StuartK
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For whatever difference it makes, Level 1 4E is still the weakest of your rooms.

You did repeat the spider theme on the third level (originally the second level) though - were you intending to take that somewhere? If the hold were viewed with the levels superimposed, those spider rooms would have been above/below each other.

eytanz
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Ok, I read the comments on L21S1W, and I think (though I'm not sure) I found an unintended solution:



Oh, and um, yeah, all I meant about the arrows was the rather trivial ones near the invis potion.


[Edited by eytanz on 11-13-2003 at 02:21 PM GMT: Attributed a comment to the wrong person]

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Oneiromancer
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Hmmm, your unintended solution is actually not that tough, it only took me three tries to figure it out. I added some extra walls, if someone can do it now they deserve it! But as to adding a checkpoint within the orb section...well, you said "in the first mimic chamber" which doesn't make sense to me, there's only one mimic chamber. Do you mean the first passageway you go through? I don't think it's that difficult of an orb puzzle, and once you get the gist of what is happening you can go through it quickly even if you screw up and have to start over. I did have a checkpoint initially but it was in a place that you could accidentally step on the same move you screwed up, which doesn't help. If I had some really fancy footwork required, like Clayton's brilliant orb maze, then I would definitely have checkpoints. If you feel strongly about this room I can add one though.

Oh, and as for the force arrows comments...you said room 1N 1W, when actually you were referring to 1N 3W (remember, the Entrance is off to the side, not in the center of the square). When I realized that (since no where else on this level had an invisibility potion), I saw what you were talking about and fixed it. Yes, it's not difficult to get from one side of the other, but it is a matter of principle.

Thanks for the comments, if you have the time try to make it to the end of level 3 at least where I made changes to the serpent rooms you were so unimpressed with.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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StuartK wrote:
For whatever difference it makes, Level 1 4E is still the weakest of your rooms.

I do like having simple rooms in the hold, kind of as "breathers" for the player. Since I don't want to change this room's layout, and I don't want to add a brain (no brains until the second level), there's not much to make this room harder. More spiders I suppose. Suggestions are welcome; without them I'm probably not going to change it.

You did repeat the spider theme on the third level (originally the second level) though - were you intending to take that somewhere? If the hold were viewed with the levels superimposed, those spider rooms would have been above/below each other.

Actually, it was always the third level, it's just that before the second level was much much shorter. And since the third "level" is really just supposed to be Beethro running back through the first level again (with some subtle changes, of course ), I should hope that they were on top of one another. So I'm not quite sure what your point is.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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Scott wrote:
I finished the new level 2 and yeah its fun except 1 point. I know I was inefficient but I had to go through 1N2W about half a dozen times. Doing that bit is tedious after the first 2 times.

Coming back to this comment, what I have done is extend the tar two more rows to the south. So it is possible to have five channels cut through the bottom section with a very small number of tar babies created, lessening aggravation on repeated visits. I counteract this by removing the walls that stick out on the sides so that the first time through can still be at least a small challenge.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Atch
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I have just played through the entire Treasure Hunt v5 looking for relief from Bavato – I just can’t get on with Level 6 there.

As far as I can see it plays flawlessly and offers a fine mixture from simple fun rooms to the reasonably very hard and challenging.

Some comments on the additions since v2:

Tomb Vault

I generated too many tar babies on my first attempt at the revamped entrance but by leaving the remaining eyes until later found it just as enjoyable as in v2.

The interconnected rooms are a wonderful addition and make the level far more complete. I even enjoyed the orb puzzle in 1S, 1W, there was a certain logic there and none of the utter randomness we usually see in such puzzles. I have since had a go at tackling the eyes in 1S, 2W with Beethro but it is impossible with the brain present – I’ll try it without the brain later. I wasn’t really counting but I think that I only had three transits from west to east through the tar in 1N, 2W – I didn’t find it tedious.

Tomb Escaper

The secret room at 1S, 5W was not present in v2 – I take it that this is left as an exercise in making impossible rooms playable – or is it?

The Horde

My favourite level in v2 and now even better in v5.

Of the new rooms I found 1N, 1E very enjoyable indeed but was extremely grateful for the checkpoints!

In the entire Treasure Hunt I only had to look for help on one room: 1S, 1W. Is that behaviour with wraithwings only found with a brain present? I must check. The solution reminds me of the final room in Dugan’s; I think that two people have posted that they can’t kill the ‘Neather without being killed by the roach but we know that they have actually never been killed by the roach.

I found 1N greatly improved and for me now the hardest room in the hold that is except for the secret room at 2S, 1W. Is this room playable? I survived the second wave of eyes but just could not get past the roaches. If it is playable then I will persevere.

Many thanks Neil!


[Edited by Atch on 11-14-2003 at 12:09 PM GMT]

Oneiromancer
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Atch wrote:
Tomb Vault
I have since had a go at tackling the eyes in 1S, 2W with Beethro but it is impossible with the brain present – I’ll try it without the brain later.

Oh no, the eyes are definitely passable with Beethro from both sides with the brain present, I did it myself just now. Keep trying!

Tomb Escaper
The secret room at 1S, 5W was not present in v3 – I take it that this is left as an exercise in making impossible rooms playable – or is it?

Nope, that room is definitely solveable, almost the same as it was in The Dreaming. But thanks for making me solve it again to check, I found a way to make the first serpent unnecessary in one part and I have fixed it. If you still can't solve it ask and I can help.

The Horde
In the entire Treasure Hunt I only had to look for help on one room: 1S, 1W. Is that behaviour with wraithwings only found with a brain present?

Yeah, wraithwings act really weird with a brain around. That part of this room teaches you to...assume nothing!

I found 1N greatly improved and for me now the hardest room in the hold that is except for the secret room at 2S, 1W. Is this room playable? I survived the second wave of eyes but just could not get past the roaches. If it is playable then I will persevere.

Persevere, please! It requires an extreme amount of efficiency, which is why it is not a required room. It took me many, many tries to beat it myself, but I knew it was possible. Although I had to re-wind the serpent three times during testing, that was very annoying. I believe others have beaten it, but perhaps not since in v4 there was a bug that you couldn't get back to the rest of the level because of the red door in 1S 1W. But that was fixed in v5 of course. I think that I killed the queens just before the horde of tar babies arrived...it was definitely a close call. I thought about adding more checkpoints, but this room is really meant to be a challenge, so I think I'll leave them out.

Thank you for the comments, Atch, I am glad you enjoyed the hold so much!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Atch
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I have just completed Tomb Escaper: 1S, 5W, what a great room and there I was thinking that I was so clever in getting the first snake to turn back on itself! I can see that it wouldn’t fit the theme of The Horde but couldn’t you have fitted it in Tomb Raider, perhaps replacing the spider room at 4E? There again it is available for anyone to find so leaving it where it is is a very pleasant surprise.

Well on to The Horde: 2S, 1W – this may take some time.


[Edited by Atch on 11-14-2003 at 01:04 AM GMT]

Atch
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The Horde: 2S, 1W

It didn’t take so long after all (11.25min, 859 moves, two deaths); it is strange how your perception of a room changes when you know it to be definitely solvable. Another great room in fact I think it would have graced The Horde as an open room.


Well that just leaves the eyes in Tomb Vault: 1S, 2W (with brain) for the complete Treasure Hunt experience.

Oneiromancer
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Atch wrote:
I have just completed Tomb Escaper: 1S, 5W, what a great room and there I was thinking that I was so clever in getting the first snake to turn back on itself! I can see that it wouldn’t fit the theme of The Horde but couldn’t you have fitted it in Tomb Raider, perhaps replacing the spider room at 4E? There again it is available for anyone to find so leaving it where it is is a very pleasant surprise.

The reason it is a secret room is because I already released it once, in my hold called The Dreaming, which is on this Architecture board. In fact, another room from that hold as well as four rooms from The Dreaming 2 are rooms in The Horde level of Treasure Hunt. Anyway, since the room which is now 1S 5W was received so well I wanted to include it in this hold but it didn't really fit in with the rest of the style, so I made it a secret room.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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File: Spider room.hold (1.3 KB)
Downloaded 61 times.
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Okay, here are two new versions of the...well...contested spider room, 4W of level 1. They are identical in layout, the first one has goblins in addition to spiders, the second has roach queens in addition to spiders. I am more partial to the roach queen version, but I would like to know what you all think. The rooms are more involved but still pretty easy, and it is still possible to forget that a spider might be around and die accidentally.

So, please let me know!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

StuartK
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Okay, here are two new versions of the...well...contested spider room, 4W of level 1. They are identical in layout, the first one has goblins in addition to spiders, the second has roach queens in addition to spiders. I am more partial to the roach queen version, but I would like to know what you all think. The rooms are more involved but still pretty easy, and it is still possible to forget that a spider might be around and die accidentally.

I found the goblin room more of an interesting challenge. The roach queen would moreso fulfil your requirement for an 'easy' room. The spider problem is more present in the goblin room. In the roach room they just get surrounded by roaches and are thus easy to detect.



Also *blush*, regarding my other comment about the spider rooms, it was based around a very, very silly misconception. At the time I had played through the hold, but by extensive application of tunnel vision (no pun intended) I didn't 'get' the overall hold design. I honestly thought the two tunnels were seperate (the spider room was the only point at which I made a connection) Yeah I know - it's embarassing. Perhaps you could 'Hollywoodize' your level comments, just to make sure even the half awake 'get it' Or leave it as is, and I'll just get some sleep I'd be curious if anyone else had the same problem, and are willing to admit so in public. I guess it's unlikely on both counts though

Oneiromancer
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StuartK wrote:
I found the goblin room more of an interesting challenge. The roach queen would moreso fulfil your requirement for an 'easy' room. The spider problem is more present in the goblin room. In the roach room they just get surrounded by roaches and are thus easy to detect.

I would definitely be curious on other views, but if there aren't any I'll take your word for it. It doesn't matter to me either way.

Also *blush*, regarding my other comment about the spider rooms, it was based around a very, very silly misconception. At the time I had played through the hold, but by extensive application of tunnel vision (no pun intended) I didn't 'get' the overall hold design. I honestly thought the two tunnels were seperate (the spider room was the only point at which I made a connection) Yeah I know - it's embarassing. Perhaps you could 'Hollywoodize' your level comments, just to make sure even the half awake 'get it' Or leave it as is, and I'll just get some sleep I'd be curious if anyone else had the same problem, and are willing to admit so in public. I guess it's unlikely on both counts though

Well, to make (almost) every room on level 3 I copied and pasted each room on level 1. And then I added pits and walls to make it look like there was a cave-in. I assumed most of the rooms would look similar enough...all the force arrows with dead ends, the shape of the maze, the spider room of course, the tar room...all basically the same design. So yeah, you might be the only one. And then there was the fact that on entering level 2 you are placed right next to the exit stairs, which implies that's where you just came from, which Eytan even commented on in the first version. If more text was allowed on the intro screens for each level I would put more, but I only have limited space. I'm happy with the scrolls I have too. No, I think that you're just going to have to live with your mistake.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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To be honest, when I first played through the hold, it was only until after I played through 3 or 4 of the level 3 rooms that I saw the connection with level 1.

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Oneiromancer
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I have now added scrolls on levels 2 and 3 that should help people realize that the stairs on level 2 are supposed to lead back to level 1 again. Of course after the trap is tripped it doesn't look the same, but hopefully it makes more sense now. I also slightly changed the wording on the level 3 intro screen for the same reason.

Any additional comments on the spider room, which one I should use, etc?

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 11-14-2003 at 06:02 PM GMT]

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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I didn't have time to look at the spider rooms yet... But as for the staircase plot point, maybe it's best not to put it in scrolls but rather in the level descriptions? Just seems more appropriate to me.

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Oneiromancer
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Here's explicitly what I did:

In the Entrance to Level 2, on a scroll near the green door (if I put it near the stairs then the player could use it to escape from the serpent): "Welcome to our Vault! The only way out is the way you came in, but we wouldn't want you to leave without getting what you are here for..."

When you go to Level 3, the text used to say, "...I hope I can get out of here...'" Now it says, "...I hope I can get back through here...'"

In the Entrance to Level 3, there is now a scroll. The scroll is actually there at the exit to Level 1 but the player couldn't reach it (I added some pits and arrows to accomplish this). The scroll reads, "If you're reading this, then you've infiltrated our Vault and triggered our defenses..." and more that I won't put here. It might be more fun to have the scroll surrounded by walls and have another scroll outside it that says, "Break walls in case of Vault infiltration" and when you come back up the walls are of course broken and the scroll can now be read.

So, too obvious? Not obvious enough? Do you still think I should get rid of the scrolls?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Here's explicitly what I did:

In the Entrance to Level 2, on a scroll near the green door (if I put it near the stairs then the player could use it to escape from the serpent): "Welcome to our Vault! The only way out is the way you came in, but we wouldn't want you to leave without getting what you are here for..."

That seems a bit heavy handed out of context, but given the nature of the treasure, it actually fits in well.

In the Entrance to Level 3, there is now a scroll. The scroll is actually there at the exit to Level 1 but the player couldn't reach it (I added some pits and arrows to accomplish this). The scroll reads, "If you're reading this, then you've infiltrated our Vault and triggered our defenses..." and more that I won't put here. It might be more fun to have the scroll surrounded by walls and have another scroll outside it that says, "Break walls in case of Vault infiltration" and when you come back up the walls are of course broken and the scroll can now be read.

Oooh, I like the "break walls" idea.

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Oneiromancer
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Okay, it is done! Thanks!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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Ok, I solved the hold (v5). A couple of comments:

I found the horde 1N to be the hardest room in this level, including the secret room. In the end I solved it by:



I did, however, notice that the stairway still returns you to the beginning of the level instead of to the hold ending

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Oneiromancer
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eytanz wrote:
Ok, I solved the hold (v5). A couple of comments:

I found the horde 1N to be the hardest room in this level, including the secret room. In the end I solved it by:

Click here to view the secret text

×Getting the snake to place its head on the row below the queens, then growing eggs on both sides of it, and moving away as they became roaches, killing them (while the snake was stationary) and repeating. Took me about 5 rounds of this before it was reduced to nothing. Is this the intended solution? Or was there something else I missed?

No, the intended solution is similar to how I intended it before...

I did, however, notice that the stairway still returns you to the beginning of the level instead of to the hold ending

I really don't understand this, as I know I checked that while I was making v5. But I just checked again and it did say "End Hold", and what's more, my ending text is gone! I think I can recover it from another version I have lying around. But this is definitely some kind of bug, I will report it.

Thanks for the comments!

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 11-15-2003 at 09:12 PM GMT]

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

eytanz
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Oneiromancer wrote:
No, the intended solution is similar to how I intended it before...

Click here to view the secret text

×run around the serpent, killing the brains, end up on the bottom of the serpent, usually it turns around and blocks roaches from coming at you from one side (you only need it to go down one square below its lowest one if you are careful). If it doesn't cooperate at least you have the room exit right there to try again, don't have to restart really. It doesn't take too many tries for me. Anyway, you go get the potion when it becomes available and then maneuver the serpent into roaches or take it up to the top, whichever way you like.

Well, the first part of that was more or less what I did (I actually had an easier time standing to the left of the serpent than to the bottom, though). But once the potion was available -



I'd love to see a demo of the intended solution, if you have one.

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Oneiromancer
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Okay, I know what happened. This is an example of a very faulty memory. As the room was originally, there were no force arrow on the top border. But then you guys were too smart and figured out an easier solution. So I added brains, but that made the roach queens move all over the place. So I added force arrows. That made it so you couldn't kill the serpent by killing one queen and then forcing the serpent into the hole it made, which was my original solution. When I playtested the room I probably got lucky and had a very short serpent due to the main part of the room and only needed one round of roaches spawning to kill it. But later I just forgot that I did it that way and kept thinking of the original solution.

I don't think it's a bad puzzle though. There might be a little luck involved but at least level 4 is not as linear as the other levels so you can come back to it when you get frustrated. But, any suggestions would be welcome. I guess I could always change it all the way back to the original way and leave the trivial solution intact, but I really wanted the invisibility potion to be involved in the puzzle. I could just have a force arrow be missing in one location so the serpent would have somewhere to die even if all the roach queens are killed. Thoughts?

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 11-15-2003 at 09:41 PM GMT]

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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File: Tomb Vault 1W.hold (908 bytes)
Downloaded 59 times.
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Hey, I'm sorry to do this again, but somehow I didn't see that in Level 2 1W when you get to the point where you use the mimic potions to beat the room, that you can just kill the roach queens before spawning. Believe it or not, every single time I played the room I made it a priority to kill the serpent first. I think this was subconsciously because I wanted to solve the puzzle of moving the mimic from right to left against the roaches and so I just didn't see it could be avoided entirely. I have now placed the roach queens in the corners with force arrows and I have made a copy of the room for people to try out, attached to this post. It is definitely solveable (and pretty easy once you know what to do) but no one wants to have to fight through the entire level just to get to that point to test it out.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

esskay
Level: Roachling
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I'm having some trouble...

Can someone give a demo of L21S1W?

Thanks!

I'm still a bit dumbfounded by the amazingness that is L2E.

Oneiromancer
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esskay wrote:
I'm having some trouble...

Click here to view the secret text

×Level 2 1S1W... I just can't get it. I tried with the mimic killing the mother first, but no matter how I try, I always end up with 3 babies inaccessible. I've tried running in, stopping at various places, but I can't get through.

Can someone give a demo of L21S1W?

In the final version, I tried to make it so it is not possible to use the mimic to kill the mother. Sorry! You can find solace in the fact that you will now not have to fight through the eyes in 1S2W both ways, since you had to clear that room to get down to the mimic potion. Once you finally get back to the upper corner of 1S1W...I believe that the solution is alluded to in an earlier post.

If you had downloaded an earlier version from this thread (and not the final version from the thread on the Holds forum) and just not had a chance to play it for a while, then it is definitely possible to kill the mother with the mimic but I will leave that to you since it is not the "official" way.

I'm still a bit dumbfounded by the amazingness that is L2E.

Thanks!...I think. Since there are no East rooms at all on level 2, and I doubt you're referring to Level 1 2E, I'm going to assume there's a typo and that you are simply pleased with Level 2 as a whole, which in turn pleases me. So again, thanks!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams