disoriented
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File: tunnel_move_mirror.png (25 KB)
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Screenshot included before and after Beethro moves through a tunnel. When he arrives at the other end, the mirror moves west. This behavior seems odd.



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[Last edited by disoriented at 05-17-2014 05:40 AM]

azb
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I'm pretty sure what is happening is the player moves west via tunnel but the mirror treats it as a regular west move without recocgnizing the tunnel. Therefore the mirror is pushed. Most likely not a bug.

Moo
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That would be the most obvious explanation for what was described... But doesn't seem sensible, to me at least. If anything, you would be "going east" while emerging from that tunnel.
But really, appearing from a tunnel should be "directionless" and just "teleport" you to the destination, as if you had for example started the room on that square. So yes, I'd say bug.

Kwerulous
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File: pic1.png (41.8 KB)
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License: Public Domain

I agree with Moo. When Beethro moves through a tunnel he is underground, right? Also, if the behaviour isn't a bug, then surely we'd expect something similar to happen in this situation:



But if you try it, the mirror stays put.

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[Last edited by Kwerulous at 05-17-2014 02:03 PM]

PMIT
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I have no idea how this is coded into the game, but I fear that simply turning tunnels into teleports with no directional influence could potentially break some rooms entirely and possibly many more demos since using a tunnel (to another tunnel) will cause any mimics to move in the direction of the tunnel you used. If that's not an issue, and there aren't any others, I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

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The spitemaster
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I disagree. If you go through the tunnel what direction does the mimics move. The game treats it as if you moved into the end of the tunnel from the direction of travel. And the only two options is that the mirror breaks or moves in the direction of travel. I don't really think it should break, so I agree with the move.

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bwross
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There are two other options in this case that make sense. One is that the sword is just placed over the mirror without breaking it. The other is that the mirror is pushed directly east, because that's the direction leading out of this tunnel (even though the direction of the tunnel is east to west, it apparently turns around before coming out)... realistically, this would be more correct than pushing the mirror like Beethro exited going west.

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[Last edited by bwross at 05-17-2014 03:48 PM]

Tamsk
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The first option is the one that appeals to me (ending up sword-over-mirror). The way I'd think about tunnel movement is that Beethro leaves his starting square travelling west (which is what mimics care about copying), but should arrive at his destination square by direct appearance (with the same effects as, say, placing a clone there, if clones could be placed on tunnels). Currently it appears that the game treats him as arriving in the direction he left in, which doesn't make sense with tunnel exits facing other ways.

bomber50
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Tamsk wrote:
The first option is the one that appeals to me (ending up sword-over-mirror). The way I'd think about tunnel movement is that Beethro leaves his starting square travelling west (which is what mimics care about copying), but should arrive at his destination square by direct appearance (with the same effects as, say, placing a clone there, if clones could be placed on tunnels). Currently it appears that the game treats him as arriving in the direction he left in, which doesn't make sense with tunnel exits facing other ways.

This makes perfect sense to me, however. The tunnel graphics make it appear that Beethro is not moving entirely vertical out of the tunnel, but rather at a slant. Thus, while moving his sword, he ends up pushing it a square, just like if he wasn't using a tunnel.

On a side note, there's also the problem that some rooms may be broken if this behaviour is changed.

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[Last edited by bomber50 at 05-17-2014 05:16 PM]

bomber50
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Kwerulous wrote:
I agree with Moo. When Beethro moves through a tunnel he is underground, right? Also, if the behaviour isn't a bug, then surely we'd expect something similar to happen in this situation:



But if you try it, the mirror stays put.

Well, in this situation, he would be underground while going through the tunnel. So his sword could not possibly go through the tunnel walls.

Kwerulous
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bomber50 wrote:
Well, in this situation, he would be underground while going through the tunnel. So his sword could not possibly go through the tunnel walls.

Yet, if you place the mirror three spots to the east, it can?

I note another inconsistency - place the mirror just NW of the tunnel in the setup in my picture; if your sword points N and you go through the tunnel (west-east) the mirror stays put. If you face NW, the mirror moves as Beethro arrives at the east tunnel (as disoriented described originally).

Moo
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Appearing sword-over-mirror is the only logical result... As for breaking demos and rooms... Only rooms with both mirrors and tunnels would need to have their demos rechecked, and if there's still any valid winning demos left after any are removed, the room isn't broken... So shouldn't be too hard to verify..

mrimer
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disoriented wrote:
Screenshot included before and after Beethro moves through a tunnel. When he arrives at the other end, the mirror moves west. This behavior seems odd.

I can see how this behavior may seem odd, but it's working as designed. I'm fine with leaving it as-is.

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Moo
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Is that "working as designed" really meaning "we decided this is how it should work before the mirrors were added" (they did come after tunnels, right?)... In which case... Why?

mrimer
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Yes, tunnels were added in 2.0. Mirrors were added in 3.0. No, I don't quite mean that we decided this is how is should work before mirrors were added. I'm saying that when we added mirrors in 3.0, the dev team agreed that mirror pushes can operate based on the player movement both when moving through tunnels, as well as not moving through tunnels. I can't recall the exact reasons why we settled on this particular behavior. In its defense, it's been in the engine for seven (probably even eight) years now. If this is the first time someone has had an issue with it, then that lends credence to the idea that it has been working fine for architects during that time.

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.