Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I worked out why 'monsters that need more than one hit to kill' aren't currently feasible: firstly, as the code stands, a monster that takes more than one hit to kill will kill Beethro as soon as Beethro tries to kill him; secondly, from a gameplay perspective it doesn't really add anything to the game; and thirdly, it makes no sense from a story perspective. Smitemasters train so that they can kill things with one hit to save time. Something that takes two hits to kill is an invitation to train until they take one hit to kill.

So, here's my idea, that addresses these problems:

The Twin is a monster with two halves, differently coloured. They each act as separate monsters. When Beethro hits one, it doesn't move for 5 turns, and an effect goes from one to the other (like a lightning bolt or something). When that happens, it revives, with different graphics (so you know), and moves as before. When you stab the other, both die.

Twins will move as roaches, with one exception: given a choice between moves that will move it closer to Beethro, it will choose the one that moves it closer to its twin.

Please comment and question, not just go *stamp*. I can do that.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

That sounds like a bet!

*Stamp*

But seriously, My first thought is what it will look like - it is two halves, so will it be two halves of a sphere? And how do they start in the room? Also, what would happen if you stabbed the same one twice?

Oh, and Matt...

Mattcrampy wrote: Smitemasters train so that they can kill things with one hit to save time. Something that takes two hits to kill is an invitation to train until they take one hit to kill.

Serpents?

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Oh, and Matt...

Mattcrampy wrote: Smitemasters train so that they can kill things with one hit to save time. Something that takes two hits to kill is an invitation to train until they take one hit to kill.

Serpents?

Aah, but I've worked a way around that. Remember, all this detail is Eighth story, not gameplay stuff.

Basically, serpent skin is used as less imaginative fantasy worlds would use dragonhide. It's a really tough leather that's a bugger to work with, and forget sewing unless you have a whole load of guys with a mallet driving the thread through. Very few people wear it, mostly rich armies, because, come on, you have to kill a bunch of serpents, and then drag the whole thing back up a mile or more of stairs, and then start making them. Most smitemasters don't worry about a 'keep serpent corpses' clause, anyways, because while kingy is happy to let the smitemasters take the roaches, they'll usually "commandeer" the serpent skin. And kingy ain't going to get it himself, now, is he?

When you drive them into a wall, they'll squish up and peel, driving their skin off their body until they're nude and flat. They're pretty much dead, as not having any skin is a big handicap in today's world.

Remember, from a story point of view every time you kill a roach its corpse is still there. From a game point of view, it's not. There will be differences, but that's because, even in a fake world, fun > realism.

And back on topic, the twins would look like separate creatures, just different colours. Not half of one creature.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Everything you create is flawlessly inconsistint...

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3261
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

It would be hard to know which monsters are twins if there are many of them in one room.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

wackhead_uk wrote:

Mattcrampy wrote: Smitemasters train so that they can kill things with one hit to save time. Something that takes two hits to kill is an invitation to train until they take one hit to kill.

Serpents?

Answering this from a more serious point of view:

What serpents and the suggested twins have in common is that in order for a monster to be such that it takes more than one hit to die, it needs to occupy more than one square. The difference betweens serpents (and tar) and twins is that twins may need more hits to die than squares which they occupy, since if you don't get the second twin on time, the first will revive.

I think this is an interesting way to allow monsters to require more than one hit, but I agree with Doom that there's potential for much confusion here.

The second problem is that this monster introduces a variable timer. All other timed monsters in DROD (queens, tar, serpent) use a global timer - you don't have to track individual monsters to know when something will happen. With the twin, there's a lot of potential for problems if it's on a 5-turn from stabbing clock.

Instead of making it two seperate monsters, maybe make it one monster keeping in mind Matt's original insight? How about:

The monster, let's call it an ITTTTOAN (I'm too tired to think of a name), acts like a normal roach until it's stabbed. When it's stabbed, it doesn't die, but instead changes color and behavior - it now acts like a roach queen. If you don't kill it by the next spawn cycle, it will change back.

This solves the problem of the monster coming back to kill you, and adds something to the game (though whether something worthwhile, I don't know). Note that it will only really be worth anything in conjunction with other monsters - if there's nothing to distract you you could always kill it in one turn. The fact that it's on a global clock will make it both easier to predict, but also add a tactical element since killing it shortly before the spawn cycle resets would have a different effect than killing it shortly afterwards.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Doom wrote:
It would be hard to know which monsters are twins if there are many of them in one room.

How about having them a different colour?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3261
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:

Doom wrote:
It would be hard to know which monsters are twins if there are many of them in one room.

How about having them a different colour?

How about having 20 twins and their other parts in a room. You need 20 colors for each twin pair and another 20 colors to know if they have been hit.
And if that's not enough you can always put 600 twins into one room

You need to count all possibilities.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

No, I meant have all "left sides" blue and all "right sides" purple or something like that.

If it's too confusing with more, perhaps we could right click on twins and see which other twin it's connected to, like an orb in the editor.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3261
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
No, I meant have all "left sides" blue and all "right sides" purple or something like that.

Mattcrampy wrote:
The Twin is a monster with two halves, differently coloured.

Sure, that's what I thought too but you still wouldn't know which of them are paired. You can play currently without mouse and I don't think it would be worth to add mouse requirement to play the game just for one monster.

I can't think of anything clever... Limit them to 1 per room? No. That's not good.

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Or just making them a bit of a boss, like the 'Neather. They would be very interesting if they could be scripted to do really complicated things.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I'm thinking you could left-click on them to see which ones were connected (we've got this behaviour going for some things in JtRH at the moment). The way they'd move would be a big giveaway unless they were all together, as they will attempt to move closer to their twin. Also, when you stab one, there's a visible arc over to the other one.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

If there are many of them, and they are moving, you'd have to click on all of them every turn. That'll be very unwieldy.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Unless there was only ever one in a room, which would be a bit boring, I admit. I suppose that we would just have to put up with it.

Mattcrampy wrote:
I'm thinking you could left-click on them to see which ones were connected (we've got this behaviour going for some things in JtRH at the moment).

I think you'd better stop talking now, Matt...don't want to expose any more things about JtRH, or I think Erik mighht take away the straw.


[Edited by wackhead_uk at Local Time:10-21-2004 at 12:43 PM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I think Erik and Mike will be cool with it. It's not exactly wet-your-pants exciting that you can click on things to see things that were there anyway.

But back on topic - maybe it would be easier if the two twins were joined by a visible rope-like line. At least you could see without much effort which twins are joined. Which suggests that maybe the twins can only go a certain distance away from each other, which opens up a whole host of puzzles where one of them can't move and you have to push the other around.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Would other monsters be able to cross the rope? and if they did, would it snap the rope and the twins would fly apart from the reduced tension and splat into a wall? Okay, that's not very productive.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Well, that could be good for monster manipulation puzzles. How about this - normal monsters can't cross, so you might be trying to form a blockade, but serpents will break the rope and kill both.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
IP: Logged

Hehe... I kinda like the rope thing...

It'd definatly be interesting when the live one is attached to the already hit one and trying to get away.

Like a dog on a leash.

[Edited by Zmann at Local Time:10-21-2004 at 11:50 PM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I'm thinking for the sake of clarity that ropes can go over walls and that other monsters can step in between them.

Let's not get too complex. It's a rope. It's not exactly a big obstacle.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

But still, if I wanted 100 pairs of twins, then we'd have 100 "ropes" going across the screen. It may be quite visually interesting, but the "ropes" may obscure other things and get a bit annoying after a while.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Simple solution - only have one twin placeable in each room

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3261
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

wackhead_uk wrote:
Simple solution - only have one twin placeable in each room

But that's not fun! It's too limited. What if there could be only one roach in a room? (There's no limitations in that but if)

It's up to Architect how he uses them. The ropes can create interesting patterns when placed correctly and restricted Twins' movement a little.

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

There can only ever be one Neather in a room, unless you repeatedly copy and paste the Neather that is.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

How about this - all twins are connected to each other by ropes, so that they are all one creature. Then you have to strike each part to kill it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
How about this - all twins are connected to each other by ropes, so that they are all one creature. Then you have to strike each part to kill it.

Uh... isn't this the exact same thing we just said?

AlefBet
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 979
Registered: 07-16-2003
IP: Logged

wackhead_uk wrote:
There can only ever be one Neather in a room, unless you repeatedly copy and paste the Neather that is.

To be honest, the way the 'Neather is handled is a hack. If DROD had originally been designed with a user-accessible level editor in mind, I expect the 'Neather wouldn't have been created at all. And if it had been, I would bet that it would have been designed more generally and allowed more than one in a room. Discounting the 'Neather, no other elements are limited to one to a room, even elements where it might make sense like brains or tar mothers.

I believe it weakens a proposed room element to say "too many of these things can be nasty. Let's make it so you can only have one." It makes me go the next step and ask "why not zero? It's a lot easier to program."

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 352
Registered: 06-21-2004
IP: Logged

Well it wasnt me who copied the Neather...

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Zmann wrote:

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
How about this - all twins are connected to each other by ropes, so that they are all one creature. Then you have to strike each part to kill it.

Uh... isn't this the exact same thing we just said?

Yes, but it's expanding on the idea. I'm saying that you could place as many of the halves as you wanted, but they'd all be the same monster. If you put three they would be thirds. If you put four they would be quarters. All must be hit with a sword before the monster dies.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Yes, but it's expanding on the idea. I'm saying that you could place as many of the halves as you wanted, but they'd all be the same monster. If you put three they would be thirds. If you put four they would be quarters. All must be hit with a sword before the monster dies.

Ah, now I get what you're saying. Before you said twins, which suggested that there were only two connected at a time.