Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

I downloaded the new version and restored from the end of level 5 and still after I take the pickaxe in level 6 the special command stops working. I think this is a problem of my save data, I started a new game to see if it keeps doing this but it'll take a while before arriving there.

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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Hey Nuntar, it's definitely able to master this hold on the ATK path indeed. I ended up with 2242 ATK and 280 DEF, with 18711 HP to spare(could've done better by spending less at the next-to-last altar and using the lucky greckle/lucky blade combo earlier). What I'm wondering is: why doesn't the Gentryii trigger some kind of 'extra special' ending? I killed the Goblin before killing it (which was the easiest thing in the world, it only did 3000 damage to me), but all it did was drop a Hand Bomb, which I wouldn't know where to use. Did I miss anything?

Overall comments on the hold: now that I've gotten used to the transformation system and the hold is finished, I actually liked playing around with it a lot more than I did at the start. It's really important to keep track of when to transform what into what, which gives every playthrough a very unique outcome. Not to mention that the stats in this hold can vary much, MUCH more extremely than in other holds, which is a nice way to ensure flexibility and a great possibility for high scores!

Edit: by the way, going the DEF route seems a LOT harder to do. I can fight the Abbuw when it deals 0 damage to me, but my ATK is so low that other monsters can get in so many hits that they deal excessive damage because their ATK is so high. Furthermore, it's really annoying that there are 2 extra Trapdoor Spiders blocking my path to the Flippers from this side. At the second-to-last altar I can get a huge boost, but those Spiders both deal around 3K damage, not to mention the fact that I can't even hurt the guardians of the Flippers (on the ATK route those were the ones dealing 3K damage). That means it's going to be a proper pain to get to this altar, and I've already spent most of the resources on the Sixth Level, so there's not much space for me to wiggle around. Did you encounter the same problem during playtesting or am I missing something (just as with the Gentryii ending)?

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 11-27-2016 12:38 PM]

Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

Just posting here to let you know that the problem I had is no more (using the latest version and starting from the very beginning), I took the pickaxe, exited and everything worked fine.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Tetrahedron.txt (15.7 KB)
Downloaded 57 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's my walkthrough updated to 100% completion of the hold, killing the Gentryii, to show that this can even be done without taking anything from Level 1.

I've also done a playthrough of the ATK route (using Level 1) in which I've tried to optimise to the best of my ability. I didn't finish that far behind Midootje; my final stats are 31347 HP, 2115 ATK, 165 DEF (Gentryii does 22776 damage with the invisibility potion). It's interesting that it's possible to kill the Gentryii with only one potion, and tempting to add an extra bonus boss to reward completion of that challenge, but... I'll probably leave it as it is

I've written a walkthrough for the ATK-route playthrough, but I won't make it publicly available. If any of the HAs would like to see it, just let me know.

* * *

I thought of adding, as an ultimate bonus boss, an Adder with x22 stats, and replayed the last part of the hold with this in mind, aiming for just over the 2013 ATK threshold. I was able to get 75,000 HP, exhausting every resource available in the hold; but the Adder would take 78,000 with both potions and the Wyrmsmiter. Midootje would probably have succeeded.

In any case, I found this level of exact optimisation to be not particularly fun, and I don't want it to be required for a score checkpoint. Instead, I'll make the challenge to be killing the Gentryii with neither potion, which isn't so exact (at over 1992 ATK, the Gentryii does 60,800 damage, and further ATK thresholds are reachable). There won't be a score checkpoint for this; I'll just add some extra dialogue.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Tetrahedron.png (1.1 MB)
Downloaded 505 times.
License: Public Domain

After some more testing, I decided to rebalance the second half of Level 7 by lowering the rewards for killing most monsters, and replacing some monsters by harder types, to compensate for the player being likely to have higher stats than I originally expected. This version (attached to the initial post) also includes Kieran's Gentryii sprites.

I haven't yet tested whether it's still possible for an optimised run to kill the Gentryii, let alone whether it's possible to use just one or neither potion, so I will test those again before calling the hold finished.

EDIT: It certainly is still possible to kill the Gentryii with neither potion! It's not especially difficult (assuming good optimisation up to Level 7); I just needed to switch from amassing ATK to amassing HP earlier than in previous runs. Because it's not too hard, I'll go with the plan of adding additional dialogue for it rather than a more substantial reward. Now I'm satisfied that the hold is finished, as regards balancing decisions



EDIT: Confirmed that it's still possible to kill the Gentryii with one potion on the DEF route, and with both on my route that doesn't take anything from Level 1.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-19-2016 06:27 PM]

Von Wibble
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 35
Registered: 07-21-2008
IP: Logged

Just "completed" this - I used both potions for the Gentryii but noticed I could have killed it with 1 (and having killed the Goblin first I could have just ignored it).

General feedback

- This is possibly the most difficult hold I have played, the no back track and several options for atk/def/getting various accessories makes the first few levels tough -not to mention deciding whether to use/save alter use for later. I don't think this hold is for beginners, that's for sure - I'd say something like Unfriendly Islands remains the best option for that.

Level 3 especially feels tough, though I hate leaving gems behind and just couldn't see how to effectively kill that snake without using a bomb. And if I did have bombs and ignore the short sword I could instead get the goblin biter next level, or the shield, ...

I did feel that the difficulty decreased a lot once I got to level 5 with lots of keys in hand - still harder than a lot of holds though.

Interesting design throughout in that the keys are always used for a reward and never (iirc) to bypass monsters. In level 7 was it intentional that the sword space near the brained snakes can be used to disarm yourself and then use the Pickaxe to get the Oremite Shield? If so, great, as that is what I did...

Slightly strange for the levels in that the entrance isn't where you enter the level for many if any of them?

Overall view - I enjoyed the various challenges for the first few levels but felt that the last couple turned into a routine of kill monster to access a key and get a lot of rep (with vip card), get big key or orb, using rep if needed, use that key/orb plus rep for atk, rinse, repeat - a little too repetitive and a lot of back and forth to the reward rooms.

Early levels 10/10, later levels 7/10 for fun.

For brains, early levels 9/10, later levels 7/10 I'd say.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: 2023-01-30 (2).png (1.5 MB)
Downloaded 150 times.
License: Public Domain

I'd just like to reassure everyone that Tetrahedron isn't forgotten, and will be published after RPG 1.3 is out. The reason for waiting for 1.3 is this bug -- in some rooms on Seventh Level with six types of monster and 4-digit stats, it is possible to get error beeps on the latest stable patch, and I don't really want to release the hold while this is still happening.

Other than adding level intro texts and some quality of life features, I will not be making any more changes to the content; I consider this a (long since) finished hold now, and regardless of whether it lives up to my original intentions, I think it's fun and well-constructed enough that I don't want to mess around with it any more. I learned a lot from making this hold and I will put that into making the next one even better

One last silly challenge. Instead of taking either an ATK or a DEF path, I tried to keep my stats balanced throughout, which definitely makes the late game harder than if you stick to either path. In the end I was still able to kill the Gentryii with only one potion



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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 01-30-2023 11:30 PM]