thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

Hello there! I've been playing with the subterra editor after a long break from the game. I mostly mess with the explosion content of skelwings, making giant levels by blowing up huge groups of them. I think it's really cool that subterra gives me a way to have a random level every time. With this in mind, I'm having some problems.

1. Subterra has a (fairly large) limit on the amount of enemies it will use in a level. If you place too many (like a lot of skelwings), it will use as many as it can, and then leave a large, blank area in the lower-right of the group, because it hits the limit.

I don't know if I can work around this, or how easily this limit is changed, but if there is any way to increase this limit, it'd be a great bone to throw the Subterra fans out there.

2. Sometimes (I'm guessing when many things happen/appear at once, like with a massive skelwing explosion) the game will fail to render some terrain/laser beams. The latter is particularly problematic in my levels, but the former is present as well. Is there any way to tell the game to "rerender" every once in a while to avoid things like this? Pausing frequently can sometimes fix the lasers, but sometimes others will disappear, and I haven't been able to fix the invisible terrain at all.

3. Subterra used to have a split-screen function. I remember playing with it on older versions. Any chance of this making it back into the code as an editor option? I don't know why it was removed, but my friend and I used to have a lot of fun playing levels that we'd made in-which the players aren't always close enough to see each other.

I know that ST2 and other projects are probably taking more priority now, but I feel that with some minor improvements, the first game can really get some new life for old fans like me. If there's anything that can be done to fix these (hopefully) minor problems, and maybe even to put split-screen back in as a toggle, I know I wouldn't be the only thankful one.

As a final question, I would be thrilled to have elements from both ST1 and 2 in a single game. Are there any plans for a new subterra with such a formidable load of content? I know I wouldn't be the only one with their jaw on the floor after reading such news, and I'm sure I'd even drop a small sum of cash for a game of this caliber.

Thanks for reading. Your games have brought me hours of fun, and I'm really glad there's someone out there who is involved with their community. I hope you'll consider my requests, and keep making awesome games like Subterra.

EDIT: Another misc bug, sometimes the game doesn't exit correctly and displays a large white screen. I can only get out by ending the process with ctrl+alt+delete.

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-01-2010 03:20 AM]

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

thecraww wrote:
As a final question, I would be thrilled to have elements from both ST1 and 2 in a single game. Are there any plans for a new subterra with such a formidable load of content?

There's already such a game already in the works. Check out this topic for more.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

thecraww wrote:
1. Subterra has a (fairly large) limit on the amount of enemies it will use in a level.

SubTerra works on the philosophy that bigger levels aren't necessarily better levels. Also, it was written to run on what counted as low-end computers ten years ago. Because of those two reasons, it has a limit to level size as well as to objects. I don't really see the benefit in increasing those, as I don't think it affects anything except "huge skelwing explosion" levels.

2. Sometimes (I'm guessing when many things happen/appear at once, like with a massive skelwing explosion) the game will fail to render some terrain/laser beams.

This probably falls under the object limit mentioned above. An explosion counts as an object. That said, "hanging" objects would be a bug. If you can reproduce this reliably on the most recent version of ST, please send me the level.

3. Subterra used to have a split-screen function. I remember playing with it on older versions. Any chance of this making it back into the code as an editor option?

I think that got lost at the time I rewrote the kernel from scratch. I suppose I should put that back at some point. I'm not sure if and when I'd have time for that, though, I'm rather busy these months.

As a final question, I would be thrilled to have elements from both ST1 and 2 in a single game. Are there any plans for a new subterra with such a formidable load of content?

This is the design principle that both games individually probably contain too many objects already. I'm not convinced that allowing all objects in one game would create better levels.

Thanks for reading. Your games have brought me hours of fun, and I'm really glad there's someone out there who is involved with their community. I hope you'll consider my requests, and keep making awesome games like Subterra.

Thanks


____________________________
= Radiant =

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

Radiant wrote:
SubTerra works on the philosophy that bigger levels aren't necessarily better levels. Also, it was written to run on what counted as low-end computers ten years ago. Because of those two reasons, it has a limit to level size as well as to objects. I don't really see the benefit in increasing those, as I don't think it affects anything except "huge skelwing explosion" levels.

So it's limited to keep the levels small? I understand that limits can impose creativity, and maybe the kind of levels I'm talking about aren't too popular with you. If you're really concerned with keeping it running on older hardware, then perhaps the limit can be placed in some sort of configuration file, so that people like me can mess around without any detriment to our friends with dated systems. If other people want to play it, they can change the limit in their configs to enjoy the levels as they're intended. None of my levels would ever make it into an official pack, so the majority of users will be protected from their requirements. I'm just trying to find a solution that works for everyone, here. I hope I'm not overstepping any boundaries.

This probably falls under the object limit mentioned above. An explosion counts as an object. That said, "hanging" objects would be a bug. If you can reproduce this reliably on the most recent version of ST, please send me the level.

Hanging objects, like objects just floating in the air? I've usually found that when this happens, it is because of an invisible element underneath. I of course, can not identify this element for what it is beyond the fact that it is invisible. There are also orange gems that sometimes cease to exist for gameplay purposes, but remain hanging in the air, and the player/objects can pass right through them. Maybe this is what you're talking about.

As for posting a level, I'm not sure if my levels would count as a reliable reproduction for you. I'm sure you could load one up and watch the world unfold, then look around to find a few examples of what I'm talking about, but I feel as though their random nature is quite a turn-off for you as it is and it could be hard to convince you of the need to fix bugs that only occur in these levels. If I'm wrong in this assumption, please let me know, and I'll be happy to throw up a level for you to take a look at.

With that sorted, I've done something with your latest version, within the limits of the game, that exposes behavior which is considered incorrect. I would think that if it were as simple as raising the limit to fix this problem (and if I'm incorrect, please let me know), most developers would want their game to be bug-free in any kind of level built within the limits of that game. You aren't most developers, though, and these decisions are solely up to you. Again, please let me know if a level like the ones I play would be considered a reliable reproduction. The bugs don't happen in the same place, but they almost always happen!

I think that got lost at the time I rewrote the kernel from scratch. I suppose I should put that back at some point. I'm not sure if and when I'd have time for that, though, I'm rather busy these months.

Understandable. You're only human and you have to manage time like everyone else. Either way I think it would be very interesting to see what the community could come up with as far as two player levels with this feature back in the game. I'll be patient, and know that you've made no guarantee.

This is the design principle that both games individually probably contain too many objects already. I'm not convinced that allowing all objects in one game would create better levels.

Fair enough. This seems like a lot more work than my other requests.

I do understand that you're an individual, and as the creator of this game, you have the right to do whatever you want.

I don't want to seem argumentative, I just want to be able to do a little more with the game. It's so great already, and I love the puzzle levels, but my friends and I have so much fun playing the levels we create with the skelwings. I know you don't see them as necessarily valid, but they can be quite a challenge and require some creative thinking to get through! Have you tried any levels using this method? We find them very enjoyable.

I'm sorry for the novel, and I don't want to pressure you. I'm just giving this my best shot. I believe that some flexibility with the limit can lend a lot more to the game I love. Best wishes, either way.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

Small levels can be fun and challenging, though.
See: Razzle Dazzle, Rooms of Confusuion, Cell Block, and any other puzzle that fits to around one screen in size. Quality, not quantity!

Also Radiant, I just discovered that ST will NOT work in windowed mode on a secondary monitor. It doesn't update.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

File: A World Is Born.SUB (6.7 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

Danjen02 wrote:
Small levels can be fun and challenging, though.
See: Razzle Dazzle, Rooms of Confusuion, Cell Block, and any other puzzle that fits to around one screen in size. Quality, not quantity!

Try this level I've uploaded. Collect the dynamite and tools and then hit the TNT lever. Hitting it again afterward will cause the barrels to explode again, but that's easy enough to address with some minor changes to the level. I haven't done much more work on it since I've hit the roadblocks I'm describing.

Instead of devising a puzzle that can be solved the same way every time, I create thousands of smaller puzzles. They're different every time you play. Each small challenge is simple to overcome in-theory, but things become complicated when these challenges begin to melt together. The end result is a hectic mix requiring both reflexive skill and dynamic problem solving. Yes, I understand that the level isn't a masterpiece of logic. There is no clear solution and it doesn't take much in the way of abstract thinking to solve. What it lacks in this area is made up for in sheer flexibility. Elements collide in endless combination to form unique challenges. Many of my friends have found it very enjoyable, friends who play the main game religiously.

It isn't conventional, it's barely within the spirit of the game, but it's a valid challenge and, in my opinion, a valid need for some problems to be corrected.

Allowing a level like this to be made without fixing the problems that can arise under such circumstances is akin to giving me a dragon with a fear of heights. I used to make levels like this all the time, some years ago under the name jockmo42. I remember that at least one person here found them very enjoyable. Now that I'm returning to the game and attempting new things with them, I'm hitting serious problems. You may notice the bugs as you play the level.

My levels don't come in packs. You don't solve one and move on to the next. You can play one level and be met with a challenge every time. I could argue that I'm far more concerned about quality than quantity.

Conventional levels are great. I've had a lot of enjoyment playing and designing them over the years. Mine may be very different, but it's my stern belief that they're every bit as interesting as the conventional level.

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-04-2010 10:05 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

It is fun to play through an abstract/"randomly" generated puzzle, because it's just so different. Yet, at the same time, it's not really structured enough. You know what I mean, like just blowing stuff up that gets in the way, rather than think your way through it. Although, it's VERY hard to design such a level that you can't get stuck in.

Cool level, by the way!

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
It is fun to play through an abstract/"randomly" generated puzzle, because it's just so different. Yet, at the same time, it's not really structured enough. You know what I mean, like just blowing stuff up that gets in the way, rather than think your way through it. Although, it's VERY hard to design such a level that you can't get stuck in.

Haha, well that really depends on how you play it. Part of the fun for me and my friends is finding out ways to get through using as little dynamite as possible, like purposefully creating lasers, or leading seekers to certain areas before causing them to explode.

Like you said, the dynamite is kind of a necessity to make sure the players have more options in cases where they'd otherwise be trapped. A degree of self-restraint may be required if you want to really test yourself (it's even required to play the level properly; Why not just run through the swarm of enemies and collect the keys before the level is even created?), but some find enough challenge in simply trying not to explode.

Danjen02 wrote:
Cool level, by the way!

Thank you! It's got some kinks to work out, but it's hard to be motivated enough to put so much time into its design when its plagued by these problems with the limit.

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-04-2010 11:38 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

You could always plug the exit of the first area with unmovable explosives to guarantee the player pushes the switch first.

Also, the floating object glitch, now that I realized what you're talking about, is when a solid wall-like object with no graphic appears. If I recall, it's usually the result of a monster's explosion and a moving object - Devils in ST2 had this happen a lot, especially with amethyst gems.

And regarding the multiple dynamite plunger bug, I think the cause of it is as follows. Firstly, the detonator has two states, on and off. They are always on by default, and once you hit it, it moves to the off state. However, since pushing it explodes all things on the map, you can push it multiple times to no effect, since they're gone, and you don't notice any apparent effects. However, once a skelwing spawns one, you can push the plunger again and it will explode it. In short, the graphic on the detonator is irrelevant - it will always explode all explosives when pressed. This of course means you could make a level based around this and skelwings.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
You could always plug the exit of the first area with unmovable explosives to guarantee the player pushes the switch first.

Yeah, and give the dynamite after they hit it so they don't blast through. I'll see how compact I can make it.

Also, the floating object glitch, now that I realized what you're talking about, is when a solid wall-like object with no graphic appears. If I recall, it's usually the result of a monster's explosion and a moving object - Devils in ST2 had this happen a lot, especially with amethyst gems.

Yeah, a little awkward. Much less concerning than the invisible lasers, though.

And regarding the multiple dynamite plunger bug, I think the cause of it is as follows. Firstly, the detonator has two states, on and off. They are always on by default, and once you hit it, it moves to the off state. However, since pushing it explodes all things on the map, you can push it multiple times to no effect, since they're gone, and you don't notice any apparent effects. However, once a skelwing spawns one, you can push the plunger again and it will explode it. In short, the graphic on the detonator is irrelevant - it will always explode all explosives when pressed. This of course means you could make a level based around this and skelwings.

I've been thinking of ways to limit it to one hit. I could probably put an explosive behind it, and place both so that the player would be unharmed and only able to hit it once. It could even block their path to the level to begin with!

Thanks for the feedback!

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-05-2010 12:41 AM]

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

thecraww wrote:my friends and I have so much fun playing the levels we create with the skelwings. I know you don't see them as necessarily valid, but they can be quite a challenge and require some creative thinking to get through! Have you tried any levels using this method?

Random levels are very rare, and good random levels are rarer still. "Magma" and "Adventurer's Question Mark" are examples of good random levels. If you want to see some bad random levels, I can upload some that I made a few years ago.

thecraww wrote:
I used to make levels like this all the time, some years ago under the name jockmo42.

You know, that name sounds at least vaguely familiar... What are some of the levels you made?

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

Technically skelwings move in a predetermined manner, and they can only be used for pseudo-random events.

Although... I wonder if it's possible to combine the bit adder/calculator type puzzle with skelwings to make a random binary number...

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

The Mystic wrote:

thecraww wrote:my friends and I have so much fun playing the levels we create with the skelwings. I know you don't see them as necessarily valid, but they can be quite a challenge and require some creative thinking to get through! Have you tried any levels using this method?

Random levels are very rare, and good random levels are rarer still. "Magma" and "Adventurer's Question Mark" are examples of good random levels. If you want to see some bad random levels, I can upload some that I made a few years ago.

thecraww wrote:
I used to make levels like this all the time, some years ago under the name jockmo42.

You know, that name sounds at least vaguely familiar... What are some of the levels you made?

Hahaha, jockmo42 probably sounds familiar because he's the creator of Adventures Question Mark (It's named after some flash I watched in middle school, Adventurer's Question Mark actually makes a lot more sense). I'm completely flattered, man. Thanks a lot. I posted the levels in the submission thread a couple years back (at least that's how long it feels like). I tried to log back into that account when I returned, but I forgot my password and the email it's attached to is gone.

Every time I load them up I find myself tweaking parts of the map. Every different version I spammed you guys with has its own quirks. I'm back into the game now and trying to find the best set of elements I can, combined with the best map design I can find (for this kind of level, anyway). Still learning a lot, but it'd be great if I had more room to work with in the editor, you know?

That's why I'm here, bugging Radiant for changes just like old times. Though I have to admit that I grew up a little between then and now.

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-05-2010 06:02 AM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

An idea for really unique maps is to look at the master object list (F2) and look at interesting interactions. For example, drakes destroy balloons, and they can escape from the blast of a mine, but not a bomb. Slimeys and spiders can ascend with a balloon. Most (but not all!) monsters change 4-way selector tiles. That kind of stuff.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Well, it's not that I dislike random puzzles, but I don't see how making a random puzzle four times larger than it is now makes it all that much more interesting.

____________________________
= Radiant =

thecraww
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 12-01-2010
IP: Logged

Radiant wrote:
Well, it's not that I dislike random puzzles, but I don't see how making a random puzzle four times larger than it is now makes it all that much more interesting.

If you don't dislike the puzzles outright, then I don't see how allowing such things is realistically detrimental to anyone. If it fixes some of the worst problems that I'm having, and allows everyone more options in the editor, why not make it happen?

You've purposefully limited the entities in the game, right? This implies that the entity limit can be easily changed. If this is true then there can't be much effort required on your part to do so. I'm not saying that you're abstaining simply because you're lazy, I'm just saying that it doesn't seem as though this change requires too much work to spend time on.

People will not realistically encounter levels that their hardware cannot handle because as you said, the game was built for what was considered dated hardware ten years ago. People with hardware ill-equipped to handle large levels are likely few and far between. Still, even if this turns out to be a problem, any level that is too taxing on hardware will probably be a level like mine, which won't make it into any official packs. The only way someone will be able to stress their hardware is by choosing to download a level that does so. One level that they only have to try once to know if their computer can handle it.

All I'm asking for is the limit to be substantially raised, or to let players modify it on their own. Yes, this would allow larger levels and yes, that would make me very happy, but it would also allow me to minimize problems that already occur in my levels. Bugs aside, a higher density of enemies would leave less room for the initial explosions to miss, reducing the occurrence of untriggered portions in the level and increasing the variety of combinations.

I can't see why you wouldn't allow this simply because you don't find the outcome interesting. Especially when it means that some of the bugs in these levels can be avoided.

My friends and I really love what your game has allowed us to do, and I hope that one day, we'll be able to do even more. In any case, you're the developer, and I admire you for doing what you think is best.

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[Last edited by thecraww at 12-07-2010 02:11 AM]