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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Rodents of unusual size (One level hold on lemmings)
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
Tiny bump!

I finally managed to update this and I think we are pretty close to the end, even if a dozen rooms remain to be tested I'm pretty confident that they are pretty solid.
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Click here to view the secret text



Chaco, thanks a lot for all those suggestions, I applied almost all of them (though I couldn't really use lighting since the luminosity it's at his peak).

What's new:
1N2E: I spent ages trying to fix the US until I found out that it wasn't possible, so I totally changed the room though the concept is the same, it should be more challenging.
5N2W - 9N4W - 6N2W: Changed them a bit.


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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 07-06-2016 03:56 PM]
07-06-2016 at 03:55 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
quote:
[Post Deleted] Nuntar wrote:
There are more in 2N2W and 2E.



Ok, I modified this and I also added a challenge at 2N1E; as it stands now it works fine, but I'm pretty sure it can be scripted more efficiently.
So, out of curiosity, how would you script it without changing mirrors location?

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07-07-2016 at 03:25 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
quote:
Red-XIII wrote: So, out of curiosity, how would you script it without changing mirrors location?

  Set var "Mirrors" = 0
Label loop
  If ... 
        Wait for item Mirror,18,13,18,13
     If ... 
           Wait for item Mirror,18,15,18,15
        Wait 0
        Go to loop
     If End 
  If End 
  Set var "Mirrors" = 1


It could do with a better name than "Optimizer", which (a) is really generic, and (b) in DROD normally refers to optimising turncount. How about something like "With Less Reflection"?

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 07-07-2016 05:36 PM]
07-07-2016 at 05:35 PM
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Red-XIII
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Tiny bump.

How's the testing going? I played it myself once more and I believe this is almost ready to be promoted, any thoughts?

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08-04-2016 at 10:06 AM
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Not sure if you sent it to HA yet. I will apologize for not giving much feedback after my initial post. This hold is super hard! I'd say at least a solid 8 brains, though there are some more approachable rooms. The only room I've been able to solve since my last post is 2N4W which took me at least an hour. I had everything except for the last little linchpin for quite a while, but it took me forever to get the final bit (let's just say I would have solved it much quicker had they been pushing mirrors instead). I've also made a bit of progress with 3N, but not enough to say I'm confident that I'm close to the solution. I haven't run into anything that looks like an issue that needs changing though. I wouldn't want you to wait for me to send this off since I'll likely take quite a while to finish it! Super fun hold though.

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08-15-2016 at 09:09 AM
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LeoS
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
Hi Red-XII -

I spent much of the past week or so revisiting this hold so I've attached a new set of demos for everything I could solve. Missing 3 required rooms, a few of the secrets and some of that upper ring.

Overall, I find this to be a very challenging and really satisfying hold! As I mentioned to you previously, completing each room made me a little wistful because for me that meant there was one less lemming puzzle to solve in the universe...

Lotsa comments, below:
Click here to view the secret text


Cheers, hope this helps!
08-16-2016 at 01:17 AM
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Red-XIII
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No, I didn't send this to HA yet, as I was sure there were several issues and US.
I'll try to submit another version as soon as possible, meanwhile here's comments for LeoS.

You used slighlty different solutions for A LOT of rooms, and I loved all of them and I won't change them, since the main points of the room were the same.

1N3W: I think I screw up with copying things from my old pc, as I'm sure I scripted this months ago. Will be fixed in the next version.
1W: I don't get it, I did put a force in the NE corner so that you can backtrack to entrance and then to 1N.
2N2W: There's still an US here, probably the hardest to fix.
3N5W: Yes they are.
4N & 4N5W: Total different solutions from mine, loved them and won't change them.
4N1W: Tiny US in the first part, easy to fix.
6N2W: I don't think is an issue since there's no backtracking problem.
4N2E: Another US. About checkpoints, you can only move in 2 squares, and one of them is a checkpoint, I think it's ok, lemmings can't trigger checkpoints.
It appears you are having problems in the rooms I hoped to be hard, so it's a good thing. Let me know if you want some hints.

Once again, thank you for your work, this will greatly improve the quality of the hold!

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08-16-2016 at 10:42 AM
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Red-XIII
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Here's another update.

4N2E, 2N2W and 4N1W fixed.

1N3W: I want to add another condition to the challenge (striking the orb at 33,15) but I don't know how to do it.

In general, how do I script a challenge depending on 2 or more variables?

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08-17-2016 at 04:29 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
quote:
Red-XIII wrote: In general, how do I script a challenge depending on 2 or more variables?

There are various ways to do this, depending on exactly what the condition is. In this case, you want to award the challenge only if the orb (33,15) has ever been hit. Since this activates a force arrow and nothing deactivates it, you can just check whether the force arrow is active when you award the challenge:

  Wait for clean room 
  If ... 
        Wait until var "Bent" = 0
     If ... 
           Wait for item Force arrow (east),17,26,17,26
        Challenge completed Gentryii ruler
     If End 
  If End 
  End 


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08-17-2016 at 05:09 PM
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Red-XIII
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Thank you very much, what I needed to know is that you can use many "if" to add more conditions to the challenge.

1N3W now should work fine. This room is driving me crazy.

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08-17-2016 at 07:02 PM
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blorx1
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I don't know when you plan to publish, but if you give me about a week (maybe just this weekend) I can probably get through this hold and give some commentary or at least a big pile of demos to catch some US's if any are left.

Edit: I definitely broke at least one room, so I can post stuff whenever or we can wait, since I play things pretty fast.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 08-21-2016 05:59 AM]
08-21-2016 at 04:09 AM
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Red-XIII
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quote:
blorx1 wrote:
I don't know when you plan to publish, but if you give me about a week (maybe just this weekend) I can probably get through this hold and give some commentary or at least a big pile of demos to catch some US's if any are left.

Edit: I definitely broke at least one room, so I can post stuff whenever or we can wait, since I play things pretty fast.




I was planning on sending this to HA next week but I have no rush at all, I'm glad you're playing this and I'm really interested in seeing your demos.

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08-21-2016 at 07:40 AM
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blorx1
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File: Rodents of unusual size blorx demos.demo (25.8 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
I hadn't quite realized how long this was, so I'm posting comments for what I've played right now so you have more time to fix stuff.

Here's some comments:
Click here to view the secret text


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08-22-2016 at 03:58 AM
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Red-XIII
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quote:
blorx1 wrote:
I hadn't quite realized how long this was, so I'm posting comments for what I've played right now so you have more time to fix stuff.

Here's some comments:
Click here to view the secret text



Wow, you used so many different solutions, I liked them a lot and I won't change all of them, mainly because it wouldn't be a funny hold if every room have only one, fiddly solution.

1N1W: I tried a lot to do this, but I never achieved it so I thought it was impossible. Well, you proved me wrong, I added a challenge for your solution.
2W: That's not intended at all, terrific solution once again. I won't change it, since it's way more harder than the inteded solution.
3W: Well, I must thank you. This room was one of the first I built 2 years ago and the solution I had in mind was yours, but after 1 year of pause I forgot it, and I believed that the solution the other testers found was the intended one. I added a challenge for the original solution, which is way harder than the other one.
1N3W: I'm not sure what's the problem in the challenge and what I should do to fix it. Meanwhile I fixed an US.
2N3W: I wouldn't call it broken since you didn't use a trivial solution. I knew that there were lots of solution for this, but I added a challenge where maybe you need to use a solution similar to the one I used.
3N4W: Cool, didn't know it was possible like this, but it's still an US, so I fixed it.
2N4W: I made it impossible to clear the room from the South, though I don't think it's a big problem.
1N4W: I was afraid this was too fiddly, hope it wasn't frustating. You used a similar solution to mine, though yours is less efficient.
4N4W: The impossible timing it's intended, and I see why you aren't fully satisfied with the room, but I don't know how to fix it, since other testers did this like I intended and were ok with that.
3N5W: It looks like there are tons of solutions here, trivial and non trivial. I won't change them all but I tried to fix some of them, so that my solution for the challenge is the only one avaible.

I tried using different floors for force arrows but it doesn't look nice IMO. Also, the final rooms have lots of arrows, so the room would look a mess.

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08-22-2016 at 12:01 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
I could probably write a fix for the scripted challenge in 1N3W.

Unfortunately the way Nuntar implemented the original challenge without the additional check isn't what I'd do and I don't think it'd be foolproof to just add a wait for player at 37,11 because his implementation isn't word for word equivalent to the scroll and so it can be tricked pretty easily.

I'll post something with a fix later tonight, but for now here's the demo that broke the challenge (if it didn't show up in my demo pack). Note that I step on the bridge and then get the challenge despite being in a situation where I wouldn't be able to leave the room.

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08-22-2016 at 02:49 PM
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Red-XIII
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quote:
blorx1 wrote:
I could probably write a fix for the scripted challenge in 1N3W.

Unfortunately the way Nuntar implemented the original challenge without the additional check isn't what I'd do and I don't think it'd be foolproof to just add a wait for player at 37,11 because his implementation isn't word for word equivalent to the scroll and so it can be tricked pretty easily.

I'll post something with a fix later tonight, but for now here's the demo that broke the challenge (if it didn't show up in my demo pack). Note that I step on the bridge and then get the challenge despite being in a situation where I wouldn't be able to leave the room.


I already saw that demo, I and fixed the US this morning by adding a force arrow. All other solutions are fine. By the way, stepping on the bridge only closes the door, it's not supposed to block you in if you don't go for the challenge.
Also, I don't think challenge implementation must be equal word for word to the scroll, you just have to avoid misunderstanding.

About scripting this challenge, I'm not sure what the problem is. The only thing that now came in my mind is that if you clear the room, exit and then re-enter it and doing something you get the challenge (I guess I have to try all of them for safety but since the scripts begin with "wait for clean room" and the room can't be cleared since it's already cleared, the script can't go on so you can't get the challenge, right?).

Another question, since I definitely forgot it, it doesn't matter if I get the challenge, to make it appear on the challenge list in-game you must exit the room right?

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08-22-2016 at 04:08 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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No, challenges will appear on the list even if you don't exit the room afterwards. In fact, there's at least one challenge I know of that you can't exit the room after getting.

Click here to view the secret text

08-22-2016 at 04:42 PM
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Red-XIII
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quote:
Dragon Fogel wrote:
No, challenges will appear on the list even if you don't exit the room afterwards. In fact, there's at least one challenge I know of that you can't exit the room after getting.

Click here to view the secret text



I see, good to know, this means that you must be careful when you build the room, unless there's a way to script it so that you get awarded when you change room. Since I fixed the US this shouldn't be the case.

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08-22-2016 at 05:41 PM
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blorx1
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The issue with the challenge in that demo I posted is that when I kill the eye and get ready to leave: I am in a state where I would be unable to leave the room. Basically it means that I can step on the bridge and still complete the challenge, which I assume is 100% unintended. I haven't looked at the updated version, so that might have changed, but without the scripting update I'm suggesting you'll probably have that issue no matter what you do to fix things.

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08-22-2016 at 10:13 PM
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blorx1
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File: Rodents of unusual size blorx demos.demo (34.6 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Here's a demo pack and comments for conquering the rest of the hold. I haven't gone through the changed rooms to see if things are still breakable, but I'll do that next when I get a chance.

Edit: Forgot my comments:
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by blorx1 at 08-25-2016 04:21 AM]
08-25-2016 at 04:03 AM
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Red-XIII
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Once again, so many US, thank you. New version in the first post.

4N: Your solution is the last part of mine, I didn't realize that you needed only one mirror, it looks like there are several solutions here, but I won't change it.
4N2E: Definitely didn't see that coming. Hopefully fixed.
1N2E: Should be fixed.
2E: Can't believe I didn't thought about this, fixed.
3N1W: The room is about kegs and how to use the lemming to kill the brains, though I can see that this is a different room compared to others.
3N2W: I know this isn't an hard room, but I wanted to have a room like this in the hold.
2N2E: You broke my challenge, at this point the only thing I can do is asking if it's possible to script the challenge "Kill the lemmings one by one" which means you are not allowed to kill two lemmings at the same time. If it's possible to script I have no idea how.
6N2W: Didn't fix it yet since I have no idea how to enforce my solution :(

7N1W: I found out this quirk while building this room and I think it's fascinating, but I also know that this can be considered a bug, so I'm definitely willing to change it, I just wanted to wait for someone to find it by itself to see its reaction.


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08-25-2016 at 10:50 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
Entrance, fourth scroll: "didn't arrived" -> "haven't arrived"

Seventh scroll: "blu" -> "blue"

Regarding the turn 0 behaviour, I mostly agree with blorx. In fact this hasn't been discussed for EP yet, and hasn't come up in the lemmings level I'm building, but if I had been aware of it, I would have tweaked the script to avoid it. In general, for EP we're taking a much harder line on "anything that looks like a monster should act like a monster", including temporal aumtlich responding to timeclones, lemmings being unable to walk on tunnels except to kill a target, etc. Other holds don't necessarily do that -- bomber50 is working on Elemental Fun, an "introduce elements one by one" hold similar to EP, and his lemmings level includes a puzzle based on the fact that lemmings can freely walk on tunnels. For your hold, it's entirely up to you whether to keep the script exactly as-is or vary it. My only concern is that it may be a bit unfair to require the player to come up with this quirk by themselves -- then again, it's an unrequired room.

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08-25-2016 at 02:12 PM
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blorx1
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quote:
Red-XIII wrote:
7N1W: I found out this quirk while building this room and I think it's fascinating, but I also know that this can be considered a bug, so I'm definitely willing to change it, I just wanted to wait for someone to find it by itself to see its reaction.



I'd never actually found it myself, I remember hearing it in chat. Obviously because lemmings are scripted, it's entirely possible for you to introduce this behavior and not have it be affected by anyone else's opinion of what is or isn't a bug, but bear in mind that others who want to change it for their versions of the script may do so and confuse players.

Overall I'm not opposed to this behavior being in the hold, but I think including a scroll notifying the player that odd behavior is in play and having a hint that explains this trick in particular will help to reduce issues. Notifying the player of how the lemming will behave in this particular room also alleviates the bulk of the issues that stem from having multiple versions of a script floating around. The room in question seems like it has a legitimate puzzle, so you could either warn the player or change the script and tweak the puzzle so that it still works without abusing the strange behavior.

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08-26-2016 at 03:58 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
And postmastered! Here's a demo set with the last couple rooms that I hadn't finished and some more comments.

Click here to view the secret text


I'll go through all the changes you've made and see if anything is still broken after that in my next post.

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08-26-2016 at 05:24 AM
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Red-XIII
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New version in the first post.

7N1W: Since you seem to be ok with it I simply added a scroll to explain that the room uses a special quirk of the lemming and that you might not find it in other lemming holds.
9N4W: I could use a script like in 4N5W to prevent this but then the room would be trivial, I also added a challenge here since no one used my solution.
7N2W, 7N3W: Added checkpoints.
Entrance: Fixed scrolls.

What's left to do (for now):

- Fix 6N2W and possibly 2N2W.
- Replay broken rooms and new challenges.
- Fix script challenge in 1W
- Possibly scripting a challenge for 2N2E

About these last two, I have no idea how to do them.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 08-26-2016 10:00 AM]
08-26-2016 at 09:56 AM
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blorx1
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More notes:
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08-26-2016 at 10:11 PM
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Red-XIII
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New update.

6N2W: Fixed, though I slightly changed the room.
2N2W: Maybe it's fixed, now you should need the bent-tail lemming to kill the lemming if you want to access secret room.
2N3W: Fixed.
2E: Fixed.
3N4W: Tried another thing to enforce my challenge solution, fixed?

What's left to do:

- Fix script challenge in 1W (I'm not sure what I should do)
- Possibly scripting a challenge for 2N2E (is it possible to script it?)
- Replay broken rooms and new challenges.

9N1W has green doors to prevent backtracking issues, I remember that when I playtested the final part of the hold I could easily get trapped, so I alternated the doors in some rooms.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 08-30-2016 09:45 AM]
08-30-2016 at 09:42 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
I might make my comments as separate posts so I don't forget.

6N2W is still breakable.

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09-04-2016 at 12:16 AM
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blorx1
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File: Rous Lemmingland 2N2W Victory.demo (14.2 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
I also have no clue what you mean by using the bent tail lemming to kill the lemming, since the only lemming power that I see being relevant is token hitting, but that doesn't seem helpful here since a switched bent lemming hasn't been able to do anything for me.

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09-04-2016 at 12:18 AM
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blorx1
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File: Rous Lemmingland 2E Victory.demo (14.3 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
2N3W: My demo still works I don't know what changed.

2E: This is the most ridiculous way to break the room, but it's almost certainly easier than the original solution.

Edit: Another way to do this approach for 2E is to hit a plate with the mimic lemming and then step on the plate next yourself. (It also allows the plates to be done without help from decoys).

3N4W: Fixed (I put a golem at 11,26) I figured this would be necessary since I messed with it when first trying to solve the room and managed to put a golem there, but found my alt solution first.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 09-04-2016 12:43 AM]
09-04-2016 at 12:26 AM
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