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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (The hold is now finished!)
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
gds wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
How would you like to do the beta-testing? Should everyone helping each try to complete the hold for themselves (I'll leave the warp room in so you can level skip), or should I assign levels to each person to test separately...
My opinion is that the whole hold should be played by each tester. I've got two reasons for that. First, you get less chances that problems or unintentional solutions get missed. Second, it will give you better feedback on the overall feel of the hold.
The downside of it is that it's such a big hold, it will take a while to playtest.

Ok, agreed. A full playtest from start to finish will be the method of testing. However, I will make one or two adjustments to it:

sebhaque wrote:
I completely agree with gds. He's basically stated my reasons so I won't waste space by typing mine out.
Agaricus, I have a question. Is the hold going to be anyone edit for the beta or will it be something else?

For testing purposes and also as a sort of "gift" for helping, I will be making the hold "Anyone Edit" with a warp room attached that will go to all levels. I probably will not require everyone to fight their way through the entire hold by themselves: If you become stuck, then I will gladly give help if I have a specific solution, or if not, then a bug fix. I will decide later, but I think what I will do is get you to make your own copy of the hold that you can edit, from which you do the testing, so that if there is a bug, you can edit it yourself and you will not lose all the progress in the level. I will consider this more closely as I finish the hold for beta.

Agaricus, I also realise that I didn't give you any more feedback on level 10. I haven't had a chance to play the latest version you released and I don't Drod on this computer but here is what little I can remember:

I love this new trend for using DROD as a verb. No longer "to play DROD", it is now "to DROD", which shows just how great and unique this game really is, as it can be converted into its own group of derived words. In fact, I'm adding it to my vocabulary now. :)

- I thought of a more elegant way (I think) to add a savepoint in 1N2E (the one where you race a mimic against a snake). I would replace the green door by a red door and move the green door to the other end of that narrow corridor. Put the savepoint in between and replace that force arrow the mimic go through by a trapdoor (assuming snakes don't croos trapdoors). I think it's more aesthetically pleasing than your orb suggestion.
Yes. Orbs don't look much like walls. In fact, they look more like floor tiles. Your suggestion is a great idea. Serpents can go on trapdoors, so putting a force arrow on the trapdoor should solve the problem.

- In the room east of that (1N3E ? the one with 3 of 4 sections divided by red doors with a few trapdoors in each section), I remember thinking that another savepoint would be helpfull. The savepoint would go in one of the mimic section so that it can only be accessed after you've dropped all trapdoors. Unfortunately, I can't really remember my reasoning. Something like you could screw up after stepping on the savepoint and have to restart the whole mimic business.
It is 1N 3E.

It's a good idea. I'll have to consider where exactly to put it or them, since you need to manipulate those mimics very carefully, so a checkpoint in the wrong place could prove annoying.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-24-2004 at 06:07 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-24-2004 at 06:07 PM GMT]

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06-24-2004 at 07:06 PM
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bandit1200
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
I downloaded the latest version tonight, got to the end of level one and it took me back to the beginning of the level. I checked in the editor and levels 2,3,7,8 and 11 do the same. The rest are OK.
06-24-2004 at 11:42 PM
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (+1)  
agaricus5 wrote:
I love this new trend for using DROD as a verb. No longer "to play DROD", it is now "to DROD", which shows just how great and unique this game really is, as it can be converted into its own group of derived words. In fact, I'm adding it to my vocabulary now. :)

Is the past tense form drodded? DRODded? DRODed?

---

Beethro 4:31-34

31And Hermansen spake unto the webfeet 32"Lo, the keyboard shall be
stained with the tears of the frustrated 33while the righteous shall drodeth
with the sword of much bigness." 34And the webfeet saw that it was good.
:P

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06-25-2004 at 05:43 AM
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RubellaGolda
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
or, as Calvin once said:
Verbing weirds language.
06-25-2004 at 09:02 AM
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RubellaGolda wrote:
or, as Calvin once said:
Verbing weirds language.

Definitely one of my all time favorite C+H quotes, inspired one of my DoD names "Ninja is a Verb"


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06-25-2004 at 10:18 AM
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agaricus5
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bandit1200 wrote:
I downloaded the latest version tonight, got to the end of level one and it took me back to the beginning of the level. I checked in the editor and levels 2,3,7,8 and 11 do the same. The rest are OK.

Hmm...

That's some weird stair reset bug creeping in again. I did make sure before I released that the stairs did go somewhere, but it looks like this is a problem now. When I release the beta, I will see if deleting the old stairs and replacing them will not cause the problem. If you do find it does happen again when I am in beta, you will need to tell a developer about it.

Drizzo wrote:
RubellaGolda wrote:
or, as Calvin once said:
Verbing weirds language.

Definitely one of my all time favorite C+H quotes, inspired one of my DoD names "Ninja is a Verb"

That's the dynamic nature of language for you.

:)

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06-25-2004 at 11:44 AM
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gds
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (+1)  
Is now a good time to say that I made a typo and forgot to put the verb in ?

I would never take such liberties with a language that is not mine ;)
06-25-2004 at 03:24 PM
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HSE
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When do we get to beta-test? I'm eager....
06-26-2004 at 04:16 PM
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agaricus5
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sebhaque wrote:
When do we get to beta-test? I'm eager....
Wow!

Amazingly, demand outstrips supply for the first time!

I asked for help early on in the reshuffling process purely because I was worried that there would be a silence that would last for several weeks after (see the previous posts for this hold).

However, since the response has been so quick and positive, this is not the case. The hold is about 10% done, so it will be a while before the hold is finished, since I need to install the storylines and some new rooms and levels. I'd estimate around about 1-2 weeks and it will be all done.

Thanks for asking - wait just a little longer; it will soon be finished.

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06-26-2004 at 09:30 PM
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Alrighty. I can't wait for the beta-testing... :jumpy
06-26-2004 at 11:37 PM
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agaricus5
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Almost there...

Almost 75-80% of the hold has been remade entirely; just a matter of about 12-15 rooms to finish off and 15 filler rooms to insert somewhere.

*groan*

It is quite a nasty process, but I'm hoping to finish on Sunday, if not tomorrow.

For the purposes of efficiency, I do understand that there is a contest running and there are also several new holds available to playtest, so I need to check two things now. First, I need to know who is playtesting, and second I need to know for how long the testing period should last.

I will be sending anyone who expressed interest in testing the hold (sebhaque, gamer_extreme_101, Mikko and gds) a PM as soon as it is finished properly, but if you see this post first, can you confirm if you are going to test or not here? (Just for the sake of speed) Could you also (if you reply here) tell me, from your estimate of the current version, how long you would expect to need to finish the hold, or play a decent amount of it, assuming there are no bugs. I estimate about 2-3 weeks. Is this reasonable?

Oh, and I will put in all the story scrolls and descriptions, but the introduction story will come a bit later, since I need to get Erik to check it for me.

Thanks for your help.

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07-10-2004 at 01:56 AM
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HSE
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I'll be available to test, yeah. Just give me a shout when you need me.
Oh, and I'm not sure how long it'll take me to complete the hold. If my schedule is clear, I'll probably take a week or so. However, if it is chaotic like the past 3 weeks (end-of-school syndrome), I really have no idea how long it'll take. Sorry!
07-10-2004 at 02:24 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
I will be sending anyone who expressed interest in testing the hold (sebhaque, gamer_extreme_101, Mikko and gds) a PM as soon as it is finished properly, but if you see this post first, can you confirm if you are going to test or not here? (Just for the sake of speed) Could you also (if you reply here) tell me, from your estimate of the current version, how long you would expect to need to finish the hold, or play a decent amount of it, assuming there are no bugs. I estimate about 2-3 weeks. Is this reasonable?
I'm still in, although I'm asking for about 3-4 weeks just because I have a couple of jobs over the summer down here and I haven't been able to play DROD as much. *GASP*

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07-10-2004 at 03:55 PM
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I haven't been able to play DROD as much
What??? You should be making free time to play DROD!
(jks)
07-10-2004 at 05:18 PM
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (+1)  
Hmmm.....

Plaving DROD.....making money...
Playing DROD.....making money...

I've got it!

Make money to buy JtRH! Problem solved.


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07-10-2004 at 06:37 PM
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agaricus5
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Bavato's Dungeon is now finally in Beta.

The people who have shown interest in beta-testing, but not confirmed it will be shortly sent a message asking for this confirmation, and then shortly after, I will send everyone testing a set of instructions and the hold itself, rather than posting it here, since I only want beta-testers to pick a copy up.

Thanks for your help, everyone! Without it, I would not be able to post here today with a completed hold before me.

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07-12-2004 at 04:42 PM
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Mikko
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I can confirm that I will be testing.

2-3 weeks sounds right. It will give us about one day per level, which means there is time to do more than just rush through it, and there will be extra days to use for other things.
07-12-2004 at 06:25 PM
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agaricus5
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Okay, I've had a re-think about the whole process.

Since we've got at least three people on the testing team, I think it would be better to do all the error correction and suggestion things on the board where everyone can see it, rather than having me be the e-mail relayer or something like that. As soon as this is posted, I'll begin sending the hold to those people whose e-mail addresses I get.

Please read this carefully (Bold is for emphasis, not shouting. :))

Conducting the Beta-Testing

The Testing Process

The Beta process, I've decided, will last for 3 weeks, so, that's until Monday 2nd August. Testing is not a priority, nor should it take prominence over other DRODistic commitments, but I would like a reasonable amount of rooms to be completed (reflected on ability, not the number of completed rooms), so that I can get as good an average view of the hold as is possible.

Since the hold is Anyone-Edit, and is not guaranteed to be 100% stable, I advise copying the hold for yourself first before playing, so if you need to change anything, you can do it without losing huge amounts of progress (see below).

The Hold

The hold has been totally remade. Levels have been moved around, rooms have been switched and relocated, and some rooms are totally new, so the hold is now dynamically different to what it used to be. Also, there is a small surprise now in the warp room, which you might be interested in.

What to Look Out For

The main focus of this testing is basically to check it all through to make sure it is in a state that is ready for general purpose playing.

When testing, you need to check carefully for layout bugs, such as blocked passages, rooms that cannot be left or entered, backtracking problems and things like that. Some of the new rooms have been rushed through development or completion, so check those carefully for trivial solutions or (unlikely) being impossible. In addition, stair destinations have also been set again by me, but I don't know if they are bugless or not, so checking these would be a good idea also.

You also need to keep in mind your opinions on the gameplay aspect too. If you find a room/level repetitive or boring, or exhausting to play through, or over-crammed with too many puzzles (watch for L13, which is a bit like this), then I need to know about this so I can try to rectify the problem. Similarly, If the rooms themselves are annoying, such as having too few checkpoints, or relying on too much guesswork, then notifying me of this is important.

Two rooms to note especially are L4 1S 1W and L4 1S 2W, which do not look aesthetically appealing and were implemented at the last minute. Should I leave them in or remove them?

Implemented in the hold is also a storyline. The basic premise is that an exterminator called Tolbus Grobbler (not Beethro as before for consistency with Erik's stories) has been hired to clear out Bavato's Dungeon. He has also been asked to find out about the missing hold builders and architect on level 8 and discover the mystery of the invasion of monsters. Through the hold are littered scrolls and descriptions that tell this story, and so you should also check these for consistency. Let me know if there are any problems with it, such as spelling or grammar issues, inconsistencies with previous scrolls, incorrect dates, or something like that. Also, if you have any suggestions about improvements, these would be beneficial.

What to Do If You Get Stuck

If for some reason, you cannot make progress in the hold, due to not being able to complete a room or any other reason, then post a message in this thread for help, or send me a PM or e-mail (see below for restricions on spoilers). If, however, a room is impossible due to whatever reason, either try the other rooms (use the editor to make a bypass tunnel to go past the room) or use the warp room in Level 1 to warp to a new level. Post a report of anything you find is impossible here, and I'll get back to you by posting a fix for the room. You should be able to edit this yourself to test it (if you have your own editable copy) and you will only lose progress for this one edited room. If you need some specific help, do not be afraid to ask since I will do my best to help you by sending a specific solution (speed is what is needed after all) or someone else may do so if they have already completed the room.

What to Post Here

This open discussion is mainly to facilitate communication between all the testers. Post bug reports, fixes and layout problems here by all means. You may also make general comments about level structure or individual comments here or an overall comment if you finish the hold. Asking for help here is also advised, since all of us will be able to see it in the thread

However, do not post solution spoilers, storyline revealers or any secret information in the hold here. If someone wants a specific solution, then send it to them via PM or e-mail. rather than putting it here on the board

Finally...

This version is a beta version with Anyone Edit status bestowed upon it and a Warp Room put into it. Please do not distribute it since the final version will not have either of those attributes in it. I will send you a final copy (If changes are necessary) with these privileges on just before the release.

Thanks for your help,

Enjoy the new remade Beta version!

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-12-2004 at 06:20 PM GMT]

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07-12-2004 at 06:53 PM
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
last for 3 weeks, so, that's until Monday 4th October
Agaricus, 3 weeks from now is 2nd Aug.


Anyway, I've sent you a PM, so I'm now ready for the hold. Thanks!
07-12-2004 at 07:09 PM
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sebhaque wrote:
last for 3 weeks, so, that's until Monday 4th October
Agaricus, 3 weeks from now is 2nd Aug.


Anyway, I've sent you a PM, so I'm now ready for the hold. Thanks!
Aaaaaah!

Thanks for that. I will edit that shortly.

See. That's what happens when I work on a hold for a few consecutive hours, and then post. :blink

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07-12-2004 at 07:19 PM
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agaricus5
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A note of warning...

L1 2S will need to have all the trapping orbs removed. Don't hit the first two orbs in the winding section. This will be fixed for the final release.

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07-12-2004 at 08:17 PM
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agaricus5
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Another note: Ending stairs for Levels 1 and 3 have been reset. You may wish to reset them yourself, or use the Warp Room to skip past them.

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07-12-2004 at 09:49 PM
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (+1)  
I think I'll post my thoughts level by level, at least for the first few ones.

Level 1

Entrance: OK
1E: Could you make it easier to travel through the room once it's been completed?
1N1E: OK
2E: OK
1N2E: OK, but a couple of the corridors have become redundant. Maybe you could add something to the dead ends that no longer contain anything.
1S2E: OK
1S1E: It always looks a bit clumsy when Beethro ends up on a closed door. I don't think it's necessary to make him do so in the SW corner.
2S1E: OK
2S: OK, but the NW checkpoint is poorly placed. There is no way around it and the player might want to check what the orbs ahead do without stepping on the checkpoint.
3E: OK
1N3E: OK
2N3E: OK, but I'm not sure if it really fits in on the first level.
1S3E: OK
4E: OK. The most difficult room in the level, but since this is also the last room, I don't think it matters.

All in all, this is a good first level.

07-13-2004 at 10:06 AM
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agaricus5
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Just remembered - If you reach level 4 1S 2W, you will actually find a room I dropped in there, but forgot to finish off (forgetful me :twak). There is even a scroll inside that says "testing..." on it, so there is really no excuse for me. You may want to test the room yourself (although I suspect it is impossible) or just delete the serpent if you have an anyone-edit version.

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07-13-2004 at 12:02 PM
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Here are my comments on the second level.

1N1E: OK, but looks ugly. I don't think there's anything that can be done about it, though.
1S1E: OK, but the breakable walls under the tar are a bit pointless, as they are almost always destroyed before the player even sees them.
2S2E: Quite tricky. Some sort of hint as to which route is the best would be helpful.
2S: Controlling two mimics while navigating through tar is too difficult for the second level IMO. Either make things easier or move the room to a later level.
3E: OK, but I don't see the point with the serpent. It adds nothing to the puzzle.

All the other rooms are fine.
07-13-2004 at 05:43 PM
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agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
1N1E: OK, but looks ugly. I don't think there's anything that can be done about it, though.

I think removing the redundant trapdoors in the corners and replacing them with walls will help.

1S1E: OK, but the breakable walls under the tar are a bit pointless, as they are almost always destroyed before the player even sees them.
Probably also misleading to a point, since you can't actually see a place where a wall ends until you've already cut it.

2S2E: Quite tricky. Some sort of hint as to which route is the best would be helpful.

Well, it's designed to be done two ways round. Either do the left side anti-clockwise, or the right side clockwise first - the orbs do eventually allow you to reach either side. Probably the left is harder since there are so many goblins, so it might be easier to do the right first.

2S: Controlling two mimics while navigating through tar is too difficult for the second level IMO. Either make things easier or move the room to a later level.
Considered, but I have to think of something else to put there instead.

However, Level 3 probably will contain a bit too much unpleasantness, as I'm sure you'll find out eventually. 1N 1E, 1N 2E and 2N 3E probably being the worst culprits. I should have sorted it out before...

Level 4 isn't as bad, however.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-13-2004 at 05:55 PM GMT]

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07-13-2004 at 06:41 PM
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (+1)  
Ack! I'm behind!

Level 1 - Comments. I'm leaving the ones already mentioned.

General: I've noticed there isn't a good 'learning curve'in this hold, which may be good or bad, depending on how you see it. But, seeing as most people who play it will have beaten KDD, it shouldn't be a problem.

3E - Gets repetitive FAST. It's a good room, no doubt about that, it just gets nerve-wracking quick.

1N 3E - After finishing 3E, you head into this room expecting an even HARDER challenge, but it doesn't live up to that. My suggestion would be to add a brain to it so that, when the RQ is released, they find their way towards you, plus the Queen gets smarter as well.

4E - Gates AND trapdoors?!? Phooey.

Honestly, that's about it for now...sorry I didn't get this to you sooner.

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07-13-2004 at 10:38 PM
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Ack! I'm behind!
Don't worry. I'm ahead, not you behind.

General: I've noticed there isn't a good 'learning curve'in this hold, which may be good or bad, depending on how you see it. But, seeing as most people who play it will have beaten KDD, it shouldn't be a problem.
Well, it is there, but it is more subtle than Dugan's one, and you can't really tell just from one level. I did work really hard to make sure that there was a difficulty gradient in the hold (compare this and some previous versions). Basically, levels 1-3 prepare you for the rest of the hold, which does get harder as you go on (Except for 10-12). You do need to have good starting skills to begin with, but level 1 is for practising movement efficiency (chopping off diagonals and things like that), and levels 2 and 3 are for monster killing efficiency (stepping and swinging skills, counting, manipulation of monsters, and utilising natural defences for your own protection). After that, the hold is mostly made up of lots (and lots) of efficiency or manipulation rooms.

1N 3E - After finishing 3E, you head into this room expecting an even HARDER challenge, but it doesn't live up to that. My suggestion would be to add a brain to it so that, when the RQ is released, they find their way towards you, plus the Queen gets smarter as well.

It's more of an intentionally easy room, than anything else. I may remove it completely eventually.

4E - Gates AND trapdoors?!? Phooey.
Is this good or bad?

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07-13-2004 at 10:59 PM
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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
The problem with 2S2E on level 2, is that there are many difficult parts, which can make the player think he's taken the wrong route. I myself restarted the room a couple of times from the begining before I figured out how it works.

I'm actually finding level 3 to be relatively easy. Although that's probably because it's the level I've played the most in earlier versions. The only room that I'm having real trouble with is 1N. I've also found the first real bug. It's impossible to leave 1N.

BTW, 1S2W on level 4 is possible.
07-13-2004 at 11:31 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon v6.3 (Testing Edition) (0)  
Mikko wrote:
I'm actually finding level 3 to be relatively easy. Although that's probably because it's the level I've played the most in earlier versions. The only room that I'm having real trouble with is 1N. I've also found the first real bug. It's impossible to leave 1N.

Edit: Oops - I see what the problem is now - you can't leave the rooms to either side of 1N. Sorry.

BTW, 1S2W on level 4 is possible.

Thanks for that. You know what I forgot to put in? A green door. And that has made all the difference (Without it, it is not possible).


[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-13-2004 at 11:42 PM GMT]

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07-13-2004 at 11:53 PM
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