LesserMinion
Level: Roachling
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I've seen the "you should add more buildings to encourage growth" message - I just assumed that it was something more like "GrowthMultiplier drops by 0.1 every week until something is built" rather than having a separate maximum population based on the number of buildings.

I was actually playing a S'Sirthe/Elf Alliance, so Totem Spirit wasn't available - presumably the siting algorithm takes into account the faction, so it placed me on the archipelago since I started with ships.

grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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I was never aware of this. There should be a list of stuff like this posted.

I'm planning to add more stuff like this to the wiki..

About archipelago: if you start on one, you receive one or more ships to compensate for your starting position, so this is why you started with them. Normally an alliance does not start with any ships.

I think the archipelago is a really cool idea, but the inferior starting position it gives you has been an issue from the beginning. Starting out with ships was a first step toward making it a viable starting position, but judging by your stories, and also based on my own experiences, I think it requires a bit more effort to even out the odds. So let's brainstorm!

One key problem is that the surrounding sea is not great terrain. Sea has stats 3/0/2/0, which is inferior to most common land-based terrain. For example, compare it to steppe (3/1/2/0), savannah (3/1/1/1) or river (2/1/3/0). Compared to plains and farmland it is even worse.

Worse yet, sea obviously cannot be improved by any method. And archipelago cities are also quite often at distance 2 from ocean, which is even a worse terrain type (1/0/1/2).

So all in all, it is not surprising that those cities have an underwhelming feel to it. One solution could be to improve the stats of archipelago terrain. Currently archipelago is 1/4/1/0. I just played around with the terrain editor; if archipelago would be upgraded to 2/4/1/0 (+1 food), this would already make quite a difference, raising the max size of a typical archipelago city from 13 to 15. That may or may not be sufficient to compensate..

As noted above, S'Sirthe starting on archipelago are especially problematic since they have a hard time paying the upkeep of Zaratans, as archipelago cities produce very little mana.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-09-2010 12:35 AM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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Rebalancing archipelagoes would probably be the best way to go. I think +1 food is a good idea, but maybe give it 1 mana as well, so you don't have to rely on a 3 different sphere maan bonus to pay upkeeps (for whatever races need it).

As it stands, archipelagoes come in groups of what, 1-3 on a random map? And they're always found at least 3 hexes away from normal land? That means the only terrain bonuses it will take into account are archipelagoes, and water... it probably wouldn't be too bad to improve them over existing terrain, would it?

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LesserMinion
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Hmm... Archipelagos are really awful for goblins as well. According to the wiki, they are production 4 - which is great, but goblins don't care about production.

Oh, and the jellyfish also costs mana.

Personally, I think having archipelago as the 'versatile' terrain would make sense - after all, it's a cluster of islands, I'm sure some of those will be marshy or inhospitable enough to be mana sources.

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[Last edited by LesserMinion at 04-09-2010 06:58 PM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

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Hm. I must say I rather object to making archipelago an objectively better land type than everything else...

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LesserMinion
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It's about the combination really.

Archipelago is a strong production tile but it's weak at everything else. Sea is a fair food tile and a slightly weak gold tile.

Ocean is awful.

The end result is that the city is great at building units, but doesn't contribute much to their upkeep, which isn't that useful until you have something that does help you with your upkeep.

Buffing the terrain would allow it to keep its niche, but would also give an archipelago starter a better chance to expand early in the game and get around the disadvantages of the terrain type.

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[Last edited by LesserMinion at 04-09-2010 08:09 PM]

grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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Good point about the goblins, Lesserminion!

The end result is that the city is great at building units, but doesn't contribute much to their upkeep

Actually, the net result is usually a city with low work, little to no mana but high gold.

Instead of improving archipelago, an alternative idea would be to improve sea instead. If sea would be changed from 3/0/2/0 to 3/1/2/0, then archipelago would no longer need to have the extremely high work production that it currently has. So, for example:

Sea: 3/0/2/0 => 3/1/2/0
Archipelago: 1/4/1/0 => 1/3/2/0

More gold and less production for archipelago would be a big improvement for the goblins, too.

Another idea for improving the archipelago could be to give them a standard leyline? Leylines are the type of resource that can normally be found on archipelagos, and it would be a great help to goblins or S'Sirthe, because it helps them to pay the upkeep of their ships.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-09-2010 11:08 PM]

LesserMinion
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Hmm... I quite like the idea of adding a point of production to sea, although it is generally implied that the value of terrain comes from things that can be extracted from it (charcoal, wood, and pitch from forests, for example), and for most races, I don't see what the sea offers them beyond fish, some trade goods, and a mode of transport.

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[Last edited by LesserMinion at 04-10-2010 12:21 AM]

Radiant
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Likewise, I fail to see how a sea tile could realistically help in production.

However, the suggestion for adding a leyline (or, I suppose, oyster bed) sounds good to me.

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grobblewobble
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The reason for adding a Leyline would be, mostly, to help the S'Sirthe because as it is now, they sometimes can't pay the upkeep for the Zaratans they start with. Oyster beds don't help there. I have had one game started with 3 zaratans and -12 mana production.. Keep in mind that these cities already produce a lot of gold, but little to no mana.

If sea remains the way it is, imo adding +1 food or maybe gold or mana to archipelago would be a good idea. That would not make it better than any other terrain, as plains, mountains and farmland have 7 points total, too.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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I'm pretty sure that call the void is still broken. In the game I played against Grobble, I would cancel it, move on to the next turn, and my mirror status would show that it is still active. Cancellations don't work, either.

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grobblewobble
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Were you still playing with the october '09 version?

Danjen02
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Was just about to say this was in the janary version, but then I forgot a new one came out, so... yeah it's probably fine after all.

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Radiant
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LesserMinion wrote:
Also, what is the effect of expelling a unit from a city?

It looks like it actually kills the unit, which might be a little over the top.

Yes, it does, and yes, that is intentional. Have you ever seen an angry mob of villagers?

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= Radiant =

grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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Magic: what do you all think?

As far as energy direct damage is concerned, I feel that currently flame lance is just perfect, while lightning strike is a tad too strong. Someone agree/disagree?

Immobilize is resisted too easily right now, I think.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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It's probably just me, but there are only a handful of spells I cast from each school on a regular basis. I almost always pick M/x/x just for Revelation; it's just too good not to have in the beginning. Anyways, magic is not my forte, since I don't think I've used it enough to see the big picture.

Actually that gave me an idea for a map setting. Would it be possible to disable the fog of war? That way, you could toggle between the way it is now, fully explored, but you can't see cities/units (so you know the terrain, but not who is where), and fully revealed, so you can see everything at all times.

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The Mystic
Level: Goblin
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Last time I checked, there was a spell that granted Eagle Eye somewhere in the Chaos spell list (I think at the "Adept" level).

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Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Danjen02
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It's hard to form a strategy around chaos magic, given it's nature.

It also needs two ranks in it to use.

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The Mystic
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Danjen02 wrote:
It's hard to form a strategy around chaos magic, given it's nature.

But it can be done. I find Glory to be mildly awesome, and Toxic Touch is great against poison & disease.

____________________________
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If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
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Radiant
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Danjen02 wrote:
It's hard to form a strategy around chaos magic, given it's nature.

I'm not sure that's true. Spells like Tempest Ward or Chimeric Horde can form a rather effective part of your defensives.

Yes, some Chaos spells are, by design, impractically random; that's e.g. why Flicker is reasonably cheap. That doesn't mean all Chaos spells are like that.

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The Mystic
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Radiant wrote:
Spells like Tempest Ward or Chimeric Horde can form a rather effective part of your defensives.

Chimeric Horde is also good for a slightly cheaper rush offense strategy, especially against opponents with few high resistance units.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

---

[Last edited by The Mystic at 04-18-2010 11:17 PM]

grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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I love chaos magic for Insanity, that's one of the best curses around. It disables many special skills, like bless, tactician, overland attacks, true strike and even shield.

To Danjen, about revelation: I think you should build more scouts. Judging by our current game, you seem to be building only a few of them and use them to check out the neighbourhood. If you start by building a horde of scouts, you will quickly gain many special resources and will get to know large parts of the map, without needing to rely on the revelation spell as much.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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Ironically, I started by building a horde of defense, like you suggested at the end of the last game.

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grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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All my fault, huh?

Finding the right balance between attack, defense, scouting and building is not so easy. In any case, when you're playing humans it works well to build many scouts because they're cheap.

This brings me to another issue: the raven. In the past it used to have 0 upkeep, which was changed to 1 mana. I would be in favor of changing this back. Ravens can't be built from the start and will lose a fight against any other scout (or any other unit at all), so it would be fair if they'd be cheaper.

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
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grobblewobble wrote:
I love chaos magic for Insanity, that's one of the best curses around. It disables many special skills, like bless, tactician, overland attacks, true strike and even shield.

And, last I checked, it also negates Foresight, which makes it easier to kill Infiltrators and the like.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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The main current balance problem imo is deities. As it stands, I will pick Thalara 9 times out of 10.

The reason is that 20% movement is rounded up. So movement 5 becomes movement 6, which is ok, but movement 4 becomes movement 5, movement 3 becomes 4 and 2 becomes 3. In practice, Thalara currently just means +1 movement to any unit. Especially for the slower units in the game this is just too good to pass up. No other god can match this benefit, with very few exceptions.

Another (but rather minor) issue is the Necromancer ability that erases maps. It currently mainly serves to let your opponent know where your necromancer is. So it is more of a drawback than an advantage. There is a very easy way to fix that: just increase the range of effect to a radius of say, 3 tiles (that would be the exact reverse of the revelation spell, so it seems fitting).

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 01-17-2011 04:12 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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That made me think of a map eraser spell, exactly opposite of revelation. I'd imagine it would have +1 radius of revelation (since it is easier to explore than to remove map), but it would have like +10 research/cost.

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The Mystic
Level: Goblin
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grobblewobble wrote:
Another (but rather minor) issue is the Necromancer ability that erases maps. It currently mainly serves to let your opponent know where your necromancer is. So it is more of a drawback than an advantage. There is a very easy way to fix that: just increase the range of effect to a radius of say, 3 tiles (that would be the exact reverse of the revelation spell, so it seems fitting).

I thought the Necromancer's map-erasing ability was already 3 tiles. I could be wrong, though.

Danjen02 wrote:
That made me think of a map eraser spell, exactly opposite of revelation. I'd imagine it would have +1 radius of revelation (since it is easier to explore than to remove map), but it would have like +10 research/cost.

There's already a spell that does this; Amnesia, a mind adept spell, it erases your opponent's map.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

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Oh yeah, that's right.

I meant on a smaller scale, though.

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The Mystic
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A small-scale Amnesia spell is a good idea in theory, but there's a drawback. It requires you to know whether not not your opponent knows the area you want to erase from his/her map; otherwise, erasing the location would be a moot point, since your opponent didn't know what was there to begin with.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.