OneMoreNameless
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 131
Registered: 07-31-2010
IP: Logged

I don't know if this has been submitted yet or not, but here's some more feedback anyway:

Beethro and the Cake is pretty neat. It's easy, but most rooms use simple lynchpin-style tricks rather than dull hoards or 'been there done that' manipulation, so it's still fun for veterans who want to untangle their minds from tougher holds. Checkpoints and vision tokens are used appropriately. Aesthetic design is smooth, if a touch generic (not that there's anything wrong with that). The ending is cute and satisfying. It took me a couple of hours, which was longer than I'd expected.

I found Lemons 1N1E, Butter 1S1W, Eggs 1E and Eggs 2W to be the cleverest and most enjoyable to solve, with special mention going to Sugar 1N1W for being straightforward but cool to play anyway due to the precise timing. Bonus design points should also be awarded for Butter 1S - a quiet place for novices to (re)familiarise themselves with tar and mud if needs be - and Sugar 1N1E - wherein a vision token and initial mirror placement helpfully reminds players about the required interaction.

The repeated adder manipulation in Sugar 1W was kind of a pain, though. Sugar 1E just seemed like hacking away without care. Lemons 2N1E was dull once you're aware of clone-switching. Manually backtracking to collect the ingredients was rather annoying; you already have a master wall, this script was pretty redundant. (Also insert standard jab at tedious wall scanning here.)

Darn it, now you've got me vaguely inspired to try designing a hold less messy than most of my last attempt turned out.

Kwerulous
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 340
Registered: 05-15-2008
IP: Logged

Hi OneMoreNameless, thanks for playing through. I was not far off submitting actually! In response to some of your specific comments:

OneMoreNameless wrote:
Aesthetic design is smooth, if a touch generic (not that there's anything wrong with that).

That's actually the kind of feel I was going for - 'classic' style, easy on the eyes and 'less is more'.

The repeated adder manipulation in Sugar 1W was kind of a pain, though.

You're not the first to mention this. Would it be better if you only had to lure the rattlesnake once onto the hot-tiles?

Sugar 1E just seemed like hacking away without care.

As I said before, this room is just meant to introduce the theme of the level as a kind of warm up (and it also leads to the secret area).

Lemons 2N1E was dull once you're aware of clone-switching.

I'm guessing you solved this by placing the clone near the top of the room and switching back and forth? The intended solution is to use the inactive clone as a wall, which is perhaps less tedious?

Manually backtracking to collect the ingredients was rather annoying; you already have a master wall, this script was pretty redundant. (Also insert standard jab at tedious wall scanning here.)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you referring to the fact that there is a master wall and a scripted yellow door in the Bakery 1E?

Also, I actually somewhat disagree with looking for secret rooms being annoying. I suppose in a large 25 level hold it could become irritating, but since there's only five levels here I wouldn't have thought it would be that bad. However, I'd be willing to make the secret passages a bit more obvious.

Darn it, now you've got me vaguely inspired to try designing a hold less messy than most of my last attempt turned out.

Heh, sorry about that!

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[Last edited by Kwerulous at 04-27-2013 12:26 PM]

OneMoreNameless
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 131
Registered: 07-31-2010
IP: Logged

Kwerulous wrote: You're not the first to mention this. Would it be better if you only had to lure the rattlesnake once onto the hot-tiles?

Well. If you shortened the rattlesnake too much it wouldn't be as interesting as when it had a longer tail to manipulate (and would visually look odd near to the longer adder) so *shrugs*.

Kwerulous wrote: I'm guessing you solved this by placing the clone near the top of the room and switching back and forth? The intended solution is to use the inactive clone as a wall, which is perhaps less tedious?

... That ... okay.

Kwerulous wrote: Are you referring to the fact that there is a master wall and a scripted yellow door in the Bakery 1E?

Yeah. The scripted yellow door requires you to have found all the ingredients, but to have passed the master wall already requires you to have found all the secret rooms with ingredients - and you can use the restore functionality while still opening the master wall. If you placed a conquer token next to each ingredient you could even be sure the player has viewed Beethro's dialogue upon discovering it, without needing a custom script (and consequently manual backtracking) later.

Looking for the secrets didn't actually take long and I'm sure a few people enjoy it, this is apparently just my pet peeve now.

Kwerulous
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 340
Registered: 05-15-2008
IP: Logged

OneMoreNameless wrote:

Kwerulous wrote: Are you referring to the fact that there is a master wall and a scripted yellow door in the Bakery 1E?

Yeah. The scripted yellow door requires you to have found all the ingredients, but to have passed the master wall already requires you to have found all the secret rooms with ingredients - and you can use the restore functionality while still opening the master wall. If you placed a conquer token next to each ingredient you could even be sure the player has viewed Beethro's dialogue upon discovering it, without needing a custom script (and consequently manual backtracking) later.

Looking for the secrets didn't actually take long and I'm sure a few people enjoy it, this is apparently just my pet peeve now.

Okay, I was going to explain that. But I like your idea of using conquer tokens so I remove that scripted door. I'm actually going to sit the ingredients on a toggle pressure plate that then opens a door to a conquer token once you take the ingredient. This is just because they don't look very nice sitting on top of a token. Edit: that actually causes back-tracking issues, so the plate will now trigger a door that lures a monster onto a hot-tile.

Thanks for this idea, that makes it a bit neater.

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[Last edited by Kwerulous at 04-27-2013 02:57 PM]

Kwerulous
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 340
Registered: 05-15-2008
IP: Logged

Update 5:
The only major change is the Bakery - the scripted door is removed. With OneMoreNameless' suggestion, you're now able to collect the ingredients by restoring.

I'm convinced this will be the final version, so I will go ahead and submit this soon.

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[Last edited by Kwerulous at 04-27-2013 03:53 PM]