agaricus5
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techant wrote:
Thanks agaricus5 for the recommendation about the other forum area. I thought that the helps were usuall here but I see that I was wrong. That is some kind of use of movement. If there is ever a contest asking for the best use of monster movement you would win it with that room.

Nah. Wraithwing rooms aren't very common, but there are good examples of ingenious ones in other holds like Claythro Tower and A Quiet Place, to give examples.

There are also more wraithwing rooms similar to this awaiting you on L4 and L13.

Is it an original idea? and how did you come up with it?

I didn't take it from anyone else's hold when I built it, so I guess you could say it is original in that sense. I came up with it when I reshuffled the hold, and found Wraithwing manipulation rooms being a little lacking in the hold, so I decided to add it.



On a slightly unrelated note, L4 1N 1E is trivial, since you can...



I will fix this for DROD 2.0.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:01-23-2005 at 10:42 AM]

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 12:19 PM]

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agaricus5
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I don't know why, but so many rooms in the hold are turning out to be trivial. L5 Entrance has a nasty bug in it; the tar timer is far too lenient, so you can kill the mothers without having to go to all the trouble of managing any tar whatsoever. I shall definitely fix this for 2.0 as well.

Edit (28/03/05):Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 01:40 PM]

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eytanz
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agaricus5 wrote:
I don't know why, but so many rooms in the hold are turning out to be trivial.

That's because the design in many of your rooms is very intricate and specific. That makes for some great puzzles, but makes the puzzles very susceptible to being broken by someone doing something unexpected.


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agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
I don't know why, but so many rooms in the hold are turning out to be trivial.

That's because the design in many of your rooms is very intricate and specific. That makes for some great puzzles, but makes the puzzles very susceptible to being broken by someone doing something unexpected.

Yeah, well, I'm going to sort them out as they appear. I tried to avoid too much over-specificity (i.e. like in A Quiet Place), and focused on understanding of monster movements in general, rather than in context, which is probably why some people are better at breaking my rooms than I am because they understand them better.

Still, I'm going to fix as many rooms as possible for 2.0 and make one or two a little less annoying, like L9 1N 4E.

Edit (28/03/05): Room changed for 1.6/2.0.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 04:58 PM]

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eytanz
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It's not necessary for someone to understand the rules better than you to break a room - remember, when you design a room you build a preconception of how it's going to be solved. Someone trying to solve the room has no such preconception. It's just human nature that once we know one solution well, it's harder to see the others.

In addition to complexity, harder rooms are more likely to be broken than easier rooms because, since it's not easy to find the solution, people search more and may stumble onto something.

The same thing happened to me in a lot of my JtRH rooms (the alternate solutions found in beta are just a subset of a much larger set that the devs found in each other's rooms before beta started).

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agaricus5
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Just a quick note:

A incorrectly pointing force arrow at (30,18) was spotted in L4 1S here.

This will be fixed for the next version.

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 05:02 PM]

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agaricus5
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Another note:

L13 2S 2E is very trivial indeed, since...



I will attempt to fix this room for 2.0.

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 05:35 PM]

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pecan
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
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Can someone tell me how to GET these holds. I thought I'd downloaded some holds but can't get them to open. Are the files called ????.hld? And what do I do once I have it?

Catherine

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TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
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You can either download them from the link at the first post of the thread in this holds board, or from [url http://www.drod.net/forum/holds.php.

When you want to play them, click "Where" on the main DROD screen, click Import and choose the hold. You need to have the Architects Edition to be able to play the holds.

SbCl3
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 61
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agaricus5, you are one sadistic hold maker...in a good way.

This is so far the best and most challenging hold i've seen...it took me a hint and a couple hours just for level 1..

schep
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I just finished this hold, including both the maze and the bypass. Wonderful.

A few comments about bugs, strange solutions, etc. (version 50Final):

L5 2S 2E seemed rather unforgiving. I think I had less than five spare moves when I finally managed it. But maybe I missed an inefficient spot somewhere.

After visiting the "optional" L13 2N 3E, room 1N 2E doesn't let Tolbus back out. So it's good the other room was optional, but an extra orb or mimic potion or green door would be nice.

L13 1S 5E seems somewhat easier than intended:


Just wondering about L13 2S 4E:


L14 12E could really use a few checkpoints. Unless the main point of the room really was "Argh I got to the last chamber and made a stupid mistake and had to start over AGAIN," in which case , thppppbt.

agaricus5
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schep wrote:
I just finished this hold, including both the maze and the bypass. Wonderful.

Great!

L5 2S 2E seemed rather unforgiving. I think I had less than five spare moves when I finally managed it. But maybe I missed an inefficient spot somewhere.

Well, it's not easy to be much more efficient than that, I don't think. The best I've done is about 3 moves left over, so it looks like you did pretty well.

After visiting the "optional" L13 2N 3E, room 1N 2E doesn't let Tolbus back out. So it's good the other room was optional, but an extra orb or mimic potion or green door would be nice.

It's a known bug. I've fixed it for the 2.0 version.

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

L13 1S 5E seems somewhat easier than intended:

Click here to view the secret text

×Backing up to hit a previous orb near the beginning can leave the bottom tar trapped in the 6x6 square for the entire level. That said, it was still difficult enough. I hate trying to eliminate tar while on a timer.

Erm... Oops?

Good catch! I think that makes quite a lot of the rest of the room more trivial than intended. Thanks!

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

Just wondering about L13 2S 4E:

Click here to view the secret text

×I managed with great difficulty to get out the red door. Is it also possible to slash a path that visits all the tar babies and mother but leaves some tar, then returns to the entrance? This seemed to me like the hardest, or at least most tedious and frustrating, room in the hold, but maybe the solution I didn't even try is a bit easier?

I think it's known that you could do it like that, and I believe it's probably much easier than dropping all the trapdoors. I'll definitely fix this, since the challenge is in getting to all the trapdoors, although in JtRH, the ability to undo a move and restore back to any previous checkpoint should reduce the tedium somewhat.

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

L14 12E could really use a few checkpoints. Unless the main point of the room really was "Argh I got to the last chamber and made a stupid mistake and had to start over AGAIN," in which case , thppppbt.

Oops.

No-one (including myself) noticed there weren't any at all! I'll fix this right away!

Edit (28/03/05): Room changed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 06:35 PM]

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 06:40 PM]

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Doom
Level: Smitemaster

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L10-2S2E seems somehow too easy. This is what I did:

Dali
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 174
Registered: 02-05-2005
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you guys are amazing: i'm still stuck in level 7 ( i skipped only rooms from level 4 and 6) and it's extremely hard (2S 3. I'va also completed some rooms in level 8 and... dunno what to say (like 1S 3E is very hard...)

agaricus5
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Doom wrote:
L10-2S2E seems somehow too easy. This is what I did:
...

Finally, I wondered what the 3 untouched tar chambers were for...

Not again!

Another trivial solution in this room. I'm not sure how I'm going to fix this using non JtRH elements (it has been broken before, unfortunately), but I'll get onto it right away!

Thanks, Doom.

Edit (28/03/05): Bug fixed for 1.6/2.0

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 08:40 PM]

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agaricus5
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I'm at the moment making a new version of Bavato's Dungeon for JtRH, but before I get too far advanced into it (there is no backwards compatibility), I'd just like to hear some opinions on a question I have:

Should I also make a new version for 1.6 as well, or is it not really worth the time to do so?

Also, since I am working on a new version, if there is anything you think is trivial or incorrectly positioned, as well as anything you think should be changed, don't hesitate to ask about it. Don't forget, there are 5 points still on offer for each bug found before the new release, and of course, I can only fix something if I know about it.

Again, thanks for all the support you've given me over the project's lifetime. I'm very grateful for it.

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SbCl3
Level: Delver
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agaricus5 wrote:
I'm at the moment making a new version of Bavato's Dungeon for JtRH, but before I get too far advanced into it (there is no backwards compatibility), I'd just like to hear some opinions on a question I have:

Should I also make a new version for 1.6 as well, or is it not really worth the time to do so?

Also, since I am working on a new version, if there is anything you think is trivial or incorrectly positioned, as well as anything you think should be changed, don't hesitate to ask about it. Don't forget, there are 5 points still on offer for each bug found before the new release, and of course, I can only fix something if I know about it.

Again, thanks for all the support you've given me over the project's lifetime. I'm very grateful for it.

I think your version for 1.6 is as good as it will ever get, with the exception of the fact that there is, in my opinion, more orb testing required for some rooms than is necessary.

agaricus5
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SbCl3 wrote:
I think your version for 1.6 is as good as it will ever get...

Well, not really. There are quite a number of trivial solutions and bugs floating around that unbalance the hold somewhat in terms of difficulty and therefore, I guess, fun (for this hold, I expect that most people who are playing it equate challenge with fun).

...with the exception of the fact that there is, in my opinion, more orb testing required for some rooms than is necessary.

Certainly on early levels (1-3) this is the case with quite a few rooms, although for some of those, it's not fatal if you hit an orb without intending its results, since you can continue playing the puzzle without making it unsolvable.

Thanks for the feedback though, although if you could tell me what level you are on, it would help me understand your comments better.

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SbCl3
Level: Delver
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I finished level one, I thought that was quite painful. Very creative and thoughtful, but painful.

Right now i'm in level two and having trouble walking in the right places and placing mimics in the right places. There always seems to be a place that I just can't get to with where i've walked and put the mimic. (i'm currently in that room right after the entrance).


[Edited by SbCl3 at Local Time:03-27-2005 at 05:29 AM]

TripleM
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SbCl3 wrote:
I finished level one, I thought that was quite painful. Very creative and thoughtful, but painful.

Heh, heh.. and you thought the FIRST level was painful Just wait till you see whats to come..
(Though I have to say its a very very good hold.)

MasterGiga
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 67
Registered: 02-21-2005
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To the architect of Bavato's Dungeon, may I say, "Wow!"

I've only played a few user-made holds, but to me this one honestly seems like one that stands very close to KDD. However, I do find myself unable to endure a lot of rooms and get this: I'm only on Level 2 (The storage chambers)! (Yes, I know, pathetic...hahaha!) But I only have that annoying room 1S to complete...hmm.

Well, I have plenty of time to get back to Bavato's...when I get up the nerve.

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...

agaricus5
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SbCl3 wrote:
Right now i'm in level two and having trouble walking in the right places and placing mimics in the right places. There always seems to be a place that I just can't get to with where i've walked and put the mimic. (i'm currently in that room right after the entrance).

In 1E...



Also...



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Dali
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 174
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hey, Mastergiga! this hold is 10 times harder than KDD!
Have you checked the other levels, like 7 or 8 or whatever?
I tell you, you'll stay at least 1 year to complete the hold!
Anyway
Hey agaricus, if you read this reply, can I have one rank point because I found ?


[Edited by mrimer at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 08:53 PM]

agaricus5
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Dali wrote:
Hey agaricus, if you read this reply, can I have one rank point because I found...

Erm... Could you please put that in secret tags, please?

As for the rank point, I'll give it to you now, since you asked. However, since getting rank points after asking for them attaches too much significance to this ranking system, note that I may not do this in future.

Also, this is the last call for any trivial solutions, bugs to be fixed or changes you want to see happen to be reported. I am about half-way through a new 1.6 release (as you might have noticed if you've looked at the older posts here very recently), and probably won't be releasing another version after this one, unless I've missed something important. Remember, I'll give you a +5 for any bugs you find (that haven't already been found) up until the release of the next version!

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-28-2005 at 10:59 PM]

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Dali
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Oh please sorry Agaricus. next I will be more discret. thanks for the point.
I told you also that in your 'topic of trival solutions for Bavato's Dungeon' in Architecture(Dunno why ). So check over there and you may be pleased about what i found for level 4

Dali
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Oh please sorry Agaricus. next I will be more discret. thanks for the point.
I told you also that in your 'topic of trival solutions for Bavato's Dungeon' in Architecture(Dunno why ). So check over there and you may be pleased about what i found for level 4

Maurog
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You know, I used to always keep some extra negatively charged mod points in case I see people asking for points. This way, if somebody does mod them up after all, I could always mod them back down
Points happen to you because of your actions, not because you ask for them.

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agaricus5
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Update:

A new version containing many fixes for trivial rooms has been released! Now you can play these rooms as they were intended.

This is the last new version (hopefully) for 1.6, which contains a large number of changes, most of them for trivial rooms and bugs. You do not need to update, but I would recommend it, especially if you want to play the fixed rooms as they should have been originally.

Thanks to everyone who found trivial solutions and bugs; I'm very grateful for your help, since 16 trivial rooms were found and fixed, as well as a number of other things that needed changing too.

Fixed Seriously Trivial Rooms

L2 1S – Added new section to Roach Queen release area.

L3 1N – Changed some orb associations and added Force Arrows to one passage.

L4 1N 1E – Made goblin chamber more irregular.

L4 1N – Moved Serpent trapping doors away from wall edges. Also, door was added to last mimic chamber to stop you leaving before it does.

L5 Entrance – Added more tar.

L7 2S 3E – Added inaccessible tar.

L9 1S 4E – Changed Tar Baby trapping mechanism.

L10 1S 4E – Enforced original solution by pre-positioning Roach Queens.

L10 2S 2E – Added a Mimic Potion, more inaccessible Roaches and changed a few door associations.

L13 2S 3E – Stopped any spawning of roaches by the queen (It's a bit ugly, but I can't find a better solution).

L13 1S 5E – Stopped timer delay orbs from being re–activated.

L13 2S 4E – Added monsters after red door.

Fixed Slightly Trivial Rooms

L4 1S – Changed Force Arrow at (30,18) to face west, not northwest.

L6 1N 2E - Added Roach Queen timer.

L9 1N 2E – Changed door association at (27,13) to "close" by orb (33,18).

Structural Changes

L9 1N 1W – Changed end section structure to avoid using the Brain path–map reset bug.

L9 1N 4E – Changed room completely to increase puzzle content.

L13 1N 2E – Allowed return through room after visiting 2N 3E.

L13 1E – Added stairs. (Tolbus would have used them if he hadn’t fallen through the floor).

L14 12E – Added checkpoints.

There were also some slight changes in some scrolls, level descriptions, and room borders for a better overall appearance on several levels.

Any feedback you have on any of these changes, especially if you find that the rooms are still trivial, would be very much appreciated.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:03-30-2005 at 03:57 PM]

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SbCl3
Level: Delver
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Now that JtRH is released, what are you going to do?

Are you going to start a whole new dungeon or modify/make a copy of Bavato's Dungeon with the new elements?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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SbCl3 wrote:
Now that JtRH is released, what are you going to do?

Lots of things. I've just got to calm down first amidst all this excitement; it's driving me slightly hyperactive.

Are you going to start a whole new dungeon or modify/make a copy of Bavato's Dungeon with the new elements?

Both, in fact. Bavato's Dungeon will have a new 2.0 version made for it, although it will not be a remake. It will take advantage of some of the new features of JtRH, like scripting and new floors, but there will be almost no new elements in it otherwise to keep it as close to the original as possible.

I will, however, be building a sequel to Bavato's Dungeon for JtRH (it's being slowly constructed at the rate of about 1 room per month), which will be using all the new elements of JtRH and incorporating scripting to build its storyline.

I may do remakes of some of Bavato's Dungeon in the future (although these will probably not make it into this sequel), but this will primarily depend on how this hold develops its storyline and what constraints I'm under to keep it all flawlessly consistent with the Eighth.

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