The spitemaster
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Now whenever you leave a room after stepping on a disarm token you return to a sworded state when reentering the room. This was something that changed in the game from before and is inconsistent with RPG in that nothing is changed when you leave a room.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-08-2016 02:59 PM]

mrimer
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Thanks for reporting this. Do you happen to know whether this issue is a new bug in build 57, or was it also present in earlier builds of 1.2?

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

TFMurphy
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It's how Disarm Tokens have always worked in DROD RPG. Comparing it to other tokens, I suppose there is a small incongruity: Vision Tokens, for instance, stay active in that room once triggered. The Disarm Token itself stays triggered too, it's just that Tendry resets to being sworded upon re-entering the room, regardless of the state of current Disarm Tokens. [this is a room load bug -- mrimer]

So there are three ways this could be approached.

1) Disarm Tokens affect Tendry globally. Once one has been activated, Tendry is disarmed until he touches another one. All Disarm Tokens should reflect the state of Tendry being armed or disarmed.

2) Disarm Tokens only affect the current room. If Tendry leaves the room, he regains his sword, but if he returns, the presence of an activated Disarm Token in the room automatically disarms him again, until the Token is turned off. Tendry should reflect the state of any Disarm Token in the room. [this is the intended behavior -- mrimer]

3) Disarm Tokens only last until you leave the room (currently used logic). When re-entering a room, Disarm Tokens should be reset to being untriggered (this is not currently done, but it's more a visual change than a logic change).

===

Of those options, I really don't like (1). (2) has some merit, but I'm unsure how it'll affect published holds. (3) has no logic changes, but it does leave Disarm Tokens to feel different from other tokens.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-08-2016 02:58 PM]

kieranmillar
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I decided to use map.php to check every published hold for disarm tokens (there aren't that many holds, so it didn't take long) and as far as I can tell there are only 5 rooms in published holds that actually have a disarm token in them, they aren't very popular.

If you're curious, these rooms are:
*Cludo's dungeon : Floor one : 1 North
*Hold Anonymous : Third level : 2 South, 1 East
*Nameless Fortress : The Broken Stairwell : 3 South, 1 East
*Unfriendly Islands : Islands : 2 South, 2 East
*Unfriendly Islands : Islands : 3 South, 2 East

Anyway I like changing disarm token to work like point 2) in TFMurphy's post above as it's consistent with how all other tokens work in RPG and makes intuitive sense to me, that if the player enters a room with an active disarm token he will lose the ability to use his weapon in that room until it is changed back.

There are two major consequences of changing this behaviour that I can think of:

1) If a room had two separate paths in it, and a disarm token was in one but inaccessible in the other, then after this change you could be disarmed in the latter path whereas you could not before. However none of the rooms in published holds have this situation in them.

2) A token that can only be triggered one-way to ensure you have no sword in an area could result in you being allowed to have a sword on a second pass through if you can re-enter the room swordless. The Nameless Fortress room linked above actually DOES have this situation in it, I think, although I've not played through this hold yet and so I'm only going by the image and can't accurately assess the impact it would have (makes greckle farming easier possibly). However this situation is only possible because the disarm token in the bottom-left can be freely toggled multiple times, so if we want to make this behaviour change I believe we could slap a West force arrow on top of that token and then the change would have no impact.

mrimer
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Thanks so much for the careful, thorough examination. That approach to fixing the glitch in disarm tokens sounds good to me. If there are no objections, I'll plan to make this change soon.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-04-2016 02:52 AM]

Nuntar
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Of the rooms Kieran linked, there are only two where this change will cause problems. I agree that the Nameless Fortress room will be fine with the addition of a force arrow. The other is the Hold Anonymous room, where the disarm token allows you to cross a trapdoor without dropping it. This takes you to a room edge, which you can cross and continue exploring the level. Behaviour (2) would mean that if you later come back to a different path in this room, you become disarmed and can't fight anything. The fix is of course to add a second disarm token on the other side of the trapdoor path, for instance at (14,4).

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

kieranmillar
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Wow you're right. That falls under consequence 1. Looking more closely at the layout of the surrounding rooms it seems the various room edges aren't quite as accessible as I thought at first glance. I wish the hold wasn't so hard and I could actually reach this room and play around.

It looks like with your suggestion of the second disarm token it would prevent any problems provided the player rearmed themselves before they went and further, as if they left the room without doing that then backtracking to either token may not be so easy due to those force arrows and damage from swords, but that's something that the player can avoid if they plan ahead properly. Either that or we add way more tokens but there's no room for ones at the other borders.

I think the single additional token there should be fine. What a complicated room.

Doom
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Are you sure you found all the rooms? I know there's at least one more:
Nameless Fortress : The Collapsed Chamber : 3 South. It's a secret, so it might not show up at map.php if you've not visited it.

The suggested change would affect your ability to kill anything in this room for GR. Potentially you could even leave your sword outside the room, come here to trigger the disarm token, go get your sword back, and break the puzzle by using the token to retrieve your sword instead of losing it.

Still fixable of course.

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[Last edited by Doom at 01-04-2016 11:00 AM]

kieranmillar
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Unfortunately Nameless Fortress and Hold Anonymous are the only two published RPG holds I have not beaten, so cannot guarantee I have found all the secret rooms for them. I can't see the image for that room. I wasnt aware that these two holds even had any hidden rooms.

Because I can't see the room I can't comment on what impact this change might have on this room but I think you might be a bit confused about the change being proposed. The proposal is that the tokens continue to only affect the room that they are in so you won't be possible to drop your sword off in another room, you will only be able to enter that room swordless if you have left the room with the token in that room previously activated.

Doom
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File: nf_room.jpg (209.2 KB)
Downloaded 630 times.
License: Public Domain

kieranmillar wrote:
Because I can't see the room I can't comment on what impact this change might have on this room but I think you might be a bit confused about the change being proposed.

Nah. I think we're on the same page, but I wasn't specific enough about the room in question.

The proposal is that the tokens continue to only affect the room that they are in so you won't be possible to drop your sword off in another room

Nameless Fortress is full of empty slots for all item types. I didn't mean using disarm tokens.

you will only be able to enter that room swordless if you have left the room with the token in that room previously activated.

Yes, you can leave the room with the token previously activated as long as you don't have any weapon equipped at the time. It's currently not abusable because the weapon resets when you come back.

Also here's the room image:

kieranmillar
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Aaah I see it all makes sense in context of the room image. Thanks for posting it. With this proposed change you will be able to "prep" the token by unequipping your sword so you can cross the trapdoors without dropping them, then leave and return with your sword re-equipped. There is also the issue of retoggling a disarm token once you've solved the puzzle.

I believe a South force arrow on the Northern trapdoor will solve the first problem. As far as the second issue goes if my understanding of then puzzle is correct from your description, then the puzzle ends when the orb is triggered by the bomb, so adding a closed black door on the wall square directly West of the token that is opened by the orb would help?

Hopefully there are no more rooms. I bumped this thread originally because it looked like only one minor change to a room would be needed to accommodate this but fix, and feel bad that it's now grown to 3.

mrimer
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Can these hold changes be made preparatory to making a code change, or do they need to be published after in order to avoid breaking these holds with the current engine versions out there?

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

kieranmillar
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As far as I can tell these hold changes could be safely made to the holds in advance of a new engine version without breaking anything.

mrimer
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kieranmillar wrote:
As far as I can tell these hold changes could be safely made to the holds in advance of a new engine version without breaking anything.

Thanks for confirming this. Okay, I'd like to request these proposed changes be made to these holds. Once we get to that point, we'll fix this issue in the game engine.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

mrimer
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It's been a couple months and there doesn't appear to be any traction on fixing these rooms, but this bug should be fixed without too much delay.

I've made this change in rev 269.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

kieranmillar
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Can confirm that in 1.2.6.272 disarm token retain their state when re-entering the room.

For what its worth I'd have been happy to make these changes but am not the hold authors so cannot post a hold with the same hold id and author id, someone with that sort of admin ability might have to do it if the original authors are not around to amend the holds.

mrimer
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Thanks! Yes, I can work with you on this. I'll get back to you with more info when I get started.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous.drh (50.7 KB)
Downloaded 49 times.
License: Public Domain

Attached is a copy of Hold Anonymous with the proposed change made. (Added disarm token at (14,4) in Third level : 2 South, 1 East)

kieranmillar
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (87 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

Attached is a copy of Nameless fortress with proposed changes made. (The Broken Stairwell : 3 South, 1 East has West force arrow on top of second disarm token, and The Collapsed Chamber : 3 South has a South force arrow placed on the Northern trapdoor and black door added West of token that opens when the orb is struck.)

kieranmillar
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I guess it goes without saying that while these changes allow the same scores to be achieved with this logic change, they might cause old demos to fail verification. My understanding is that the RPG spider currently doesn't have the same demo testing tools that exist for regular DROD and so if the demos get ran again, they are likely to just get binned and people's scores will drop off of the boards.

Just something to keep in mind.

P.S. Don't forget Washed Ashore update still needs uploading: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=40645&page=0#402684

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-14-2016 08:45 PM]

Schik
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I am... we don't have a RPG spider to test changes before they are made permanent... has someone tested and verified these?


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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

Dragon Fogel
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I used a partial walkthrough by TFMurphy to get me to the third level of Hold Anonymous and made my way to the room with the change.

Issue: The change creates a new backtracking path that wasn't available before.

It is possible to go from the north part of the room to the east part without crossing the trapdoor.

However, going back through that route requires crossing the trapdoor. (It also requires the arrow token not to be hit, but that's not really relevant to this discussion.) Under the old disarm token behavior, this would mean if you left the room through the east and came back, you wouldn't be able to return without dropping the trapdoor.

With the second disarm token, you can do this and use that path to freely go back and forth between the two sides.

There's no other trivial route back to the north area; any other way of circling around requires you to open doors, take damage, or fight monsters.

Options I can see here: attempt to replicate the original behavior with a weird widget; attempt to replicate the original behavior with scripting; just accept the new path because the original design of the room was based around a bug and it's not like the level as a whole was deliberately designed.

Dragon Fogel
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File: Disarm Token Classic.drh (1.1 KB)
Downloaded 54 times.
License: Public Domain

Dragon Fogel wrote:
attempt to replicate the original behavior with scripting;

Just messed around in the editor and worked out how to do this. Hold attached with a demonstration.

The basic summary is that I set a variable to switch between 0 and 1 when you step on the token. If it's 1, the token is active. Then I have a character in the adjacent room that sets the variable to 2 if it's at 1. If you return to the original room with the variable at 2, the token is activated and the variable is reset to 0.

I'm not good at scripting so maybe this can be done more cleanly than what I've got, but it works and can fix this troublesome room without interfering with the function of anything else. Just add an informative scroll saying the token resets if you leave the room.

kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous.drh (51.1 KB)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

After taking a closer look based on Dragon Fogel's feedback, I agree and the original proposed change results in possible gameplay differences.

Attached is a version of Hold Anonymous that changes the disarm token to use a script like the one Dragon Fogel provided to make it behave as it originally did. I have included a scroll that explains that the token has been changed due to engine changes since the hold's release and will turn itself back off if you leave and re-enter the room.

kieranmillar
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With help from Doom and Chaco in chat I can also confirm that my fixes to Nameless Fortress do not break anything, so that hold can also be updated.

The specific set of moves you have to do to get your sword back are different so reverification of existing scores might fail, but they might already do that without any changes so oh well.

Dragon Fogel
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Tested the Hold Anonymous update. Good news and bad news.

Good news: the script works. I hit the token and exited the room in all four directions, and each time my weapon returned.

Bad news: This was only true if I didn't undo or use the R key. If I did, somehow this broke the scripting; pressing R would return me to the start of the room in disarmed state. And when undoing, a Soulless I killed on the original run came back to life, on a turn later than when I'd killed it.

So, there seems to be a bug with undoing and the Activate Item At command. I'll make a new thread about it.

mrimer
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
Bad news: This was only true if I didn't undo or use the R key. If I did, somehow this broke the scripting; pressing R would return me to the start of the room in disarmed state. And when undoing, a Soulless I killed on the original run came back to life, on a turn later than when I'd killed it.

So, there seems to be a bug with undoing and the Activate Item At command. I'll make a new thread about it.

For completeness, I'll mention here that this issue has been addressed for 1.2.8 (as also mentioned in the other thread).

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

mrimer
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kieranmillar wrote:
With help from Doom and Chaco in chat I can also confirm that my fixes to Nameless Fortress do not break anything, so that hold can also be updated.

Just checking that this hold update was made way back when.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Nuntar
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Changes to two rooms were suggested, one regular and one secret. I looked at the regular room in H&S, and it looks like the change has not been made (west force arrow on the disarm token marked "1"). Not sure if that's just the H&S maps not updating, or whether the hold itself has not been changed.



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kieranmillar
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mrimer wrote:

kieranmillar wrote:
With help from Doom and Chaco in chat I can also confirm that my fixes to Nameless Fortress do not break anything, so that hold can also be updated.

Just checking that this hold update was made way back when.

I believe neither of the updates to Hold Anonymous or Nameless Fortress were ever implemented.