Okay, I decided to put together all the posts that happened so far. I used WordPerfect to help me copy/paste, so quotes, bold writing, and a bit of other stuff didn’t come through. These are all the relevant posts.
agaricus5
quote:Schik wrote:
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
Of course. A scientific explanation is always very important.
... to some people. I seriously can't think of any computer game I've ever played where I stopped and thought.... Wait a sec... THAT can't happen!
All the discussion/argument all over the place about how things work, and why different things aren't feasible seem rather silly to me. Pure and simple, it's fiction. It works however the author of the story says it does. But hey, if it amuses you... by all means, have fun with it.
Look at it this way. If I was so serious about explanations and logicality, then would I be playing DROD at all?
For example - how in the world would living tar be possible? You would need organs ready in each square of tar that would put themselves together to make a tar baby when the tar is cut, in the right order/composition and without fail every time. In addition, how can tar just increase its mass out of nowhere?
Seriously, if I was that bothered about the problems with giant monsters in structurally physics-defying giant dungeons, then I would have looked at DROD and said something like, "
this game is so inconsistent and so unrealistic that I don't want to play it."
Fortunately, I didn't, thus proving that I'm not really too bothered about the fiction behind the Eighth. (You could say I contributed to it by submitting Feature Requests).
Oh, and I'm not offended either - just tired, so the message will sound rushed and a little blunt.
Sorry about that.
The_Red_Hawk
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
For example - how in the world would living tar be possible? You would need organs ready in each square of tar that would put themselves together to make a tar baby when the tar is cut, in the right order/composition and without fail every time. In addition, how can tar just increase its mass out of nowhere?
Well, all the other monsters are certainly possible (even brains - they shoot out electrical impulses that work like cattle prods), and I'm pretty sure tar is too. You wouldn't need extra organs - let's just say that tar only has one weird sense which allows it to sense exterminators. It will try to move in that direction, but it only can do that when it is a tar baby and mobile. Let's say (again) that the tar, when it is cut to a small enough area, implodes into a thing with capabilities of movement, and the eyes and mouth are just for show. The tar just smothers him.
The tar increases mass whenever a Tar Mother is in the room. How about this - every 30 turns, the mother shoots electrical impulses out. There is a chemical reaction within the tar which causes it to expand. If the area is too small, that square of tar implodes, forms a tar baby, and goes after Beethro in the normal fashion.
So it is possible.
agaricus5
OK.... It's a "
just for fun"
argument.
quote:The_Red_Hawk wrote:
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
For example - how in the world would living tar be possible? You would need organs ready in each square of tar that would put themselves together to make a tar baby when the tar is cut, in the right order/composition and without fail every time. In addition, how can tar just increase its mass out of nowhere?
Well, all the other monsters are certainly possible (even brains - they shoot out electrical impulses that work like cattle prods), and I'm pretty sure tar is too. You wouldn't need extra organs - let's just say that tar only has one weird sense which allows it to sense exterminators. It will try to move in that direction, but it only can do that when it is a tar baby and mobile. Let's say (again) that the tar, when it is cut to a small enough area, implodes into a thing with capabilities of movement, and the eyes and mouth are just for show. The tar just smothers him.
Yes, but where do the eyes and mouth come from? Somehow the molecules of tar have to change composition, structure and colour for what you say to happen, which, in the time-space of one cutting (a few seconds) is highly unlikely to happen. The enzymes catalysing the reactions to turn the blue tar into eyes and mouths are going to have to be super-fast, efficient and extremely accurate for it to happen each time Beethro cuts the tar to make babies.
quote:The tar increases mass whenever a Tar Mother is in the room. How about this - every 30 turns, the mother shoots electrical impulses out. There is a chemical reaction within the tar which causes it to expand. If the area is too small, that square of tar implodes, forms a tar baby, and goes after Beethro in the normal fashion.
How do the electrical impulses "
create"
mass? Although the tar may perform a chemical reaction within itself, how does this reaction turn whatever it is the Tar uses to grow into Tar? If it derives the chemicals from the air, and if we say the air has density 1/600g/cm^3 (the air will be more dense underground) and tar has a density of around 2g/cm^3, (water has a density of 1g/cm^3) then the Tar is probably going to need around a thousand litres of air to form just one litre of Tar.
quote:So it is possible.
I don't agree with you.
trick
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
Yes, but where do the eyes and mouth come from?
Magic.
quote:How do the electrical impulses "
create"
mass?
E=MC^2
agaricus5
quote:trick wrote:
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
Yes, but where do the eyes and mouth come from?
Magic.
Oh... of course. I forgot.
quote:
quote:How do the electrical impulses "
create"
mass?
E=MC^2
Hmm...
Energy conversion to mass for tar growth?
So... if the density of tar is 2g/cm^3, then 1 litre will weigh 2kg, and the amount of energy needed by the tar to increase its mass by 2kg is:
2*((3*(10^
)^2) = 1.8*10^17 Joules,
Or 180000000000000000J,
That means that the electrical impulse needs to convert this much energy into mass. An electricity bolt that large would probably fry the entire dungeon level.
trick
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
quote:trick wrote:
Magic.
Oh... of course. I forgot.
What is the world coming to ?
quote:
quote:
quote:How do the electrical impulses "
create"
mass?
E=MC^2
Hmm...
Energy conversion to mass for tar growth?
So... if the density of tar is 2g/cm^3, then 1 litre will weigh 2kg, and the amount of energy needed by the tar to increase its mass by 2kg is:
2*((3*(10^)^2) = 1.8*10^17 Joules,
Or 180000000000000000J,
That means that the electrical impulse needs to convert this much energy into mass. An electricity bolt that large would probably fry the entire dungeon level.
Hm, yes, that is a problem, unless we explain that by magic as well (but I don't want to, let's be creative here). Also, even if the energy bolts from the tar somehow doesn't fry the entire level every 30 "
turns"
(highly concentrated directional laser-like bolts, maybe ?), where do the energy come from ?
Hm... Judging by the nature of the Living Tar, I say there's a relatively high chance (*cough*) that it not only exists in three dimensions, but is a fourth (or higher) dimensional being. This means that, at every Tar growth cycle, the Mother simply moves part of its mass into our dimensions. There's no actual growth involved. This would also explain how a Mother can make other seemingly disconnected blobs of Tar grow at the same cycle -- the Tar is in fact connected (within the room, at least), just not in our dimensions.
The_Red_Hawk
The "
extra dimension"
sounds good - but then wouldn't just one mother be able to control all the tar in the world?
How about this: when the tar mother shoots out electrical impulses, they are attracted by the tar. When tar is stimulated by just the tiniest amount of electricity, it chemically reacts and expands.
And, when I said the eyes and mouth are for show, I meant that they don't really exist, just that it's drawn. But if you like, the explanation is that when the small pieces of tar implode, some parts are unable to keep their matter correct and therefore turn white. They try to close the holes (closing the mouth) but rarely succeeds. The white patches are always in the same location because of the tar's chemical makeup.
DiMono
Ah, Physics. Physics can explain anything. Scientists could prove that an elephant hanging over a cliff could be supported by its tail being wrapped around a daisy. Anyway:
Tar existing in 4 dimensions wouldn't necessarily control all tar in the world. Go read Flatland, then imagine a 3 dimensional object interacting with a 2 dimensional plane. As you pass the object through the 2 dimensional plane, its appearance in 2 dimensions will change. However, since it's only one object, it has limited size.
Similarly, a 4 dimensional object in a 3 dimensional area would appear to change size, but would still have limited size in 4 dimensions. After all, it must be located somewhere.
The real question is "
how could removing an entire section of tar not connected to the Tar Mother be productive?"
After all, the Mother could just move more of itself in to the room again in the same place, thus defeating the purpose of removing it in the first place.
For the tar growth, I think it's much more likely that Tar Mothers just perceive time faster than we do. After all, we have two or three growth spurts in the first 18 years of our lives, where we seem to just expand. If this were accelerated, we might seem to inexplicably grow every 30 turns too. Maybe it takes its nutrition from the trace elements in the air?
Since the Tar Mother is sentient (to some degree), it seems reasonable that it has highly developed psychic abilities that allow it to control similar substances, explaining how separated tar grows as well. Then, the Tar Mother could psychically pass enough instinct to its Tar Babies so they can survive on their own.
And just for the record, I fully know that oversized snakes would barely be able to move, let alone climb trees.
The_Red_Hawk
If tar mothers are psychic, are brains psychic too?
agaricus5
More friendly argument.... (See the "
Story Collaboration"
thread if you want to know what I mean)
quote
iMono wrote:
Ah, Physics. Physics can explain anything. Scientists could prove that an elephant hanging over a cliff could be supported by its tail being wrapped around a daisy. Anyway:
Of course. What if the elephant and its surroundings were in a zero gravity field? Then the elephant would not pull much on the daisy and so as long as the elephant does not get the urge to wiggle its tail, the daisy till remain intact.
quote:Tar existing in 4 dimensions wouldn't necessarily control all tar in the world.
Well, I think the assumption is that tar mothers will only control tar within the boundaries of the room it's in - one place where I must let fiction win, because one tar mother could, in theory, control all the tar in a dungeon level, or in many rooms of it, for its influences travel through walls.
quote:Go read Flatland, then imagine a 3 dimensional object interacting with a 2 dimensional plane. As you pass the object through the 2 dimensional plane, its appearance in 2 dimensions will change. However, since it's only one object, it has limited size. Similarly, a 4 dimensional object in a 3 dimensional area would appear to change size, but would still have limited size in 4 dimensions. After all, it must be located somewhere.
I'm following...
quote:The real question is "
how could removing an entire section of tar not connected to the Tar Mother be productive?"
After all, the Mother could just move more of itself in to the room again in the same place, thus defeating the purpose of removing it in the first place.
The problem is that then the tar mother could move tar anywhere into the room, not just on the perimeter of a tar mass. If the tar were present in all three spatial dimensions on a square, just beyond it on a 4th dimension coordinate that takes it out of the other three and overlays it, then in theory, the tar mother could move that mass of tar into the room and plop it down, totally separate from other tar masses in the room.
quote:For the tar growth, I think it's much more likely that Tar Mothers just perceive time faster than we do. After all, we have two or three growth spurts in the first 18 years of our lives, where we seem to just expand. If this were accelerated, we might seem to inexplicably grow every 30 turns too. Maybe it takes its nutrition from the trace elements in the air?
As I said before...
Let's suppose the density of air is 1/600g/cm^3 (Air is more dense underground) and the density of tar is around 2g/cm^3 and that the tar will utilise everything in the air for nutrition in this hypothetical set-up. For every litre of tar, the tar mother would need at least 1200 litres of air to make it. Dungeons would become huge vacuum tunnels if a tar mother could make so much tar out of thin air.
quote:Since the Tar Mother is sentient (to some degree), it seems reasonable that it has highly developed psychic abilities that allow it to control similar substances, explaining how separated tar grows as well. Then, the Tar Mother could psychically pass enough instinct to its Tar Babies so they can survive on their own.
Yes, but how does a square of tar turn from an indestinct mass of semi-liquid hydrocarbons and nitrogenous compounds into a fully-fledged, operational and mobile Tar Baby?
quote:And just for the record, I fully know that oversized snakes would barely be able to move, let alone climb trees.
I fully agree.
Schik
quote:agaricus5 wrote:
quote:Tar existing in 4 dimensions wouldn't necessarily control all tar in the world.
Well, I think the assumption is that tar mothers will only control tar within the boundaries of the room it's in - one place where I must let fiction win, because one tar mother could, in theory, control all the tar in a dungeon level, or in many rooms of it, for its influences travel through walls.
Walls in *our* dimensions. Perhaps it's bound by room-sized walls in other dimensions that we can't see.
quote:
Let's suppose the density of air is 1/600g/cm^3 (Air is more dense underground) and the density of tar is around 2g/cm^3 and that the tar will utilise everything in the air for nutrition in this hypothetical set-up. For every litre of tar, the tar mother would need at least 1200 litres of air to make it. Dungeons would become huge vacuum tunnels if a tar mother could make so much tar out of thin air.
Is there any literature describing the density of air and tar on the Eighth? Perhaps they're nothing like the density of air and tar that we know and love here on earth. Perhaps the tar isn't really anything like tar we know, it's just a metaphor used to make us more comfortable.
Or perhaps the tar mother takes in some air and simply makes the tar less dense throughout the room, spreading it around.
quote:Yes, but how does a square of tar turn from an indestinct mass of semi-liquid hydrocarbons and nitrogenous compounds into a fully-fledged, operational and mobile Tar Baby?
Again, who said that's what the tar is made of? Maybe the tar babies are always there, trapped in the tar, and Beethro simply frees them when he cuts off a small piece (or a small piece is formed by expanding).
quote:
quote:And just for the record, I fully know that oversized snakes would barely be able to move, let alone climb trees.
I fully agree.
I agree, but only if we're talking about earth, and not some fictional land where our physics are meaningless.
Next are the two posts above. I’ll put them here for convenience. It should be noted, however, that there are a few other posts before and after this stuff, but they don’t relate.
agaricus5
OK... Let's see if we can get Erik to give us some info on this and get this re-started.
A heated debate on what tar is exactly was going on in the "
Bridges"
thread on the Feature Requests Board, but it wasn't really the place for it, so I've moved it here.
[previous post]
Here, we've just had some argument over my assumptions about Tar and the density of air and also possibly over the problem that physics may not work on the Eighth in the same way, which undermines most of my arguments but also forces Erik to write a whole new set of physical "
rules"
for the Eighth.
So...
Erik...
First, what is tar made of?
Second, what is the density of Tar, the density of water, and the density of air on the Eighth (Water is 1g/cm^3 on Earth)?
The_Red_Hawk
All right, how about this?
Tar is actually a mix of trillions of tiny organisms. When a piece of tar is 1x1, the tar is unable to structurally support itself and a radical chemical change occurs where a sensing organ is created. Now that it is smaller, it can move about. However, as it has no brain, it just tries to go through walls. The eyes and mouth we see on the screen is just to help us distinguish it from normal tar.
Now, the tar mother is an organism that are two partially symbiotic eye-like shapes that used to be monsters separate from the tar, but evolved to go into it to...let's say escape from predators. From then on, its movement was unneccesary and it became fixed to the ground. (I would also like to point out that each eye must be about the same size as a roach, because it cannot be over a wall, and therefore is probably a fairly complex organism.) Over the millions of years of evolution, one of the tar mother's organs has evolved in a strange way. This organ distributes eggs/sperm/whatever identical to those in the tar/single-cell organisms' reproductive systems. This causes the tar to expand wherever possible.
As said previously by someone else, the "
whatevers"
do not go from room to room because of a barrier that only affects tar that exists in an eleventh dimension (It is theorised that there are ten in all).
All right, are there any impossibilities or unexplained facts in that?
So, that’s it. Continue on!
[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 12-16-2003 at 02:20 AM GMT]
____________________________
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Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.
.....the king of the skies.....
/dy