ErikH2000
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New policy for the forum...

Don't post about usage of illegal drugs--for or against.

I really don't like to do this, but there's a few things to consider:
1. We've got kids here, and I don't want them influenced unfavorably.
2. We've got parents of kids here, and I don't want them freaking out.
3. Given 1 and 2, can we really have a decent, honest conversation about drugs anyhow?

Now, at the same time I am worried about erring too far on the side of censorship. I have an idea for a new "Adults" board for 18 years and older members. You would have to be phone-verified before gaining access. On that board, you could talk about a broader range of subjects without fear of warping some young person's fragile little head. What do you think?

-Erik

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DiMono
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I have a forum on every board I set up that I call "The Boiler Room" which is specifically for heated or controversial topics. I guess you're thinking of pretty much the same thing. I support the idea, as it makes sure people know what they're getting in to. How would phone verification work though? You call us up, and if we sound macho then we're in? I mean, where would that leave Michael Jackson?

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Oneiromancer
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I don't think we want anything about DROD really geared towards anything "Adult" oriented. It might imply too many things to the wrong people. And a phone call isn't the best way to verify either...if the poster "sounds" young, they undoubtedly have a friend that doesn't.

There are tons of message boards that aren't required to have an "Adult" section. These boards are moderated, and if necessary some kind of "bad-word" filter could be implemented, although that's never been a real problem and I don't know if it ever would be.

Considering how many kids go through DARE-type programs nowadays, I'm pretty sure they will know at least something about drugs to make their own informed decisions. And don't worry that the previous thread was going to turn into some pro-drug rally...I had a fun rebuttal to DiMono's post that won't happen now, I guess.

(Although, Erik, I guess I would appreciate you sending off an e-mail to us mods about what is appropriate and what is not. I mean, obviously step-by-step instructions on how to shoot up heroin is bad, or explicit language or sexual references, but I didn't see too much wrong with DiMono's post. But, that's why we have multiple mods.)

Game on,

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DiMono
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Instead of verification, maybe a disclaimer page, and let the user decide if they really want to enter the room, knowing that controversial topics would be covered in it. On the other hand, I don't really see many such topics coming from this group, as we're all sort of on the same page content-wise, so it's probably not worth the time.

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ErikH2000
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I don't think we want anything about DROD really geared towards anything "Adult" oriented. It might imply too many things to the wrong people.

Well, at the least, we would call it something besides "Adult" to remove some of the mystique and seamy connotations. And we can come up with a description that doesn't promote posting dirty jokes and sexy pics.

And a phone call isn't the best way to verify either...if the poster "sounds" young, they undoubtedly have a friend that doesn't.

It's not foolproof, but should keep really young kids away. I can basically tell over the phone if somebody's past puberty. If somebody's say... 15 and sounds mature, then no, I won't be able to tell they aren't 18, but I don't care so much about older teens getting in.

There are tons of message boards that aren't required to have an "Adult" section. These boards are moderated, and if necessary some kind of "bad-word" filter could be implemented, although that's never been a real problem and I don't know if it ever would be.

Sure we can keep things from getting talked about, but the desirable thing is to have a place where conversation can be more open. I wouldn't express my moderate viewpoint on this topic in front of younger listeners. They don't have the life experience to interpret it correctly. The solution might really be just to not talk about certain things here, because it's primarily a forum about a game, and there's many other forums where it works fine to have honest conversations about drugs, sex, and other adult topics. I dislike fake, preachy, hypocritical discussion as much as I want to keep a nice, safish place for kids to hang out in. I don't think you can balance honesty with responsible protectiveness--you lose out on one or the other.

(Although, Erik, I guess I would appreciate you sending off an e-mail to us mods about what is appropriate and what is not. I mean, obviously step-by-step instructions on how to shoot up heroin is bad, or explicit language or sexual references, but I didn't see too much wrong with DiMono's post. But, that's why we have multiple mods.)

Yeah, I guess I don't know everything like that ahead of time. I suppose we could have talked about it first. I was just immediately concerned about where the discussion was going in that topic.

-Erik

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Drizzo
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I don't much care one way or another.

I restrain myself often due to what I consider to be appropriate content, but that's probably a good thing, and is probably helpful to keep me relating properly with polite society.

That being said, there's other forums where I can find dirty jokes, and share my own, or discuss the proper way to shoot heroin (mix peanut butter with it and you wont get any bloodborne pathogens) and I would hate to see what is an intelligent and clean community become anything else.

I know I've probably stepped somewhat beyond the realm of decency more than most folk, but would take no offense at any censorship applied to me, and in general I try not to write anything that any intelligent and independent-minded 12 year old shouldn't hear. But my judgment is wrong, more often than not.

Much love to the DROD.net forums, and may they bring me laughter and intelligent discussion at least until I am declared Emperor of Florida.

- Andre

P.S. As an afterthought, being a philosopher I often find it necessary or helpful to use more extreme examples to illustrate some sort of ethical concept or other such thing. While I would not like to see any trouble or mere toilet humor proliferate on this board, more adult section does have its positives. So I give a big old useless vote on both sides.



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RoboBob3000
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I dunno, I feel like an adult section would:
A) Look questionable on the board and
B) Never ever get used

How many "adult" things have we really had posted on this board? OK, sure, I don't read every single post that gets posted, but this board is first and foremost a board for DROD, is it not? I don't feel like we need to extend it too far beyond that. A simple suggestion to post appropriate things should be enough to do the trick 90% of the time.

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gamer_extreme_101
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I don't know about the idea.....instead, couldn't you just set age limits on certain posts so, if a 12 year old logs on and tries to view it, it would just be denied?

I don't know if that would work, but it's an idea

I'd also like to say this - I'm 15, go to a high school in Canada, and I've heard things that ADULTS don't even do or talk about. People, espesially teens and younger, find out stuff somehow. Its all about how you view it. I know a lot of people who do drugs, and have even been offered some, yet I am smart enough not to do any of it. I say if you do that, don't let guests in for sure, and set an age limit of 12. That's my opinion, just remember...they will find a way.

[Edited by gamer_extreme_101 on 04-17-2004 at 07:36 PM GMT]

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agaricus5
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ErikH2000 wrote:
New policy for the forum...

Don't post about usage of illegal drugs--for or against.

I think we should just put this policy in place, rather than set up a whole new board/topic for it along with restrictions. In my opinion, the DROD.net Forum is for talking about DROD, not about sensitive issues such as illegal drugs, their usage and effects - I think you should keep the DROD.net forum as it is - it covers mainly DROD topics, is mainly clean and mostly safe in terms of content for all users of this forum.

However, one thing to note is how you go about telling people about the new rule, if you implement it. With reference to your comment about worried parents, if the rule is too strongly emphasised, parents may immediately assume that there is a problem with the forum, the logic being that the rule would not have been introduced strongly if there wasn't one, and be under the false impression that the forum is therefore frequented by drug addicts. Perhaps a note appended to the rule saying something like: "There haven't been any major discussions of drugs/sensitive issues on this forum, but we've decided to put the rule in place just to avoid such discussions taking place," would be helpful.

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Nillo
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I don't think age limit is a good idea.
I mean, I'm 14. I've surfed the 'Net as long as I can remember.
I've seen a lot of things that I probably should'nt have, but I got used to it.
Now, if I saw something that would freak everyone out, I would'nt lift an eyebrow.

Plus, I think an "Adult" section would encourage dirty jokes and explicit language.
Why not just say "Don't talk about drugs, OK?"

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gds
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I don't think an adult board would fit with the spirit of this forum. As for the telephone idea, I don't think it would work, how can you be sure the person at the other end is the forum member they claim to be.

Agaricus, rather than having disclaimer, why just not state that in consideration for the audience of this forum, the policy is no discussion of illegal activities.

ErikH2000
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I talked about it with the other moderators. We're not going to do the adult board. We'll add something to the FAQ indicating you shouldn't promote (in however subtle terms) dangerous or illegal activities, which would include taking drugs.

-Erik

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agaricus5
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gds wrote:
I don't think an adult board would fit with the spirit of this forum. As for the telephone idea, I don't think it would work, how can you be sure the person at the other end is the forum member they claim to be.

Agaricus, rather than having disclaimer, why just not state that in consideration for the audience of this forum, the policy is no discussion of illegal activities.

Make that "no serious discussion of illegal activities" for sending hired thugs around to stop spying on Caravel DROD would probably come under "illegal".

However, are all topics on sensitive issues necessarily about illegal activities? Smoking, for example is legalised when you are older than a certain age, but I am quite against it and wouldn't want to influence anyone on this forum indirectly to take it up at all.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-17-2004 at 07:59 PM GMT]

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Drizzo
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Very sensible resolution.

However certain illegal activities really need to be discussed... because, if not here, where else?

I mean, Koala bears are endangered and protected by law but they must be stopped. Sure they may look all cute and bearish... but they're really vicious marsupials, stoned to the gills on eucalyptus and trying to push their drugs on our children via cough drops and menthol cigarettes. We must act now before its too late!

For our safety and the safety of future generations, please kick a koala today. thank you.



Um... yeah, or what Agaricus just said.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Yes, I'm back.

I'd also like to point out that maturity is something that people have missed. A 12 year old may have the maturity of a 20 year old, and vice-versa. I think that people younger than a certain age may be able to help, because we know things (unfortunatly ) than adults don't. I'm sure I could figure out how many, out of the 90-some grade nines in our school drank or smoked on the weekends, it would fall ABOVE 60%. It is serious, but sometimes we need to know about this stuff before we encounter it.

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SKWERLL
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Yeah, I'm 11, and all the kids at school talk about cool websites that are probably way too violent or have waaaay too much swearing to be mentioned here.
I've never smoked before (im ELEVEN.) and it's really stupid because everyone says it messes up your lungs. DIE TOBACCO!!!

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masonjason
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11? Well, that explains a lot *mourns lack of anime sweat smiley*
I think you made entirely the right decision about the adult board. As you can see from my avatar, I'm 55, wait, scratch that, I'm actually 15 and too honest to set up a fake phone call to get in, and so then I'd be missing out on some of the forum posts, and I tend to read the whole forum. Plus, like everyone else said: what's the point?


[Edited by masonjason on 04-17-2004 at 10:43 PM GMT]

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ErikH2000
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Drizzo wrote:
However certain illegal activities really need to be discussed... because, if not here, where else?

I sympathize with this point of view (read the PM I sent you yesterday). I've done illegal things that I'm proud of, and the country I live in was founded by honorable lawbreakers. But there's plenty of other places to have completely open discussions on sensitive topics. This is primarily a forum about a computer game, so we shouldn't try to be all things for all people. Here's text I proposed earlier to go in the FAQ that explains my viewpoint better.

Ahem! With respect to posting message on the DROD.net forum...

You shouldn't promote doing anything that is illegal or dangerous, for example: taking drugs, pirating software, or hopping freight trains. That isn't to say that there aren't illegal or dangerous things worth talking about or even doing, but our forum isn't a good place to describe them as acceptable activities. Note that you can promote an activity simply by saying that it is "okay for you". Some of our members are pretty young and lack the experience to make good judgments, so even very mild things you say here can have consequences beyond what you intended. Sometimes someone can have a legitimate point of view that favors or condones an activity, perhaps under certain cirumstances, but still this opinion shouldn't be expressed around children or teenagers. Since we aren't going to allow even subtle promotion of illegal/dangerous activities, it would be courteous of people with opposing views not to throw out bait, i.e. "People who take drugs are all losers." Topics like these are best avoided on our forum. You might have a valuable conversation about them someplace more suitable.

-Erik


____________________________
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ErikH2000
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agaricus5 wrote:
However, are all topics on sensitive issues necessarily about illegal activities?

No, probably not.

I'm not going to work on a detailed description to clarify the grey area between what should or shouldn't be talked about. People can use common sense, and when that fails us, the moderators will rule with a light touch.

-Erik

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Drizzo
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ErikH2000 wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
However, are all topics on sensitive issues necessarily about illegal activities?

No, probably not.

I'm not going to work on a detailed description to clarify the grey area between what should or shouldn't be talked about. People can use common sense, and when that fails us, the moderators will rule with a light touch.

-Erik

Thank goodness... I was starting to have flashbacks to my Ethics and Law classes where we talked about sexual harrasment in the workplace, another nightmare altogether.

Common sense and non-interference unless things get out of hand are probably the best route, and allow us to address the growing koala problem, yet outlaws DiMono's dangerous attempts at corrupting our youth to his depraved and self-destructive ways.
Hooray! best of both worlds!



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Mattcrampy
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Drizzo wrote:

I mean, Koala bears are endangered and protected by law but they must be stopped. Sure they may look all cute and bearish... but they're really vicious marsupials, stoned to the gills on eucalyptus and trying to push their drugs on our children via cough drops and menthol cigarettes. We must act now before its too late!

For our safety and the safety of future generations, please kick a koala today. thank you.

You're thinking of drop bears. Koalas are perpetually docile.

And yes, I said docile. Not anything else.

On the topic of the adult forum stuff, it's just so dang depressing, which I'm sure wasn't the intention of all this. On the one hand, people get offended by things, but then someone somewhere will be offended by anything. I know people who find the idea of people talking on the Internet instead of outside on the real world with real people, dammit, rather distressing. So you're all making people cry. Shame on you.

On the other hand, while we do have some young members here, which does complicate the whole thing. I know how I wanted to be treated when I was younger, and it would insult 10-year-old me to be told that no, you're not mature enough to handle this. On the other hand, I doubt I would be mature enough, although that's more because the Life Education giraffe in primary school reinforced a belief I've always had and continue to hold.

And as things go, I'm pretty tolerant. For one thing, I will never, ever be offended by suicide jokes (oblique!). But it occurs that, using the power of hyperbole, if we don't stop now, where will it end? I certainly don't want any mopy semi-goths on the DROD board talking about how depressing being so deep is, without ever thinking about what 'deep' means. Actually, I don't want anyone thinking it's okay to go on about that stuff here, otherwise I'll be forced to think of you as a weirdo and prank you mercilessly.

I doubt Erik wants that sort of talk here either.

Matt

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Drizzo
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Mattcrampy wrote:
You're thinking of drop bears. Koalas are perpetually docile.

And yes, I said docile. Not anything else.

They've gotten to you already, eh... Well that brainwashing is nothing that a couple of weeks of thumbscrews and hidden surveillance videos can't fix.

They only look docile because they're so pumped full of Eucalyptus (those in the know call it "Euc" or "the Lyp" or sometimes "Calypso" if they're not into that whole brevity thing.) that they can hardly see straight. But that wont stop them from going to any preschool they can with those mediciny-sweet smelling leaves trying to hook our children.... that wont stop their dirty cough drop money from being used to bribe our otherwise honorable politicians into keeping otherwise safe cough remedies (like uranium) illegal to be sold over the counter, just so they can have a lock on the market...

Docile.... HA!

Don't make me tell you "I told you so!", it wont give me nearly the satisfaction as if we can nip this in the bud right now, and stop this menace before it's too late.


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Mattcrampy
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Dude, I'm Australian. You'd think I'd know. And trust me, koalas are pushovers. It's drop bears that push eucalyptus.

Now, kids, I'm here to talk to you about eucalyptus. Eucalyptus is very bad, because it clears your sinuses something fierce.

...we're trivialising this, aren't we? I'm all for poking fun at sacred cows (almost a national pasttime) but now I feel guilty that someone who for whatever reason sees me as a role model (hey, it could happen) is going to take this flippancy seriously. Which is a shame because I'd prefer them to take note of my flippancy about almost everything else.

Matt

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Drizzo
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Drop bears are nothing but the koala's thugs. They have the sharp claws and bloodthirsty nature by which to act out their evil ways. Koala's only have an all-consuming greed and a sharp, cruel, and manipulative intellect by which to enact their evil ways.
Both share the evil koala genes, they merely differ in the ways they enact them.


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trick
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Koalas may be the ultimate incarnation of pure evil, vicious killing machines that take pleasure in torturing their victims in unspeakable ways, but hey, they're cute.

- Gerry

Mattcrampy
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Drizzo wrote:
Koala's only have an all-consuming greed and a sharp, cruel, and manipulative intellect by which to enact their evil ways.
Both share the evil koala genes, they merely differ in the ways they enact them.

As already established, koalas are perpetually lazy and docile. So while they're evil, greedy and cruel, they're also terminally lazy. Oooh, scary.

"I'd kill that toddler, but I just got comfy and I don't want to move. Aww, screw it, it'll die eventually."
"Stop bugging me! I'll have an evil plan tomorrow!"
"Aww, we're out of eucalyptus. Can, can someone get me some eucalyptus? No? Oh well, back to sleep."

Big threat. Now possums, they're dangerous. And drop bears. Koalas are too easy to kick.

Matt

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mrimer
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Mattcrampy wrote:
On the one hand, people get offended by things, but then someone somewhere will be offended by anything.

Hey, you guys are talking about stuff. It's offending me!

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trick
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mrimer wrote
Hey, you guys are talking about stuff. It's offending me!

Your offendedness offends me.

- Gerry

Oneiromancer
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Offensisensitivity!

Game on,

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ErikH2000
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Mattcrampy wrote:
On the topic of the adult forum stuff, it's just so dang depressing, which I'm sure wasn't the intention of all this. On the one hand, people get offended by things, but then someone somewhere will be offended by anything. I know people who find the idea of people talking on the Internet instead of outside on the real world with real people, dammit, rather distressing. So you're all making people cry. Shame on you.

Well, there's a little dial in the admin configuration section of the forum. On one end is "Ear-bleedingly Free Speech" and at the other end is "Baby-Soft Pillowfication". The two extremes are obviously wrong, and the dial has to be set someplace in the middle.

In my personal conversations, I have the dial set all the way to the left minus one notch for tactful empathy ("I can't believe the government is paying you to have babies!" ) and one more for self-preservation ("How come you stupid gangsta types gotta wear your pants falling off? Can't afford a belt?" ). Unfortunately, on DROD.net, the dial must be set closer to pillowfication.

-Erik

____________________________
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dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)