blorx1
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File: Kegs on Swords.hold (966 bytes)
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This is a bit unintuitive, so I'm posting it here.

If you push a keg onto a sword, the keg decides to explode, but it doesn't do so until after all monsters have moved. Some parts of this make sense other do not.

It would be more intuitive if the keg exploded as soon as it entered the sword.

Here is a hold with various things involving this. Move west to see what I mean.

The worst offender is the way this works with pits. While it is intuitive for swords to blow up kegs over pits, because it explodes after monsters move, it means the keg falls very late in the turn despite the fact that most pushed objects fall as soon as the pusher's turn is over.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 11-03-2014 05:29 AM]

skell
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Intended behavior. quote from development board:

mrimer wrote:

Schik wrote:
If you push a powder keg into an enemy (or their sword) it blows up, but you don't, despite being right next to it. Is this intentional? I didn't see anything like that on a quick browse through this thread.

Edit: I think it's just when you push it onto a sword.

Thanks, fixed by doing the following:

Whenever a powder keg is pushed onto a sword, instead of exploding it immediately, it will be added into a set. Then, at two points during the turn (i.e., 1: after the player actually moves to the new coordinates, and 2: after the monsters move), any outstanding powder keg stabs will be exploded simultaneously.

In my opinion it's a no-win situation. If we keep it as is, it'll forever be a little bit weird. If we make it that explosion are calculate after each entity finishes moving we might have similar problem as with pressure plates, which react in the middle of monster movement and suddenly movement order becomes very important.

There is also a solution where kegs explode after everything moves and they will explode ONLY if the weapon is still on their tile - this solution is less dependent on the movement order.

I am removing this from the scope of 5.0.2 and will ping Mike to take a look and give his opinion.

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blorx1
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I played around with this again and realized that if you push a keg onto a mimic's sword and he moves away, it can kill nothing, but still detonate, which is a really strange behavior.

I do agree that the implementation is consistent with how it is intended to be, but it does produce some unintuitive behaviors.

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mrimer
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Wow, this is a hard one to get right. Skell's idea of exploding the kegs that are being stabbed with weapons only if the weapon is still on the keg when it's time to process the keg explosion is an intriguing one. I can't foresee whether that change would have any potentially negative side effects. I'm okay in principle with modifying the current behavior if we can come up with something that's unilaterally better.

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blorx1
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I think destroying the keg immediately is the best solution.

First, it seems more intuitive to me (and I don't really care if move order confuses people).

The bigger reason is that it appears to be more consistent with the current behavior for mirrors. At the moment, if you push a mirror into a sword it is destroyed before anything else moves (I tested this with an eye). Mirrors have been around long enough that I wouldn't change them, so presumably we should change kegs to be more like mirrors.

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skell
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Bringing this back to forum attention.

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Dragon Fogel
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I agree with blorx's take - do it immediately after the pushing entity finishes moving. Any weirdness that can be produced through move order is going to be less weird than secondary effects of other options.

Xindaris
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I'm unclear on whether this is related, but I know for a fact that I've generally understood (and used as part of puzzle solutions) that if a player (or whatever) equipped with a dagger moves to body-push a mirror/keg toward shallow water, the object will always fall into the water and turn to stepping stone rather than exploding from the "dagger stab". I'm fairly invested in that behavior personally, but again, unclear if that's part of what's at issue? Maybe not, since this is true for both mirror and keg.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-18-2020 11:34 PM]

Nuntar
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That behaviour doesn't require a dagger -- it also works if you move from shallow water to land, in the same move pushing a keg or mirror onto another tile of shallow water.

Because it doesn't require any 5.0 elements, it's been around for a while and has definitely been used in many puzzles.

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skell
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Modern skell agrees that instantly exploding makes most sense. Will it affect hundreds of rooms?

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Dragon Fogel
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I'm not even sure what sort of rooms it would affect if it were changed. I only remember a small number of rooms where pushing a keg into a weapon was even important.

This is not counting the behavior Xindaris describes when pushing something into shallow water. Does that have any connection to this behavior? My guess is no, but it would be nice to clarify so we know whether to include that in the discussion.

TFMurphy
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Xindaris wrote:
I'm unclear on whether this is related, but I know for a fact that I've generally understood (and used as part of puzzle solutions) that if a player (or whatever) equipped with a dagger moves to body-push a mirror/keg toward shallow water, the object will always fall into the water and turn to stepping stone rather than exploding from the "dagger stab". I'm fairly invested in that behavior personally, but again, unclear if that's part of what's at issue? Maybe not, since this is true for both mirror and keg.

Not actually related. If an entity body-pushes an object, it gets the chance to interact with the target square before the entity's own weapon takes effect. As an example, you can arrange to have your sword rest on a mirror, then push in the direction of the mirror, and if there is pit/shallow water there, the mirror will fall/sink before it is smashed.

What *would* be related slightly to this behaviour is if this pit/water tile was covered by a Decoy's sword. In that case, the mirror would smash before it falls/sinks. The weapon isn't moving, so we give it a chance to interact with the mirror before the mirror can fall.



However, this topic is explicitly about when a keg should explode when pushed into a stationary weapon. My opinion is that this should happen instantly as well, for many of the reasons already brought up in this thread, and because that's how Fegundos work too... and also because if a Mimic moved its sword into a keg (rather than pushing it with its body into a Decoy's sword), the keg would also blow up instantly.

Actually, it's even a bit worse than that.

Q...   Q = Queen
..kM   M = Mimic
....   k = Keg with Mimic sword on top

In this situation, if I move west, the Mimic pushes the keg into range of the queen, it blows up, and the queen dies.

But if there's a Decoy sword in the space where the keg is pushed to, the keg still blows up, but the Queen gets to escape before it does so.



So, yeah. Instantaneous explosions, please ^_^ (Or at least immediately after the current moving entity's turn, which seems like was Schik's original concern.)

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 10-19-2020 12:44 AM]

skell
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PR

Changed the behavior so that stabbed-by-pushing kegs are exploded after player moves and after each monster moves. Which means if player pushes a keg into someone else's sword, the keg will explode as soon as player's movement is finished. Ditto for other monsters.

I think it feels much more natural and predictable and intuitive.

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kieranmillar
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Can confirm in 5.1.1.alpha.2020-10-29 that pushing a keg into the sword of an entity that had its move earlier in the turn results in the keg exploding straight away.