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Do you use extra resources (pen and paper, spreadsheets, caculators etc) for DROD RPG
Yes all the time
Just the occasional note or calcuation
Nope, just my brains
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NiroZ
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icon Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+1)  
I recently had a chat with someone (who promised to make a post explaining how he does it, but in case he cannot for any reason, I'm leaving him nameless, just so he doesn't have his name borne for all eternity as promising to do something), who is convinced that not only does it make it easier, but it also makes it more fun, to use a spreadsheet to chronicle and compute his progress.

Now I'm intrigued, as I'm someone who firmly believes that the best way to enjoy a game is the way the designer intended, perhaps writing things down if one must for the sake of memory retention, but nothing more. So I have some questions.

Do you use things other than the program itself (DROD RPG) in order to help you solve it?
Is it, in the strictest sense of the word, cheating? (For example, would it be akin to making an external program, or finding one online, that could numbercrunch DROD rooms and find the shortest answer. Even if the specific aim of the program isn't to numbercrunch DROD rooms)
Is it more enjoyable using external tools?
If so should mrimer incorporate some external tools (such as a spreadsheet or a notepad) into the game itself, so that everybody enjoys them, or even if they're not, are they so vital that you have to use them?
08-16-2009 at 06:08 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+4)  
I will note that the most popular tool (for reasons that will be explained) is the spreadsheet in the DROD RPG - Basic Optimizing thread (the spreadsheet was created by Rabscuttle and added to slightly by Nuntar, so I've linked to the most recent version of it).

When dealing with heavy DROD RPG optimization, there are two extra unstated pieces of information that are nice to keep track of. The first are the ATK Goals. That is, the next value of ATK you need to get to in order to reduce the damage from a specific monster. If you're playing DROD RPG without making any outside calculations at all, then you're limited to finding a Power Gem, trekking halfway across a hold, and then seeing if the specific monster does any less damage. But if you *do* make the calculation (which is a relatively simple mathematical formula that you *could* just plug in the numbers from notes you keep of monster stats), then you can figure out *before* you take the Power Gem exactly how much extra ATK you need.

A particular Power Gem is, in fact, useless to you if it does not let you reach an ATK Goal required to take less damage as you make your way to your next goal. Of course, you still have to figure out when the best time to take any particular Power Gem is: obviously, if a Power Gem is free then there's pretty much no question about it. But if it's time limited or requires resources that might be better spent elsewhere... well, maybe it could be put off til later.

As a quick example of this... imagine you had 200 ATK and wanted to kill a Rattlesnake as your next goal. There's several Power Gems and Shield Gems scattered around the area, and you're wondering which would be best to go for. Well, the next ATK Goal happens to be 220. That is, you'd need 220 ATK to reduce the number of hits the Rattlesnake deals to you from 6 to 5. So if there was not enough Power Gems to reach that... well, you'd know that it's not worthwhile trying to get them before taking on the Rattlesnake. (Of course, it might be worthwhile to take them to get a higher score if there was a Score Checkpoint nearby, but that's another decision entirely.)

===

The second unstated piece of information is used to help figure out when Shield Gems are worth it: Hit Count, or rather, how many damaging hits you've taken since any particular juncture. There's no spreadsheet for this - it's something you just have to keep track of yourself. Frequently, a Shield Gem may not be worth the trouble to get to it. Whether it is or not depends on how much damage it blocks from here until whenever future goal you care to state. A Shield Gem is worth it for score if the amount of damage it blocks plus other rewards that came with it outweigh the resources you spent to get there. And it's worth it for survivability if at some future goal, you end up in a similar non-zero state with more HP than you would've if you didn't take the gem.

So, say you have to spend a Yellow Key (10 points) to collect a +1 DEF Shield Gem (3 points). The Shield Gem will finally become worthwhile from a score perspective once you have taken 280 HP less damage from enemies (or 280 hits, since it was only a +1 DEF gem). Of course, the exact calculations are more complicated than that, especially for higher DEF values, because enemies that you already completely defend against don't count, and enemies that would only require a few extra points of DEF would only count for the required DEF to reach 0. So, again, you tend to make a Hit Count as a rough general guide, since it's difficult to use it in a precise manner.

===

So that's two bits of rather important information that are not provided by the game. They weren't provided by Tower of the Sorcerer either, for that manner. But one thing that most DROD RPG holds have over TotS is a lack of density... that is, whilst you make the same amount of choices, you often have to walk a lot farther to test things out. So taking notes and making calculations become more and more important: it's useful to remember where all the Power Gems you haven't collected yet are, or highlight difficult monsters and leave yourself an idea of when it might be best to return and look at it again.

These are also methods that I'm sure Mike used when playing TotS: it was very important to know what you needed to cause enemies to hit you less often, especially from an optimization perspective (which Mike was involved in).

I'll note that you'll still be using some trial and error, even with your note taking. Investigating how the balance of stat trading is expressed through the hold is not a trivial task, and the quickest way to test it is simply to play the hold. But if you go in there with some possible goals in mind, then the choices you make become more informed, and you can concoct more detailed strategies. And you may, of course, find that even they don't work from time to time -- maybe you should've saved that Yellow Key instead of collecting that Shield Gem, despite the fact that it allowed you to save more HP up til now.

And one other place that note taking helps is in recording what you've already tried. I've taken to keeping Journals of many of my routes so that on future replays, I have rough ideas of how I went through the hold (which can sometimes lead to further optimization as I play through, though updating the journal tends to be a bit of hassle at that point). There's been requests to automate this information from the saved demos, which would be very useful, especially in testing and sharing solutions.

So all in all, there are definite cases where simple note taking and calculations help you solve a puzzle more effectively. No, I don't see this as cheating: you're not having the puzzle solved *for* you. This is about recording *extra* information and calculations from the data provided for you and then making decisions *yourself* on how best to use it. It's far less cheating than using an automatic pathfinding algorithm to discover a route through an Arrow Maze (which, for the record, DROD RPG allows you to do ^_^).

In short, it's the difference between working your way through a massive trapdoor maze through trial and error, and printing out a screenshot and drawing pretty lines using logic and deduction. They're both valid methods of solving the puzzle, and there's shades of gray between the two methods (nothing's stopping you from doing all the logic and deduction in your head without making notes), but I know I certainly have more fun finally working out that one particular choice I make is the best possible choice in the situation.
08-16-2009 at 12:57 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+1)  
TFMurphy is of course right about the importance of ATK goals, but I still prefer to do all the necessary calculation and keeping track in my head. It's far from being cheating -- it's attempting to solve the puzzles in the way they were meant to be solved, by deducing the best possible path to take from the information given. If you can't do these sorts of calculations then solving holds becomes largely a process of trial-and-error. So I have absolutely no problem with people using external means such as spreadsheets or calculators to help with this calculation process if they feel they need it.

As for whether external tools should be incorporated into the program, the Journal sounds extremely useful if it could be implemented -- it would make it much easier to give helpful hints for a puzzle, or recreate your previous progress if you've forgotten how you reached a certain point. I really don't want calculation of ATK goals to be incorporated, though -- that would feel too much like the program was holding my hand because it didn't trust me to do this on my own.

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08-16-2009 at 04:06 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (0)  
Well, I'd prefer to use a spreadsheet over my head. TFMurphy explained the reasons better than I could so I think I'll stop here.

And I don't think it's cheating either. Delegating the calculation part to a spreadsheet means that I have more time to decide whether I should choose the path that costs me some HP, or the other path that costs me a key.

That being said, I finished Tendry's Tale without a spreadsheet (obviously).

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08-17-2009 at 03:12 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (0)  
In this forum, we complain about WoW whenever it comes up while talking about how you should have spreadsheets to play DROD: RPG.


wat.

[Last edited by Banjooie at 08-17-2009 04:46 AM]
08-17-2009 at 04:45 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Do you need spreadsheets to play WoW?
08-17-2009 at 05:21 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+1)  
At the absolute, top end level, there are spreadsheets to help with gear choices, yeah. This is often trotted out as something inherently wrong with the game.

This is being discussed as if it is a practical requirement to play DROD: RPG.

Meanwhile, we all wonder why DROD 'doesn't appeal to the masses.'
08-17-2009 at 09:32 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+3)  
I'm not sure that I'd describe this forum as anti-WOW (although as I'm not interested in it, I'm unlikely to remember stuff.)

But it sounds like a fair analogy. I would argue that spreadsheets are not required to play through the game normally - I think the DROD:RPG levels (of the official holds) are mostly self contained, so you can scan about with the minimap to see where you can go etc. And the official hold is not so tight that you have to be perfect to get through.

But if you want to do more advanced stuff - try to get a high score, or beat the secret stuff, or play an evil hold, or powerlevel or high-end raid, then a spreadsheet (or note taking etc) will probably make things easier.

The point where spreadsheet becomes useful is at a lower level for DROD:RPG, but that's because it's a puzzle game. A puzzle game that is more blatantly about the numbers than something like WoW (which I'd guess is one of the reasons people object to the high end stuff?)

--

I suspect there's an arms race going on between designer and player in both cases too. If designers know that players are using certain tools, techniques or tricks, then they can create situations that are challenging even if you are using those tools (and near impossible if you're not)
Appealing to the masses is making sure you give the masses the easily palatable stuff (at first). (I might expand on this in the relevant thread.)


08-17-2009 at 11:16 AM
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Daneel
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+1)  
I keep track of the locations of all items that I have not picked up and how much it costs to get them. This means that at some point in the future I can say "oh I really need a yellow key... I can get one in 2N for 30 greckles and a fight with a roach."
08-17-2009 at 08:56 PM
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NiroZ
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I can slightly see why having upon right click 'you need X attack to reduce the number of hits this monster will get' would be a little like baby sitting. Personally I'd find it useful. Perhaps people are just too used to the way things are.

But anyway, I think there's a better way to go about this. Redo the plus screen. The screen that pops up when you press +. (which I presume nobody uses, as right click does exactly the same)
Rather than just list the monsters in the room, it could list every monster encountered in the hold so far, hopefully using a second player file that autosaves, so that if you get into the last room and am stuck with the boss, it can still preserve it's stats so that while your playing the rest of the hold, you can still check on what the bosses stats were.

Furthermore, it would of course calculate how much attack would be needed to decrease the number of attacks a monster makes, as well as how much hp that would save (something currently missing from the spreasheet), given your current defense. Furthermore, it should have text field for storing notes. Which can either be general or specifically tied to a monster.

There should also be a room viewer, which again, saves every time you enters a new room, so if you current playthrough hasn't visited a room, you can still check on it. This would still list monster info for that room, as well as if there are brains, and their effects.
There should also be an option to remove all monsters & tar from the room, in order to reveal items and pressure plates. As well as a 'as it looks now' and 'what it looked like originally'. Again with a notepad for each room.
Furthermore, you should be able to plot out the game ahead by double clicking on things in a room, which would 'take' or 'attack' them. Which would then show what your hypothetical score would be, and what your stats would be. It would also put checkpoint on top of that monster, which could be removed by double clicking again. Things would be calculated in the order taken, and remembered across rooms (although there should be a 'unselect all option.) This would be really useful when there's an item 2 levels down that might effect something, like if getting a bunch of attack gems would be better than defense gems. For little things, like seeing if getting that power gem helps with that monster, it would be pointless. But to see if killing that monster, thus getting attach gem, potion and key, allowing you to attack that monster and get other things which allow you to get some other things. Sure, you could do that in the game itself, but for forgetful people like me, this would be very useful.
08-17-2009 at 10:41 PM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (0)  
A lot of those ideas seem overly complex.

And I use the + key all of the time. My major motion is with keyboard control, as Ctrl {arrow} will speed through previously solved rooms.

If anything, I'd like a "you need +X attack" screen with the next monster that would be effected (ties would also be shown) stored in a separate screen linked to by the - button.

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08-17-2009 at 11:52 PM
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Tahnan
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I said that I use a spreadsheet "all the time", which is a little misleading, because I don't really play RPG that much. But mostly, I use the spreadsheet because I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the way RPG works, and I need all the external help I can get.
08-18-2009 at 07:03 AM
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eb0ny
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I use a spreadsheet for ATK targets, but do the rest myself.

You know what would be useful? Being able to see the rooms in other levels without physically going there. Unlike in DROD, here the entire hold matters in you are shooting for that hi-score, not to mention it is a convenient way to spot that ATK gem you missed.
A listbox with level names could appear when the player clicks on the minimap.

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[Last edited by eb0ny at 08-18-2009 07:35 AM]
08-18-2009 at 07:30 AM
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Tim
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icon Re: Using additional tools in DROD RPG (+1)  
I should add some disclaimers here why I'm using a spreadsheet:

* As a HA, I'm more interested in the fact that a hold (level set) is completable rather than fun. I'm sure it's more fun playing without a spreadsheet and do it all in your head, but I'm afraid I don't have that luxury.

* Tendry's Tale was designed to be very lenient, and finishable without very complex bookkeeping. Most of the holds I've seen in the RPG architecture boards are, erm, not designed that way. O:-

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08-18-2009 at 09:10 AM
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Lamkin
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I've given this some thought (ouch!), and I think if one truly takes pleasure in working with spreadsheets—as opposed to me, who would almost rather undergo an agonizing root canal if offered a choice—then yeah, I'd say that RPG might actually be more enjoyable using one.
And I don't really think it's cheating, per se, but I'm still on the fence about that.
08-20-2009 at 10:32 PM
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