Insoluble!
I haven’t forgotten about this hold, but haven’t been playing much DROD lately, causing the release to be somewhat delayed. But just last week I started playing through this hold again to gather demos for the HAs, and just make sure that I am satisfied with the hold. So it shouldn’t be long now before it’s published.

Insoluble wrote: I didn't replay most of the rooms I had played before and can't 100% remember which rooms I never got to finish

Three rooms were added in the last update of the hold, located at 4N, 1N4W and 3N5W, so feel free to check them out if you feel like it.

1N1W has been there since the beginning actually. You solved it in the intended way.

I agree with your suggestion about 1W and 2W and will make them a bit shorter in the next version. Thanks!

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[Last edited by Bent at 11-07-2018 04:34 PM]

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
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A new version of the hold is now uploaded in the first post. Nothing major has been changed. I now consider the hold to be finished, and plan to click the “submit hold” button in a week or so. There are still a few rooms that has not been properly playtested by other people than me, namely 4N, 1N4W and 3N5W, so if anyone has played them or plan to do so, I’d appreciate having a look at your solutions. Also this is the last chance to speak out if you want anything changed in the hold or have found any unintended solutions.

Dying Flutchman
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Hi Bent,

Won't have time for a last review, but did look at your new rooms earlier: although I didn't solve them in the end, I couldn't find any possessive issues with them. So go ahead to HA. Hold will be great fun, even if one or two unintendies may slip through!

____________________________
Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

Bent
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 92
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Thanks for the encouraging words, Dying Flutchman! I will definitely publish the hold within a few days unless any glaring issues comes to my attention. I’m always dreading this part because it is so final, but looking forward to getting it out there as well.