DiMono
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How about a door that opens when all tar is cleared from the room? I've got a great level in mind that's just waiting for this, or I won't be able to make it work without being really annoying.

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Oneiromancer
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This is already in I believe. Might be a Grey Door? Anyway, it's been discussed nearly from the beginning, from what I understand.

Game on,

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The_Red_Hawk
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No, it's called a Black Gate.

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Stuwy
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Gah!! Just the thought of having an entire hold dedicated to black gates with lots of tar makes me shiver....



[edit] w00t! 100th post!

[Edited by Stuwy on 12-22-2003 at 04:46 AM GMT]

DiMono
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Don't worry, my level will be really really fun, because I won't make a level that I'm not willing to play all the way through myself.

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Stuwy
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DiMono wrote:
Don't worry, my level will be really really fun, because I won't make a level that I'm not willing to play all the way through myself.

ok, thats good. Hopefully your hold won't require THAT much of efficiency... which im not good at

Scott
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I actually rather like trying to remove all the tar from rooms just for some fun.

The_Red_Hawk
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There are some ways to create a room where you have to clear all the tar without using Black Gates. For example, Dugan's 8:2S2E.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Scott
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That room doesn't require all tar to be removed just all the tar in the first 3 sections.

The_Red_Hawk
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Yes, I know, but it's still an example. There are several rooms in Deep Hold that force the player to eliminate all tar too.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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I'm still in level 2, so I haven't gotten to them yet to see how you did it. Although, if it's in the first six levels I can get there very quickly

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The_Red_Hawk
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Some examples are 6:1E (sort of), 7:1S1E, 11:2N5E, 14:1E, and 15:4E.

Actually, I think that's all of them.

And, actually, you can access all the levels, not just the first six, because if you jump to level 6, there are jumps that let you go up to level 12, then there are jumps that go up to 25 (which is not of course created yet) and it will go on. I added a clarification scroll about this in the first room.

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 12-24-2003 at 12:53 AM GMT]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
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One way you could force removal of tar is to place trapdoors under all of the tar you want removed and then place a red door across the exit.

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The_Red_Hawk
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Yes, but that's very hard. 6:1E in Deep Hold has that type of puzzle in only a quarter of a room, and it took an hour or more to playtest.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Yes, but that's very hard. 6:1E in Deep Hold has that type of puzzle in only a quarter of a room, and it took an hour or more to playtest.

Try Bavato's Dungeon L4 1S. That took nearly 3 hours to playtest and correct.

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The_Red_Hawk
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I'm not that far yet. What is it?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I'm not that far yet. What is it?

Go see for yourself!

There's a warp room in L1, 1N 1E. There's no problem in using it.

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DiMono
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Trap doors is the annoying way I was talking about. I just don't want to hem the players in to not being able to move where they want to because they stepped on a trap door too early. There's also the small issue of puzzles being unsolvable, which will happen in a few cases if I do this. Maybe if I put trapdoors under alternating squares...

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Mattcrampy
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Yeah, this is coming as Black Doors, much like yellow doors, etc.

As I understand it, it's based on stable tar, not tar mothers or tar babies.

In the interim, you probably could use checkerboarded trapdoors and a red door to achieve the same effect.

In fact, we can fake black doors now. Why are they going in?

Matt

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The_Red_Hawk
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I think it's because it's easy to make a puzzle almost exactly like that, but it takes up lots of space to be able to do so.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

zex20913
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I think it's because, even though we can fake black gates now, there are a limited number of ways to do it. With the black gates, many more twisted puzzle opportunities are available.

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The_Red_Hawk
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That's quite true also.....

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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I just noticed how many of Hawk's posts are things like "I agree"...

Anyway, I can see a small number (no sarcasm, honest) of problems with writing rooms this way:

Unless you're very careful, it's possible to accidentally not require tar to be cleared by missing a 2x2 area.

There might be times when oddly shaped rooms prevent you from keeping an area accessable after the tar's been cleared.

Since you need to dance around the trapdoors after stepping on them, time-sensitive puzzles are very difficult to make this way.

And finally (see, only 4), tar babies will eat the player's face if there's a tar mother in the room.

With careful room design it should be possible to do without black doors, but it's really much easier to do with them.

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Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

The_Red_Hawk
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Mattcrampy wrote:
In the interim, you probably could use checkerboarded trapdoors and a red door to achieve the same effect.

I'm going to try that for Deep Hold.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
I just noticed how many of Hawk's posts are things like "I agree"...

Interesting...

There might be times when oddly shaped rooms prevent you from keeping an area accessable after the tar's been cleared.

Ah, but this means you must be careful then.

Since you need to dance around the trapdoors after stepping on them, time-sensitive puzzles are very difficult to make this way.

Depending on where Beethro is going - 1 diagonal = 1horizontal+ 1 vertical.

And finally (see, only 4), tar babies will eat the player's face if there's a tar mother in the room.

Unless the tar mass is narrow and is cleared in a certain way that allows you to take advantage of diagonal space protection.

With careful room design it should be possible to do without black doors, but it's really much easier to do with them.

They are more compact and allow for easier puzzles in some places. However, their compactness and reactivity to tar also allows for precise tar destroyal control.

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DiMono
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Some of the rooms I have planned rely on specific patterns for tar removal, which makes taking it out in neatly organized strips impossible. If doors triggered by clearing tar are in the game, then bully for us; I can create a room designed around trapdoors under tar that is unbeatable, while the same room with a black door is perfectly fine.

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The_Red_Hawk
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Not that I don't believe you or anything, but can we see it?

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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File: trapdoor tar demo.hold (1.3 KB)
Downloaded 52 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

This hold should satisfy the condition. The first room is with a black door, the second room is with a red door. I haven't playtested this myself yet, as it all gets very tedious in the second room, but I think I've made the second room unbeatable. If it's beatable, a slight modification that will be obvious when you look at the room will probably make it unsolvable.

I had a much better example, but it's straight out of my hold-to-be, and I don't want to give that away just yet, do I?

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The_Red_Hawk
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In the room without trapdoors, I assume that the red door represents the black gate. However, there is tar on the other side so it would not open in a real scenario.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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You're right, of course, I'm just making the point that trapdoors can make a room unsolvable.

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