Keiji2
Level: Roachling
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Well, I doubt anyone remembers, but ages ago, I announced a game in the spirit of SubTerra, which I was working on in Game Maker.

I have since lost the source to that game, and I have no idea how, because all my other GM projects exist in about seven copies in various backups, yet this one seems to have left no trace. Anyway, the good news is I am starting from scratch on an engine in C using SDL.

My eventual aim is to implement every object from SubTerra and SubTerra II, so that they can both be used in the same level, and then go on to add new objects and new features that were originally in the GM version.

Attached is a very early test build. And I mean very early - I only started working on it today! The map is 8x8, and wraps, so as this is smaller than the window you get to see multiple copies of it. I'm also aware that you can push something from behind a crate - this is just a test of the pushing system and the proper SubTerra behavior will be implemented soon enough.

The other reason behind making this topic is aimed at Radiant and is pretty obvious: is it okay to use these graphics? If so, perhaps you could just release the raw tiles somewhere, since they're incredibly annoying to capture from the game - I have to print screen, quit and paste, which isn't too bad for tiles that appear in the level editor's palette but is next to impossible for anything animated such as the player, which is why the player tiles are the crappy GM example ones.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 01-17-2011 06:47 AM]

Radiant
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Keiji2 wrote:
The other reason behind making this topic is aimed at Radiant and is pretty obvious: is it okay to use these graphics?

No, I'm afraid not, for reasons of copyright. I would suggest doing a google search for free images, there are plenty of those on the internet.


____________________________
= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 02-08-2010 12:03 AM]

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
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...Well, that was blunt.

Sounds like you aren't particularly happy with the concept of this game, let alone using the graphics

Radiant
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Yes, that was blunt. Sorry about that, I was just editing my message to become less blunt when you had already read it.

I'm quite happy with anyone making a SubTerrish puzzle game (just like SubTerra itself draws inspiration from e.g. Boulder Dash and Supaplex), but most of the graphics and music in the game are neither owned by me nor in the public domain, so I cannot give you permission to use them.

____________________________
= Radiant =

Keiji2
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Okay, a bit of improvisation and borrowing from GM8's resources and my own SVG icons later, here's a new version using no ST graphics.

Pity the explosive barrel doesn't look too explosive any more. And that there's now only one starburst frame.

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
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Hey Keiji.
Any game like Subterra sounds interesting, and you have my support.
As far as graphics goes, it would be well worth your while finding an artist or two for your graphics, plus someone good at animating.


____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
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wonkyth wrote:
As far as graphics goes, it would be well worth your while finding an artist or two for your graphics, plus someone good at animating.

Found one.

I took a few drawing classes when I was in college, and could try making a handful of graphics. Nothing too fancy, mind you; I'll be the first to admit that I'd never make a career as a professional artist.

How large do you want the graphics to be, and how many frames were you planning to use for animations?

In the meantime, I'll start work on some portals.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
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Registered: 02-07-2010
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At the moment I'm anticipating using the same style of graphics as SubTerra - 32x32, magic pink transparency (no 8-bit alpha), eight frames of rotation for rolling things and four frames per direction for creatures. The explosion should be eight frames, the starburst five frames, but I haven't yet decided for any other objects.

At some point, I will probably want to create an HD version, in which case graphics would be 64x64 with full 8-bit alpha as 32-bit PNGs. It's something to bear in mind if you want to create those sprites at the same time, though.

In any case, thanks for your help. Replacements for all the SubTerra and STII objects would be appreciated, especially if you can release them into the public domain.

Priorities would be those sprites which I don't already have that I need for the Skelwing Hunter mode: player, brown and blue transmuters, duplicator, clone machines, conveyor belts, teleporter, egg, spikeball (behaves as the SubTerra skull orb), and of course the skelwing (in four colors: orange, blue, red and black).

Those which I have (albeit not so good) graphics for at the moment are walls (including fragile wall, star activator wall, and wall containing diamond), crate, pillow, explosives, rock, diamond, emerald, ruby, quantum stone, bomb, explosion and starburst.

On a vaguely related note, where did the name "Skelwing" come from? Google doesn't come up with anything immediately obvious.

Danjen02
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Keiji2 wrote:
On a vaguely related note, where did the name "Skelwing" come from? Google doesn't come up with anything immediately obvious.

I would think it was a portmanteau of "skeleton wing", give that it's a flying skull.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
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File: portal1.bmp (12.1 KB)
Downloaded 57 times.
License: Public Domain

Keiji2 wrote:
At the moment I'm anticipating using the same style of graphics as SubTerra - 32x32, magic pink transparency (no 8-bit alpha), eight frames of rotation for rolling things and four frames per direction for creatures. The explosion should be eight frames, the starburst five frames, but I haven't yet decided for any other objects.

At some point, I will probably want to create an HD version, in which case graphics would be 64x64 with full 8-bit alpha as 32-bit PNGs. It's something to bear in mind if you want to create those sprites at the same time, though.

That's good to know. All the graphics I plan to post will be 24-bit bitmaps; I'll let you add in any transparencies, alpha, etc., since I don't know how to do that. I won't make any creature graphics, however, since they turn out horrible for me.

Replacements for all the SubTerra and STII objects would be appreciated, especially if you can release them into the public domain.

Anything I post here will be free to use by anyone on this forum for any game; just give credit where credit is due, and when in doubt, ask.

Priorities would be those sprites which I don't already have that I need for the Skelwing Hunter mode: player, brown and blue transmuters, duplicator, clone machines, conveyor belts, teleporter, egg, spikeball (behaves as the SubTerra skull orb), and of course the skelwing (in four colors: orange, blue, red and black).

The player and skelwing graphics are out, but I'll see what I can do with the rest. And by "teleporter" I'm assuming you mean "portal," which is what I was working on after I last posted on this thread.

Those which I have (albeit not so good) graphics for at the moment are walls (including fragile wall, star activator wall, and wall containing diamond), crate, pillow, explosives, rock, diamond, emerald, ruby, quantum stone, bomb, explosion and starburst.

Could I see a sheet with all those graphics? From what I've seen so far, the starburst isn't all that bad, but could do with a bit of sprucing up.

In the meantime, here's a sample of the portal I was working on before, as a 32x32 24-bit bitmap. As I said earlier, feel free to set the transparency, alpha, etc. I meant it to replace the graphic for the ST1 portal.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

Could I see a sheet with all those graphics? From what I've seen so far, the starburst isn't all that bad, but could do with a bit of sprucing up.

The latest build (attached) has all the objects mentioned (look in the "data" folder).

I'll let you add in any transparencies, alpha, etc., since I don't know how to do that.

It's a lot harder to add alpha transparency than to remove it, which is why I'm just using no alpha for everything, for consistency. So I won't be adding any alpha.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 02-10-2010 02:58 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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That's kinda neat. A little distracting the way the screen is repeated 4 times, though. Also, if things are falling in an "object space object" pattern, it is impossible to push things (like a crate) between them like in ST.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
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That's because in SubTerra objects are (presumably) processed with some kind of priority, with the player and anything they're pushing first. In this engine, objects are processed according to their position on the map - left to right, top to bottom. You can't step under a column of falling rocks because whenever the reserved space is clear it then immediately gets reserved by the rock above it, which is by definition further up than you would be.

I suppose introducing a priority system where non-falling objects could begin moving into reserved spaces while falling objects cannot would allow you to push a crate into a stream of falling rocks, but it's not something I particularly want to do right now...


There was also a bug in earlier builds where you could push a rock to the right through free space until it got to the point where the level wrapped, where it'd finally fall down, but you couldn't push it to the left in the same conditions. This was also due to the objects being processed in map order, and I worked around it by checking whether there was anything under the rock before allowing you to push it (there has always been a check that in order to start pushing something, it must currently be stationary).

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
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File: skel.zip (263.7 KB)
Downloaded 57 times.
License: Other

Latest version adds the bar at the top with a gem counter on it. Though this gem counter counts upwards, I'm not sure whether I want to duplicate SubTerra gem counter behavior or use a fraction of collected/required.

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
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Keiji2 wrote:

I'll let you add in any transparencies, alpha, etc., since I don't know how to do that.

It's a lot harder to add alpha transparency than to remove it, which is why I'm just using no alpha for everything, for consistency. So I won't be adding any alpha.

I found (or more accurately, forgot I had it, then rediscovered on my backup hard drive) a freeware program called IrfranView, which apparently can add transparency to some file formats. From what I can tell, you just indicate which color to use when you save the file.

In the meantime, I'll dust off any other graphics editors I may have lying around, and work on some more objects.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

---

[Last edited by The Mystic at 02-13-2010 03:28 AM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
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The Mystic wrote:
I found (or more accurately, forgot I had it, then rediscovered on my backup hard drive) a freeware program called IrfranView, which apparently can add transparency to some file formats. From what I can tell, you just indicate which color to use when you save the file.

In the meantime, I'll dust off any other graphics editors I may have lying around, and work on some more objects.

For graphic editing I recommend GraphicsGale, which is a free editor that supports frames (for gifs), transparencies, and is like a mini-photoshop in several regards. Of course, photoshop is great if you can get it. There's a freeware program that's like a free a free (and apparently better) photoshop, from what I've heard, but the name escapes me at the moment.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

---

[Last edited by Danjen02 at 02-13-2010 05:07 AM]

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
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I found (or more accurately, forgot I had it, then rediscovered on my backup hard drive) a freeware program called IrfranView, which apparently can add transparency to some file formats. From what I can tell, you just indicate which color to use when you save the file.

That isn't alpha - it's just picking a transparent color. This game simply uses magic pink (i.e. RGB 255, 0, 255) as the transparent color, so it's the same thing.

Real alpha transparency involves giving each pixel an opacity value, ranging between 0 (totally transparent) to 255 (totally opaque). This is very hard to do unless your source image is either in vector format, or in a very scaled-up raster format (at least four times the size in each dimension).

There's a freeware program that's like a free a free (and apparently better) photoshop, from what I've heard, but the name escapes me at the moment.

http://gimp.org/

I use it regularly, for all sorts of things. It's a great program.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 02-13-2010 03:32 PM]

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
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For graphic editing I recommend GraphicsGale

GraphicsGale is great for lower-res stuff, and is probably the best pixel-art program currently around(although there are a few good free ones in development, including AGSketch)
GG is also great for animating pixel-art, with onion-skinning and frameswapping.
As far as Alpha Channels go, I'm pretty sure that some programs(possebly GIMP) can remove alpha channels alpha at the drop of a hat, and can probably replace/place it in a similar manner.

In the meantime, I'll dust off any other graphics editors I may have lying around

All the Paint Programs You'll Ever Need...

I'll be happy to help in any way I can, but I'm kinda swamped with school at the moment.


____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

wonkyth wrote:

In the meantime, I'll dust off any other graphics editors I may have lying around

All the Paint Programs You'll Ever Need...

Thanks!

I already have the free edition of Ultimate Paint, plus MS Paint, IrfanView, and a freeware tile editor called sTile.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

If anyone's interested, I've got a fairly in-depth page about it up now: http://oxygen.teamikaria.com/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Skelwing+Hunter

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 07-18-2010 06:43 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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In the interest of putting some life back into these forums, how is this coming along?

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

I'd like to hear any updates as well, although Radiant would probably prefer it if discussion was moved somewhere else, perhaps a site of your own?
As this is one of the few games I'm interested in the development of, it would be great to see a development blog/forum.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

Hi,

I haven't been working on the game itself as such since my last post, but since my University term ended a couple of weeks ago I've been working on Oxygen (which is basically MediaRunner renamed). I am currently working on the raster engine for it, and once that's done (shouldn't take too long) I will be porting another game of mine that I've been wanting to revive for quite a while, but I should return to working on this game once that's working.

TL;DR: I don't work on this project all the time as I have other things to do as well; hopefully there should be some progress soon, though I won't give any dates.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 04-22-2010 12:56 PM]

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
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Hi again,

Well, it's been awhile (again!), due to other events in my life I had to stop working on Oxygen again for a while, however, about a week ago I restarted work on the project and today I've successfully got Skelwing Hunter ported to Oxygen. I'll be writing a level editor shortly and maybe add some new objects, then there'll be another release. It won't be too long now

Edit:

The source for Oxygen v0.2 is now released here, which happens to contain SH. It won't be playable without a level file though, so don't bother downloading unless you are actually interested in the source code. I'll post again when I've actually made that level editor.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 07-20-2010 05:27 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
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Nice to see you're still dedicated to a project.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

Finally got over the hurdles.

Early screenshot of level editor:


(Yes, capital "S" is /still/ missing from the font. Please don't moan about that.)

So yes, there will be a playable release soon. As soon as I get saving/loading working and perhaps some more objects.

SH will eventually include every object from both SubTerra 1 & 2 (plus new ones of my own). But not until I have graphics for them. So if you want your favorite object in the game, sending me suitable sprites (32x32 PNG, no jpegs!) would be a big help. I'll only accept images licensed as PD, CC-BY, CC-BY-NC, CC-BY-SA or CC-BY-NC-SA.

Some nice animated player sprites (as opposed to the rubbish placeholder ones) would be nice, and a cleaner looking rock sprite would also be nice. Currently in the game (same as last time, but I never posted the list in the topic):
Tiles:
- Square wall
- Round wall
- Left-rounded wall
- Right-rounded wall
- Fragile wall (removed by falling rocks)
- Star block (removes fragile walls)
- Square wall (left-rounded inverted)
- Square wall (right-rounded inverted)
Objects:
- [Star effect]
- Player entry
- Rock
- Diamond (1 point)
- Emerald (3 points)
- Ruby (5 points plus laser)
- Crate
- Explosives
- Pillow (keeps bombs from exploding)
- Quantum stone (splits)
- Bomb

I also have another question for Radiant: could you explain how the SUB/ST2 format works? Since I plan to include all the objects from both games, I'd like to allow importing (and possibly exporting) SUB/ST2 files. (And I hope you don't think I'm trying to rip you off here...)

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

Keiji2 wrote:
SH will eventually include every object from both SubTerra 1 & 2 (plus new ones of my own). But not until I have graphics for them. So if you want your favorite object in the game, sending me suitable sprites (32x32 PNG, no jpegs!) would be a big help.

Could you post a list of graphics you either don't have or would like improved? I can't guarantee anything (although I do have an idea for the grenade), but it would help to see your graphics wish list.

I'll only accept images licensed as PD, CC-BY, CC-BY-NC, CC-BY-SA or CC-BY-NC-SA.

I'm a bit behind (okay, way behind) on my acronyms. I'm assuming "PD" is "public domain," but could you translate the rest?

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

The "graphics wish list" is basically everything in ST/ST2 apart from what's on the list I posted, plus the player and rock sprites because they're awful at the moment. So, just draw whatever objects you want to see in the game, because the coding side of things is (in most cases) easy.

That said, the Skelwing Hunt mode uses a much smaller set of objects, so you could consider this a wish list:
- Skelwing (obviously)
- Cryo bird
- Egg
- Clone machine
- Duplicator
- Transmuter
- Teleport gate
- Conveyor belts
- Dynamite

Yes, PD is public domain. The rest are Creative Commons licenses which are explained here. Basically, as long as you don't use the ND (No Derivative Works) clause, any CC license is fine.

Radiant
Level: Moderator

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Keiji2 wrote:
I also have another question for Radiant: could you explain how the SUB/ST2 format works?

Very easy. One array for level data, one struct for auxilary data like time limit and gem quota, and one array for the demo. I don't remember the details since I wrote that over ten years ago.

____________________________
= Radiant =

Keiji2
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 02-07-2010
IP: Logged

Well, I had a look in a hex editor, but I thought it must be compressed somehow, as I have a mostly empty maximum size level but I don't see a huge length of zeroes anywhere =p So, I thought I'd ask.

But if you don't remember and you don't mind me poking around I guess I'll have to try a little harder reverse engineering this format...

A quick check: assuming 1 byte per tile, a 128*128 map would take 16kB uncompressed, but all of my level files are under 3kB.

Edit: Yeah, there must be some compression. Even just re-saving the file without changing anything generates a completely different bytestream.

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[Last edited by Keiji2 at 09-15-2010 03:47 PM]