I put together a new hold, basically two different levels, both focussing on combining two elements.
1) Time clones & time pressure (that is, use clones, but be quick or precise as well)
2) Gentryii & plates
Who'd like to test? I would be very greatful!
Don't hesitate to point out what's bad/wrong/no fun etc.
Changelog:
31 Oct - Many fixes, see response to Insoluble below.
2 Nov - Some more fixes
8 Nov - Even more fixes and minor improvements that needed more thought.
20 Nov - And yet more fixes. Added storyline and layout + removed unintended solution from Gentryii level.
24 Nov - Removed lots of hot tiles from Gentryii level.
6 Dec - Last edits, final call for testing (if you feel like it).
10 Dec - ...and... gone to HA
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos. [Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 12-10-2017 04:40 PM]
There's probably a lot to tell about the hold, but prefer to keep my request short. Don't want to spoil/direct your first impressions. Don't feel offended, there will be plenty of discussion later, I guess.
BTW2:
Yes, attentive players may (already have?) notice a problem with one of the secret rooms, where you need a sword but actually don't have one. I fixed that. (Yes, playing through a level is NOT the same as playing from the editor ) Will upload a new version later, when feedback from you has hopefully arrived.
Tnx again
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.
Right, I started playing through this a bit. Some demos are attached. I mostly played through the rooms in the time clone level. I don't think I was doing them the way you intended them to be done, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I get the feeling I'm not supposed to be able to clear the hub levels until reentering from their corresponding non hub levels, but both can be cleared from the hub.
Some thoughts on the time token level:
I'd found it really disorienting not having checkpoints on the time tokens. It's fairly standard practice at this point to put checkpoints on time tokens so that people can go back to the beginning of a timeline by hitting "R". That's such an entrenched habit that I found myself doing it anyway and accidentally going back to the room start instead. I'd say keep the checkpoints that you have, but add some under the time tokens. Looks like the other level has some rooms missing checkpoints completely and could probably use some. Otherwise it was a pretty neat level. Time clone puzzles are fun and these rooms were a lot of fun for the most part.
There were a lot of rooms in which I didn't need all the time tokens. That isn't necessarily bad, and many of these rooms were still fun.
The Entrance: has a fairly trivial solution using just one time token.
1W: Only needed 2 tokens, but not a bad room. I don't think this is trivial so much as just a short solution.
2W: I think I'm doing this the way you intended. I suspect you'll get some backlash on this one though, it's rather a lot of tasks to pre-program. I didn't bother trying to optimize my demo, but it feels like it's going to be a long room even when optimized. You could probably get the same idea across with just the first and last bit. It might also be feeling long to me because this was one of the rooms I accidentally pressed R in and got taken back to the room start.
1N2W: This was a neat room. I liked this one a lot. Haven't tried the secret variant yet.
1N1W: Has a trivial solution. The same thing probably works on the secret variant too.
1S2W: Looks like a mess of pressure plates. I skipped it on my play through but I'll try to go back to it.
1S1W: Can be done with two tokens, and to be honest it might very well be better that way. I'll say from first hand experience that when I tried to make a multi-push time clone room in the past it met with... mixed reviews. I personally wouldn't mind a fixed version of this room, but I suspect you'll get some backlash from others.
Click here to view the secret text
×Here's Jeff_Ray..'s reaction to a similar room for example.
1S: Seems to work as intended. Nice room.
2S1W: Has a fairly trivial solution.
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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:
I'd found it really disorienting not having checkpoints on the time tokens...
Added a bunch. I wasn't aware of this custom, at least, not explicitly aware. Would probably miss the token-checkpoints in other holds...
Insoluble wrote: The Entrance: has a fairly trivial solution using just one time token.
Certainly not intended. Fixed it. Learned a lesson here: never ever shift elements in your room simply for esthetic reasons...
Insoluble wrote: 1W: Only needed 2 tokens, but not a bad room. I don't think this is trivial so much as just a short solution.
Not trivial indeed, but the whole point was to enforce a strict time limit. Added a trapdoor and shortened the fuse for good measure.
I think it's really difficult to think of alternative solutions that break the plan in your mind. I'm just too focussed on realizing my idea's to stay in 'lateral thinking mode'.
Anyways, that's why we have testers here. Hooray!
Insoluble wrote: 2W: I think I'm doing this the way you intended...
Yes and no. I actually never left the main island during the whole exercise and my planning was quite precise. I could manage in way fewer moves, and - shouldn't say this myself - a bit more elegantly. However, I don't even have a demo (how do you record those in the editor?). So will have to rediscover my exact moves.
Will get back to this room later.
Insoluble wrote: 1N2W: This was a neat room. I liked this one a lot. Haven't tried the secret variant yet.
Insoluble wrote: 1N1W: Has a trivial solution. The same thing probably works on the secret variant too.
Fixed this
Insoluble wrote: 1S2W: Looks like a mess of pressure plates. I skipped it on my play through but I'll try to go back to it.
The 'mess' is not so very messy, once you understand what's going on. I do agree with the visual impression, however. Will try to enhance this. Perhaps using colored lights or something like that.
Insoluble wrote: 1S1W: Can be done with two tokens, and to be honest it might very well be better that way...
Your solution is neat enough, so I might keep it. Will get back to this to ponder hard and deep, with my thinking-fist under my chin.
Time Clone level 2W: this room had a suboptimal effort-satisfaction ratio. Removed a couple of arrows to make it quite accessible. Also added green door to prevent unintendies to mess with the room.
Time Clone level 1S1W: fixed the level to force intended solution. I am prepared to face the wrath of the drod community, but don't expect too much of it. The required solution is way easier than those used in Insoluble's hold...
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.
Are there any more players willing to test this hold?
I'm pretty confident with the T-clone level [I'm sure someone will break them when published anyways...], but really need some-one to try and break the Gentryii rooms
Remember: testers will be regarded with monumental attention in the hub!
Tnx!
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos. [Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 11-08-2017 08:22 AM]
I tried testing out the gentryii level. Ugh, chain straightening rooms are really not my thing. Sorry to say it, but I don't see myself playing through this whole level. Part of it is a personal dislike on my part for gentryii chain straightening rooms (check out skell's excellent video showing off how tedious it can be to predict these things even a few moves ahead). But also a lot of these rooms felt like they were mostly trial-and-error. I know what configuration I'm going for at the start, but there's no logical way to deduce how to get there other than testing out a bunch of possible moves. Maybe others will have a better time of it than I did.
A few things I will mention:
1) Since most of the floors are hot tiles, it's difficult to glance at the mini-map and tell what rooms are conquered and what rooms are clear. It might be nice to put a blob of normal floor in out of the way places in each room to make this easier since those will turn from red to green on the mini-map when you clear a room while hot tiles just stay orange.
2) It would be nice as a matter of convenience to include a place to change orientation near the entrances/exits to each room.
3) It looks like I can blow through the level only solving the entrance and 3W ans still get to the hub level 1S and clear that out. Am I meant to be able to skip most of this level and still clear the hold. Check the multi room demo I have to see how this can be done (if you start viewing the one labeled as (1) it will play through several rooms and exit the level without clearing most of it.)
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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:
Thanks again for testing, despite your stated dislike for gentryii rooms! Couple oif answers / nuances / fixes.
Insoluble wrote:
I tried testing out the gentryii level. Ugh, chain straightening rooms are really not my thing. Sorry to say it, but I don't see myself playing through this whole level.
Well, actually only one room is chain straigthening. And that one is very simple
Click here to view the secret text
×If you come from the correct entrance
Insoluble wrote:
But also a lot of these rooms felt like they were mostly trial-and-error.
Hmmm, I don't have the feeling that any of the rooms require much precision, I have no fixed ideas on move sequences in most of the rooms and basically just jump in to solve them. Don't have too many problems then. The rooms that do require precision can be predicted quite well.
But hey, fair enough that they don't make you tick. Let's wait what other testers will be saying.
Insoluble wrote:
1) It might be nice to put a blob of normal floor in out of the way places in each room to make this easier since those will turn from red to green on the mini-map when you clear a room while hot tiles just stay orange.
Good point. Did as suggested.
Insoluble wrote:
2) It would be nice as a matter of convenience to include a place to change orientation near the entrances/exits to each room.
Well, I didn't put those tiles in, but mainly for design reasons (like to have the rooms completely hot-tiled). I guess trading this for more playing convenience is a good idea. Did as suggested.
Insoluble wrote:
3) It looks like I can blow through the level only solving the entrance and 3W ...
Thanks for breaking things again :-)
Fixed.
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos. [Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 11-20-2017 04:19 PM]
I wanted to try and test the Gentryii level, but I don't think I can give any terribly meaningful comments because I can't actually solve any of the rooms in it. A lot of the rooms really suffer rather than benefit from being filled with hot tiles, in my opinion; for example, a brained gentryii horde is bad enough without being unable to stop or turn the sword. I don't personally understand how to accomplish much of anything in the two or three "remotely manipulate brained gentryii" rooms because it's just not the kind of puzzle I've had a lot of experience with, and the same basically goes for the one about precisely-timed chain manipulation.
Attempted the Gentryii level so far. Haven't cleared many rooms, these are my thoughts at the moment.
Click here to view the secret text
×Entrance: Nothing to this, just run.
1S: Just a mechanism for getting around, no real puzzle.
1S1W: Plan: try from the west entrance, attempt to double-press plates with Gentryii. Problem: No idea how to press the second plate. If it matched the plate at (10,15) instead of the one it currently matches, I'd be able to do it due to weird chain-straightening, but I can't tell if that's an oversight or if I'm supposed to do something else with the chain.
2S: The second actual puzzle room I solved, and it was very trial-and-error. It came down to "figure out which pressure plates are hard to press while gentryii are chasing you and then press those ones first", but I never really had a plan for what I was doing at any step.
2S1W: I don't understand the mechanism for getting out of the brain area. All the gentryii will end up to the south of their plates after the brains are dead, which means the bottom two plates are closed. Is the roach supposed to solve this problem somehow? I can't see any other option.
The basic idea seems okay, I'm just stuck on this one part.
1S2W: This room would be substantially improved without the hot tiles. They don't affect the actual puzzle very much and are mainly just an annoyance.
Setting up all the gentryii at once is proving annoying, too. I haven't done it yet. I know where I want them, but I haven't been able to get them all in place.
I'm fine with the basic idea but struggling with the exact details of the room.
Outside of 2S, the hot tiles don't have much impact, which mostly just makes them a nuisance. However, 1S2W was the main room out of the ones I tried where I actively wanted to be able to turn more freely. [Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 11-20-2017 10:41 PM]
Thanks for your input so far. What I've learned:
1) Appearantly, I have a knack for gentryii. Did not think the rooms too difficulult, but you seem to have some problems. I'll see what I can do. Options are: a) making rooms fundamentally easyer, e.g. removing some monsters
b) doing something with the hot tiles (but as Dragon Fogel said, they are not really impacting most of the rooms in terms of difficulty. thery are rather a nuisance)
c) give some sutle hints perhaps...
d) build some practice rooms to give the player an easier entry into the puzzles
In any case, I'll have to make clear that the gentryii level is more difficult than the time clone level. Perhaps I'll set them up as novice/expert levels. Perhaps even as separate holds.
2)Hot tiles are not ok. I'll have to think about it. I actually like the idea of running around with gentryii at your tail and hot tiles do "enhance" that experience... Free turning could trivialize some of the rooms, but I'll try them with and without hot tiles to see what happens.
Now for some answers to your questions/remarks:
1S1W
Click here to view the secret text
×Well, you don't have to press the plates exactly simultaneously
Click here to view the secret text
×you may be one move late or early
2S
Click here to view the secret text
×Approach by Dragon Fogel is what I had in mind. A big plan is not necessary here, it's rather about choosing clever routes around the pits to herd the gentryii. I'm sure there are many, many possible solution tactics. Perhaps this will be easier without hot tiles indeed, but I actually doubt if turning can be managed at all, even without them.
1S2W
Click here to view the secret text
×I do see the point of the hot tiles being a nuisance here. Setting up the gentryii should not be too difficult, but may require some trial and error to tweak. But I know the solutions, so perhaps I'm underestimating the effort it takes to find the correct positions
I'll get to work and update within the next two weeks.
Curious to hear what other comments you have.
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.
×1S2W: Got this now, it was a lot easier to think about it with the ability to free my sword. Seems good.
2W: At first this looked painful, then I lead some gentryii into the path and thought "oh this isn't so bad", then I realized I had to lead the gentryii in the right move order so there would be gaps for the roaches to move into and that was even worse than I originally thought.
1S1W: I cannot do this. I cannot hit the center plate without the gentryii releasing the east roach. Because of this, the room still seems impossible.
If the answer is "straighten the chain the correct way", then I'm going to call this a bad room.
2S: The lack of hot tiles gives a few more options, which is nice, but the room is still painful overall. I was just running around pressing plates and hoping I could survive, and then redoing large parts of the room when it turned out I couldn't.
2S1W: I see what I was overlooking now. I'd tried setting them up that way before, but I hadn't actually tried to get out.
So basically, I only found 1S1W, 2W, and 2S to be particularly troublesome. 2W would be significantly less painful if the final setup wasn't move order dependent, or if you could work with one gentryii at a time. 2S would need a total overhaul. 1S1W I just don't understand what to do, but even if the solution doesn't involve weird chain-straightening, it looks like it does and that's off-putting.
I Made a final version, addressing all comments as well as I could. If anyone still feels the desire to test: please feel free to do so. I will be welcoming comments and suggestions.
If I don't hear from you, I'll submit to HA in a couple of days.
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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.
) Will upload a new version later, when feedback from you has hopefully arrived.
