Things I currently don't love about TCB

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coppro
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Think about them from the architect's perspective, not the player's.

04-16-2007 at 02:04 AM

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Rabscuttle
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Builders are like wraithwings - predictable with 1, semi-predictable with 2, and rapidly descend into chaos if there are any more. Chaoticness is not necessarily a bad thing and certainly nothing new - just look at the war holds.

For the most part, I don't mind builders too much. Manipulating just one can be pretty interesting and trying to optimise The City Beneath : Upper Lowest : 1 North, 1 West was fun. I've still got no idea how they loop around multiple relay stations (with or without the arrow) If they get blocked, sometimes they turn around straight away, sometimes they wait a few turns.

I do dislike how they can be used for gratuitously extending the length of rooms. The City Beneath : Lowest Proper : 1 North, 1 West certainly has a lot of activity, but contains too much waiting for the most part. The City Beneath : Lowest Proper : 1 South was also a tad frustrating as there's no way of clearing any of the gel for yourself.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-16-2007 02:36 AM]

04-16-2007 at 02:36 AM

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coppro
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

The arrow means that they never change their mind, regardless of what's in the way. Without the arrow, I think they need to be completely blocked for about 3 or 4 turns to switch targets. Each builder always goes in a loop - they start at the nearest, then head out to the nearest one they haven't visited, then when they're there, they choose the one nearest that they haven't visited, until they have a loop. In all cases, the proximity of something is calculated by the pathmap - so the least number of squares walking, given the current situation. That's what makes hordes so unpredictable - they're constantly changing their minds based on the proximity of other things. Also, when calculating the build marker to go to, they seem to never pick one that another citizen already has "called" unless all the others are taken, and they base it off of how close it is to the current position - not which gets them to the next relay station fastest. Lastly, a build marker does affect which relay station they'll pick when they need to plot a loop - they'll go to the one nearest the marker they build, not the one nearest the position immediately before leaving for the marker.

Also, it seems that a builder will wait indefinitely for a build marker to become buildable if they can't, which causes holdups sometimes in the last level of TCB.

04-16-2007 at 02:54 AM

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NiroZ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Regarding builders, perhaps if instead of just highlighting the next waypoint for them, have a line displaying their next 4 waypoints, including the relay points.

Also, is it just me, or is the 'faded out elements that the builder is going to build' very distracting and at some times obscuring the screen? I'm mainly talking about UL:1E here.

However, it think that there are plenty of uses for builders, as rooms like 2N1E, or THAT secret room.

04-16-2007 at 03:02 AM

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Rabscuttle
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

I have seen multiple builders pick the same build target - in LP: 1N1W where there should be more than enough squares to share around.

I have some theories about when they decide to pick a new build target, but I will need to do a few tests.

I am, of course, probably wildly inaccurate and so I'll be interested in seeing the source code for builders when it is released.

:)

04-16-2007 at 03:08 AM

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Rabscuttle
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

NiroZ wrote:
Regarding builders, perhaps if instead of just highlighting the next waypoint for them, have a line displaying their next 4 waypoints, including the relay points.

I think they only plan their journey one waypoint at a time (at least in terms of actual building). If the loop of relay stations are different for each builder then that could be useful information though.

04-16-2007 at 03:10 AM

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coppro
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

Rabscuttle wrote:
I have seen multiple builders pick the same build target - in LP: 1N1W where there should be more than enough squares to share around.

I have some theories about when they decide to pick a new build target, but I will need to do a few tests.

I am, of course, probably wildly inaccurate and so I'll be interested in seeing the source code for builders when it is released.
:)

Hmm.. you're right. I guess they don't care about other builders. My theory then, would be that they alternate between build markers and relay stations, and always go to the one that they can get to quickest when going to build markers, and that when they have relay stations, they create a cycle that they use, and after the cycle, they check for new stations to go to, and if there are any ones that aren't in the cycle, they go to them, and then when they're finished, they go back to the beginning and do it again. I don't know exactly how the manage blockages, but it seems that if a blockage occurs, they skip that station that time around the cycle, or find a new marker. It also seems that a builder's decision to go to any point doesn't change unless it loses access to its desired target.

04-16-2007 at 03:22 AM

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Maurog
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

They are impossible to predict. Consider a group of builders without orders in a loop between two or more stations until you step on a certain square and they start building. Now, making them start in just the right time will result (after like 300 turns) in them being stuck like that:

###B
##BB
###B

The _ is where the three outwards guys want to build a wall, and the inside guy just wants out to get to the nearest station. Will you be able to predict which of the initial states results in the above situation? Heck no! One or two builders tops are kind of okay, but more than that and it gets as random as it can go without actually being random. Let's hope people don't abuse them too much in holds...

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04-16-2007 at 10:39 AM

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Unspeakable
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

The Neather is predictable in that if you restart a room with the same general approach but a few different moves he will do the same thing. This isn't the case when you have 8 builders working a small area.

04-16-2007 at 06:28 PM

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Unkillable Cat
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Having played the game far enough to find out myself, I will agree with the people here that say that builders are NOT a good addition to the game.

The game has plenty of stuff in it already. This pushed it way overboard.

04-30-2007 at 11:07 PM

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Tahnan
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Random thing I don't like about 3.0: the fact that, when you die, a lot of the monsters are somehow caught midmove. It just looks messy.

05-08-2007 at 05:54 AM

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NiroZ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Tahnan wrote:
Random thing I don't like about 3.0: the fact that, when you die, a lot of the monsters are somehow caught midmove. It just looks messy.

You mean unpredictable? But yes, it's annoying, even thought it was in JtRH.

05-08-2007 at 07:58 AM

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Tahnan
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

NiroZ wrote:

Tahnan wrote:
...when you die, a lot of the monsters are somehow caught midmove. It just looks messy.
...yes, it's annoying, even thought it was in JtRH.

Huh? No it wasn't. See the attached image. On the left, Beethro about to die. In the middle, the result of pressing the "wait" key in 2.0: all of the roaches move, and boom, No More Beethro. On the right, the result of pressing the "wait" key in 3.0: some of the roaches have moved, and some are caught in the middle of their moves, halfway onto the next square. (This is independent of move order, too: the roach that kills Beethro in that image is actually the last to move; when he's killed by the first roach to move, there are still roaches caught mid-move.)

So anyway, yeah, that's the thing I don't like. (Where by "random thing" I don't mean "it happens at random", I mean "here's something wholly disconnected from the previous discussion; something I randomly don't like".)

05-08-2007 at 05:46 PM

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Briareos
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (-1)

Tahnan wrote:
So anyway, yeah, that's the thing I don't like.

Try not dying as a workaround in the meantime...

np: Max Richter - Sunlight (Songs From Before)

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05-08-2007 at 05:58 PM

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Elrithien
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+2)

Actually, what really irked me was the storyline, after a certain point. [Note to any other weirdos who care about the story of a puzzle game: major spoiler down there]

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05-16-2007 at 07:33 AM

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NiroZ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Elrithien wrote:

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Finding a giant army there - where did they come from? Did I miss something (several somethings) exploring the City? Beethro seems to know what's up, but I sure don't.

Are you sure? That was referenced to several times, including the place that you just hinted above.

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The ... er ... last villian. Or main opponent anyway, the 'only one who might be able to stop Beethro.' ... Huh? On the plus side, I certainly didn't see that coming. But, even after the fact, I had no idea why he was there. Sure, he was protecting a secret ... I guess ... but it's not clear to the player why such a secret is so important to the Opponent (or to the Pit Thing. Or to the Empire. Or to Beethro.) Maybe the sequel will say?

Have you played JtRH?

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 10:26 AM]

05-16-2007 at 08:13 AM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

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The main antagonist, A1, who had all these great megalomanical speeches - even with, for a video game, deep philosophy - simply vanished. It didn't occur to me until actually beating the game that I had (probably) killed him along with the 255 Slayers. You think Beethro would've said something.

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×Finding a giant army there - where did they come from?

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05-16-2007 at 01:23 PM

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Banjooie
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Having finished TCB, and JTRH, and even KDD...

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05-17-2007 at 09:58 PM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+2)

Who says you're not supposed to be confused?

Well, honestly, I think we left enough there that you could piece some of it together, and the rest was saved for later. I really didn't want to just explicitly say everything that Beethro learned or guessed. You have to spot the overall theme and intuit some things.

Morpheus: You take the blue pill, right? And that's going to put you to sleep. I mean, in the Matrix world it will put you to sleep, because you're already asleep in the real world and just dreaming about the Matrix world, which is a virtual reality thing. Yeah, then me and Trinity will throw you in the back of a truck and drive you to your home in the Matrix. You take the red pill, and that's actually going to wake you up from the virtual reality Matrix thing. Which kinda sucks, but hey, it's your choice.

My point being it's not always a good story choice to spell out exactly what is happening.

-Erik

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05-17-2007 at 11:43 PM

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Ezlo
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Yeah, but if Beethro can understand something that I can't, I'm going to get kinda annoyed.

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05-18-2007 at 01:10 AM

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Banjooie
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Erik: I understand this in terms of not saying it in the game.

By the same token, I'm allowed to say 'You know that part of the Matrix where Neo was being drug back? Was that a religious reference?' outside of the movie, and then there can be a discussion. That's why it's in this thread, see. So I can have it explained to me, because I am dense and slow.

05-18-2007 at 10:39 AM

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ErikH2000
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+3)

Banjooie wrote:
Erik: I understand this in terms of not saying it in the game.

Sorry, man, not trying to make you out to be a dumb guy.

Here's some answers to your questions about the story. So what's the deal with the Asking Chamber and Lowest Point? ...

Click here to view the secret text

So yes, there are loose ends and things left unexplained. These are purposeful.

-Erik

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05-18-2007 at 08:27 PM

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Banjooie
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Oh. See, that makes everything a lot clearer. I had a vague idea this was somewhat possibly the case, but that made it a lot easier for me to understand.

05-18-2007 at 10:44 PM

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Kwakstur
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Yeah, being that my computer has less than 1 gig left of space, I would like to see my demo version of TCB not contribute to the pain. :no

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06-09-2007 at 04:38 PM

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Mattcrampy
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Kwakstur wrote:
Yeah, being that my computer has less than 1 gig left of space, I would like to see my demo version of TCB not contribute to the pain.

Those people that you bought the computer from that told you that this was more space than you'd ever need? They lied.

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06-09-2007 at 06:39 PM

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Briareos
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Mattcrampy wrote:

Kwakstur wrote:
Yeah, being that my computer has less than 1 gig left of space, I would like to see my demo version of TCB not contribute to the pain.

Those people that you bought the computer from that told you that this was more space than you'd ever need? They lied.

Of course they lied...

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np: Popnoname - No Doubt (White Album)

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06-09-2007 at 07:05 PM

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