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hyperme
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icon Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
If you have a sword with the 'No Enemy Defense' and 'Metal' behaviors, the player retains the piercing ability on oremites. This seems wrong.

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03-02-2016 at 09:55 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
hyperme wrote:
If you have a sword with the 'No Enemy Defense' and 'Metal' behaviors, the player retains the piercing ability on oremites. This seems wrong.
Agreed. The active combat ability of the weapon should not be applied when you are not wielding it. I'll plan to fix this.

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03-03-2016 at 09:25 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
A similar behavior was reported back in 2009 where lucky swords gave double GR bonus when disabled on oremites, and that report's verdict was feature rather than bug.

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03-05-2016 at 01:18 AM
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mrimer
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azb wrote:
A similar behavior was reported back in 2009 where lucky swords gave double GR bonus when disabled on oremites, and that report's verdict was feature rather than bug.
Ah...thanks for pointing this out. I don't remember that. Can you provide a link to that report? If that is the case, then I think it would be better for me to retract that statement. Whenever a weapon or armor is "X"ed out, I would expect all of its abilities and attributes are presently disabled.

Does anyone object to this decision?

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03-05-2016 at 06:02 AM
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D.Craven_0ne
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
I realy don't see what's the problem with the lucky blade, just 'cos its sheathed, You still have it and it's still lucky.

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03-05-2016 at 06:16 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
mrimer wrote:
azb wrote:
A similar behavior was reported back in 2009 where lucky swords gave double GR bonus when disabled on oremites, and that report's verdict was feature rather than bug.
Ah...thanks for pointing this out. I don't remember that. Can you provide a link to that report? If that is the case, then I think it would be better for me to retract that statement. Whenever a weapon or armor is "X"ed out, I would expect all of its abilities and attributes are presently disabled.

Does anyone object to this decision?
This will probably invalidate some late game scores for the second half of TT as less greckles will be available. Hard to know which ones though.
03-05-2016 at 08:03 AM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
Inactive equipment retaining its abilities isn't a good thing, IMO. Not only is an unexpected behavior from a player's perspective, I don't like it from a design perspective. It makes using custom equipment less useful, since it won't properly interact with oremites.

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03-05-2016 at 01:13 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
Thanks for calling out scorepoints. I'm tentatively okay with making that change to affect TT.
D.Craven_0ne wrote:
I realy don't see what's the problem with the lucky blade, just 'cos its sheathed, You still have it and it's still lucky.
This is probably the rationale I had back then, so that it would piggyback as a kind of "lucky coin" from TotS.

With our equipment design, it does feel confusing.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-05-2016 03:28 PM]
03-05-2016 at 03:27 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
kieranmillar wrote: This will probably invalidate some late game scores for the second half of TT as less greckles will be available. Hard to know which ones though.
Let's be honest here: this will affect all scores for the last five scorepoints where the player has made an effort to optimise, since the Lucky Blade is completely essential to optimisation. Many of those scores could be replicated by selling leftover keys to replace the lost greckles, but the spider won't be able to automate that, so the scores will just be lost. And what with DROD RPG being so old, this will mean most of those players won't come back and redo those scores, so newer players won't have a fair representation of scores to compete against.

For the record, here is the old bug report, though there's no discussion, it was just reported and then marked as "not a bug".

I think the Lucky Blade thing should be left, while fixing the No Enemy Defense thing. The two are not really parallel. No Enemy Defense is a feature of how you attack the enemy, so it makes sense that if you're not attacking with your current weapon, you can't use this feature. The Lucky Blade's property is passive. In hindsight it might have been better to make the decision the other way, but it's a borderline case, so I feel the weight of existing scores should be the deciding factor.

For new holds, it's easy enough to change the GR multiplier so the Lucky property is cancelled out on oremites.

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03-05-2016 at 06:36 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
Nuntar wrote:
kieranmillar wrote: This will probably invalidate some late game scores for the second half of TT as less greckles will be available. Hard to know which ones though.
Let's be honest here: this will affect all scores for the last five scorepoints where the player has made an effort to optimise, since the Lucky Blade is completely essential to optimisation. Many of those scores could be replicated by selling leftover keys to replace the lost greckles, but the spider won't be able to automate that, so the scores will just be lost. And what with DROD RPG being so old, this will mean most of those players won't come back and redo those scores, so newer players won't have a fair representation of scores to compete against.
You're right. My apologies -- I hadn't thought this through. I didn't mean to give the impression I was trying to be dishonest about this. If this change would break scores in TT, I don't want to change this. I'm not so worried about new players' experience as relates to older scores, but I wouldn't want to discard experienced players' hard work out of hand.
For the record, here is the old bug report, though there's no discussion, it was just reported and then marked as "not a bug".
Thanks. I see skell marked it, which is fine, but usually I like to post an explanation. I'll post there now.
I think the Lucky Blade thing should be left, while fixing the No Enemy Defense thing. The two are not really parallel. No Enemy Defense is a feature of how you attack the enemy, so it makes sense that if you're not attacking with your current weapon, you can't use this feature. The Lucky Blade's property is passive. In hindsight it might have been better to make the decision the other way, but it's a borderline case, so I feel the weight of existing scores should be the deciding factor.
I can agree with this line of thinking. This is probably what I had in mind originally, and since TT has been played for years with this mechanic, and it hasn't been perceived as a bug, then there's not a strong reason to change it now.
For new holds, it's easy enough to change the GR multiplier so the Lucky property is cancelled out on oremites.
Ah, you're saying if the architect cares, then the passive "lucky" property could be nullified if desired. That makes sense. Agreed.

The plan here now is to only make a change for Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 03-06-2016 12:38 AM]
03-06-2016 at 12:37 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
hyperme wrote:
If you have a sword with the 'No Enemy Defense' and 'Metal' behaviors, the player retains the piercing ability on oremites. This seems wrong.
Fixed in rev 266.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
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03-08-2016 at 01:05 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
mrimer wrote:
hyperme wrote:
If you have a sword with the 'No Enemy Defense' and 'Metal' behaviors, the player retains the piercing ability on oremites. This seems wrong.
Fixed in rev 266.
Can confirm fixed in 1.2.6.272 :thumbsup
03-09-2016 at 09:47 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
FYI can confirm this is also working correctly with disarm tokens too for non-metal swords. :thumbsup

Noticed one small partially related bug, the damage prediction does not correctly recognise that I cannot kill a wubba if I have 10 attack and a No Enemy Defense weapon but it is disabled (oremites or disarm token). It should say that my attack is too low, but instead tells me I will kill it taking no damage. This is probably because it has an attack of zero.

Testing with some other high def enemy with actual attack (like an aumtlich) will show "Death" instead. If I am using a sword without No Enemy Defense property but it is disabled, it will tell me I don't have enough attack to hurt it.

The bug here is that the damage predictor cannot recognise that I can be in a situation where I have a weapon with No Enemy Defense as my active weapon but I cannot actually deal any damage to the enemy (because the weapon is disabled).
03-09-2016 at 10:09 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (0)  
kieranmillar wrote:
...the damage prediction does not correctly recognise that I cannot kill a wubba if I have 10 attack and a No Enemy Defense weapon but it is disabled (oremites or disarm token). It should say that my attack is too low, but instead tells me I will kill it taking no damage. This is probably because it has an attack of zero.
Fixed the damage projection with disabled "No enemy defense" weapon in rev 275.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
03-14-2016 at 12:51 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
mrimer wrote: Fixed the damage projection with disabled "No enemy defense" weapon in rev 275.
Good news: this is fixed in 1.2.6.278 :thumbsup

Bad news: discovered another bug, when checking the battle screen when remotely viewing a room by clicking it on the minimap then pressing +, it does not recognise that I am wielding a sword with No Enemy Defense. (This time I'm talking about when the sword is enabled)

EDIT: There is more to this than first thought, it turrns out that when looking at the damage predictor when remotely viewing a room ignores that you have custom equipment at all, so they all get treated as having no abilities and 0 stats. It is OK with default equipment. You can use the test hold in this thread: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=40858 as a test case, go into the other room and look back at the previous room from the map and press +, it is as though your equipment has 0 stats.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-14-2016 09:25 PM]
03-14-2016 at 08:53 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Metal Equipment and No Enemy Defense (+1)  
Can confirm fixed in 1.2.6.283. :thumbsup
03-20-2016 at 04:37 PM
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