eytanz
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John259 wrote:
Over 40MB for a demo is too big. Not everyone has broadband yet. A demo should ideally be no more than 5MB and never more than 10MB. That could be achieved by cutting out all the irrelevance at the start and commencing with The Uncturage, the first level with anything interesting in it.

Like other people wrote above, 40MB for a demo is pretty small these days. But cutting out what you call "the irrelevance" would be a terrible way of making the demo smaller, since that stuff is really integral to TCB. If people buy TCB based only on the puzzle stuff and ignore the story stuff, then we lied to them. Plain and simple.

I'd much rather people don't buy TCB than buy TCB and discover it's a very different game than what they expected. You are now disappointed, which is a shame, but somewhat unavoidable in the big picture - there will always be people who don't like a game. If you paid money for TCB and discovered it was really different than what you expected, you'd be disappointed and angry. Which is a lot worse, both for us and for you.

I should mention that there are current discussions among the devs on somewhat revising the demo based on players' reactions, though I'm not sure I'm allowed to give the details.

Beethro sheathing and unsheathing his sword seems to be completely unnecessary. Until you release that it happens automatically, you can wander round the documentation for quite a while failing to find the right keys to do it.

Instructions pop up on the screen telling you that it is automatic. That said, they may be too easy to skip and/or not clear enough.

It's very difficult in places to see where Beethro can walk and where he can't. Yes, I know I can move him and see what happens but that shouldn't be necessary.

Are you talking about the lighting system? Or about the city graphics? Or what? If it's about the lighting, did you try to adjust the gamma value and/or turn off alpha blending?

Transferring between game levels without any stairs is unfortunate. Yes, I know that various areas of the city are on the same physical level in story terms, but it means that unless you're very careful you miss the introductory screen for the new level. The level introduction text needs a non-standard keypress introduced to acknowledge it, so it can't be accidentally missed.

That's a good point - though I've never really heard of anyone else having this problem. It certainly didn't come up in beta testing, and I never experienced it.

The dreaded Danforth is still around I see. I thought we'd seen the last of him. For anyone in two minds about purchasing the game, Danforth will in most cases put them off completely.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But if you look at the "things I love" thread, you'll see that the general reaction to Danforth is more glowingly positive than to any other element in the game. So I'm ready to declare him a success, and I doubt you've seen the last of him.

Maybe TCB gets better on the later levels. Certainly the force arrow rotation puzzles in The Uncturage are excellent and I hope for more of the same kind of creativity as I explore further.

I'm glad you enjoy the puzzle levels. I think you'll enjoy the rest of the puzzle levels in TCB. But fair warning - you will have to deal with several non-puzzle levels on the way.

There are far too many game elements now. The beautiful game has lost its elegance.

Honestly, I've felt that way when JtRH came out (even though I was involved with making it). I got over it at some point, though I can't tell you why or how. It's a really subjective feeling, so there's no sensible way I can argue with you on it.

I'm sorry, I feel very guilty now and really wish I could be more positive.

Please don't feel guilty. Honest feedback is always appreciated and welcomed. As the cliche goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time, and it's not your fault that we failed to please you, and I am thankful that you chose to explain what you didn't like about the game - that will be helpful in the future.


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NiroZ
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eytanz wrote:
Like other people wrote above, 40MB for a demo is pretty small these days. But cutting out what you call "the irrelevance" would be a terrible way of making the demo smaller, since that stuff is really integral to TCB. If people buy TCB based only on the puzzle stuff and ignore the story stuff, then we lied to them. Plain and simple.

I'd much rather people don't buy TCB than buy TCB and discover it's a very different game than what they expected. You are now disappointed, which is a shame, but somewhat unavoidable in the big picture - there will always be people who don't like a game. If you paid money for TCB and discovered it was really different than what you expected, you'd be disappointed and angry. Which is a lot worse, both for us and for you.

I should mention that there are current discussions among the devs on somewhat revising the demo based on players' reactions, though I'm not sure I'm allowed to give the details.

(note that I'm replying to everyone who talked about this topic, not just Eytanz)
Yes, in the scale of things, 40 MB is small. However, whenever I check out a game, let me assure you that the size of a download matters. If it is 100 MB or above, I'll probably investigate the game more before I check out the demo, and see if it's worth it. And then, next time my hard drive is full, it's the first thing to go.

Around 50 MB, I'll probably hesitate a bit, but the chances are I'll check it out anyway. However, on more than 1 occasion, I've started downloading such a demo, went off to do something else, and completely forgotten about it. Some I've downloaded, and never gotten around to installing.

When it hits the 5-10 MB mark, I'm always slightly impressed. Due to my 1.5 MBPS connection (yes, puny I know) it's quite literally a minute till I'm in the game playing it.

I probably should point out that there are many other factors that go into my decision making process, and it's definitely not a deciding factor, but it does count.

As for ways to shrink it, I honestly have no idea. Voice overs are one of the cooler things about DROD that help it stand out from the crowd, although I suppose you could cut out a few of the lines without making a bit impact.

Alneyan
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DROD is the only game I know that actually receives complaints because its demo version has *too many* features.

I expect CaravelGames to have used all the tricks in the book to shave off the demo size (bandwidth isn't free); at least, I'm unable to make the demo any smaller without any major drawback. The executable and its libraries weight around 5 mb uncompressed; I'm afraid everything else is media files, the very ones that explain why the full version stands at some 100 mb.

For some reason, I'm not convinced that a 5 mb demo with no voices, no sound and watered-down graphics to be terribly convincing. The AE full version at 15 mb sounds like a better fit for a smaller DROD version that hasn't been stripped of its features.

John259
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Thanks for all the interesting and thoughtful comments folks.

My reaction to Danforth might be a cultural or an age thing. I'm British, I'm in the mid-fifties, perhaps that's it. Game designers do need to realise that not all potential purchasers are teenage boys living in the USA though and this especially applies to puzzle games.

I did intend to suggest that all the non-puzzle stuff at the start should ideally be removed from both the demo and the full version. The two versions should be compatible of course. If it's needed for story purposes, that material could be put on the first level's introduction text ("Beethro arrives, looks round the city and fails to find anyone who can give him any information.") But doubtless it's far too late to consider changing the full version.

Disabling alpha blending does help with the problem I described to some extent but with so many different floor designs now it's still difficult to distinguish areas which can be reached from those which can't.

I've now finished the demo. Those arrow rotation and roach pressure pad puzzles are delicious, but some are perhaps a tad too tricky for so early in the game for newbies. It's so difficult I know to cater for those familiar with DROD and those brand new to it.

The new monster dispatching tutorials and addition to Clearing School are very useful for newbies and very nicely done.

Despite my reservations, good luck with the game guys, I realise you put a vast effort into it.

John

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krammer
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John259 wrote:
I did intend to suggest that all the non-puzzle stuff at the start should ideally be removed from both the demo and the full version. The two versions should be compatible of course. If it's needed for story purposes, that material could be put on the first level's introduction text ("Beethro arrives, looks round the city and fails to find anyone who can give him any information.") But doubtless it's far too late to consider changing the full version.

I think you're missing something crucial here...
The point is, TCB is no longer just "solve puzzles, find exit". It's a lot of that, but it's got exploration in it as well which make it a slightly different game. The demo shows off the new features well, but not the puzzles.
I do think that at least extending the demo by 1 more level would be a good thing.... although of course this will increase the demo file size...

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Znirk
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eytanz wrote:

Transferring between game levels without any stairs is unfortunate [...] unless you're very careful you miss the introductory screen for the new level.

That's a good point - though I've never really heard of anyone else having this problem. It certainly didn't come up in beta testing, and I never experienced it.

It happened to me several times in the demo. Once I restored the previous room entrance and stepped into the next room more carefully (and of course on a puzzle level I'd have been careful to begin with), the other one or two introduction texts I just ignored.

mrimer
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Yes, we have compressed demo media as much as possible, and we aren't going to cut content to make demo downloads smaller. I expect that people who balk at downloading a demo larger than 10MB really wouldn't be interested in downloading a full game that is over 100MB, or they are in a very small minority.

But we are planning on extending the demo, as Eytan mentioned. We will add another level of puzzle content (Deep Uncturage), and end the demo just before Under the Library. Deep Uncturage will remain in City style in the demo, so download size won't go up too much.

Also, we're planning on including all of the Danforth demo content in an exclusive Danforth hold on the special edition CD that will be available soon, so people who have the full version can have all that too!

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John259
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I don't want to go on boring you but here's a thought - could the demo contain a few carefully chosen totally separate disconnected sections of the game rather than the first few levels?

John

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zex20913
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It's probably not much of a concession, but on the Danforth screen (which you hate), images of future levels of the game rotate. You don't get to do anything but anticipate them, though.

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eytanz
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John259 wrote:
I don't want to go on boring you but here's a thought - could the demo contain a few carefully chosen totally separate disconnected sections of the game rather than the first few levels?

John

Probably not, for the purpose of transferring progress. Also - though I'm aware you don't like this - the whole point is that we *do* want to show people the non-puzzle areas, because they *are* a major part of the main game.

Also remember that the demo allows you to download user holds. And in the future, if there is a SmS hold that is more puzzle driven and everyone really loves it, there's always the option of makin a second demo based on it. But at the moment, the demo is there to make people buy TCB. I really don't want to do that by giving people a false idea of what TCB is like.

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AlefBet
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eytanz wrote:

Transferring between game levels without any stairs is unfortunate. Yes, I know that various areas of the city are on the same physical level in story terms, but it means that unless you're very careful you miss the introductory screen for the new level. The level introduction text needs a non-standard keypress introduced to acknowledge it, so it can't be accidentally missed.

That's a good point - though I've never really heard of anyone else having this problem. It certainly didn't come up in beta testing, and I never experienced it.

Yeah, this is a real issue. I noticed my brother playing the game, when he went from the fork to the Uncturage, he reflexively pressed the extra "6" key that would take him beyond the edge of the room and into the next. Since the transition happened automatically, the "6" dismissed the intro text before he realized it was coming. He was a bit surprised, and I told him what happened and how he could get a chance to read it, but he decided it wasn't important.

We might want to put a workaround for this type of thing. Perhaps something like: when a level transition happens without a staircase, the game won't allow any key mapped to a game event to dismiss the intro screen for one second or something like that. Just a thought.

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stigant
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Actually, I've had that sort of a problem with all three versions of DROD (or starting with AE which is the first one I played) even when I'm using a stairs. Often, I accidently hit a key before I'm done reading, or I was holding down the key when I entered the stairs etc. And there's a similar problem with watching demos. I think the real problem here is that ANY key takes you to the next screen (or on the demo screen, ANY key other than keys that have other functions). This is... not ideal. There should be one key (perhaps esc when watching a demo or enter when reading the level description) that takes you to the next screen so that you have to intentionally exit the screen rather than accidently exiting the screen. Also, perhaps some text to that effect at the bottom of the screen would be a good idea as well.

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krammer
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I'm with stigant. It didn't bother me because it's always been a problem and I never really thought about it. But yes, a fix like that would be good.

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mrimer
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krammer wrote:
I'm with stigant. It didn't bother me because it's always been a problem and I never really thought about it. But yes, a fix like that would be good.

I did make a fix for this in TCB, so that key presses don't immediately dismiss the level intro text screen.

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John259
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Also remember that the demo allows you to download user holds.

Many thanks for that info, much appreciated, and that is extremely generous. I reckon it would be only fair to buy the game if I did ever use its engine to run user holds.

Also thanks to the gentleman who mentioned that the Danforth screen shows previews of levels beyond the demo.

OK, that's more than enough from me, thanks for listening!

John

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zex20913
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Another thing I've noticed with builders (who'da guessed?) is that it's difficult to see what is the actual tile there, and which tile will be placed there by the builder in some rooms. Specifically UL 1E. It's just ugly.

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Banjooie
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People need to chill about the builders. They were used in what I feel is a sillydumb way in TCB, but there are so many awesome things, like making a maze that you go through once or twice, and it completely changes each time. Because of builders.

There are possibilities when you can arbitrarily change a room. Delicious ones.

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You just like them because you're a sadist.

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Blondbeard
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I previously said that the last element of randomness now has been removed. I was wrong, because now there is a brand new element of randomness. The builders. As far as I can tell there is no way for the player to know in which order the builder will build his squares. You can see the next square he will build, but not the square after that.

eytanz
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I really wish people stop misusing the word "randomness". There's nothing random about the builders. Randomness means that if you run the same room twice, you'll get different results. That's not the case with builders - neither the scripting, nor the builder's path finding algorithms, allow for any sort of actual randomness. If you make the same set of moves, so will the builders.

That's not to say that the builders aren't problematic. They are, on two levels:

1 - The scripting that places the build markers can be totally arbitrary, and is therefore totally unpredictable to the player. This was taken into account in TCB design, and it was felt it's not necessarily worse than 2.0 scripting. Which is still the case.

2 - Worse - and not something I thought about myself before TCB was released, and now I'm sorry about it - the path-finding for builders is really complicated. Complicated enough that if there's more than one or two builders, it's really difficult to predict where they'll go. Not impossible, but not something that can be done on the fly by a normal human being. So it's basically totally opaque.

I now agree that we sort of blew it with builders - though I'm hoping that as time goes by the patterns in their movement will become easier to spot - but arbitrariness and opaqueness, while still very problematic, are not the same thing as randomness.

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Blondbeard
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Alright... Let's just say I prefer knowing what elements does without having to play through a room several times (in some cases very many times). Scripting can be used in intuitive ways, like in the torture chambers, but builders are hardly ever intuitive. In some rooms you know more or less what they will do, but not exactly.

Remlin
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I didn't really have a problem with the builders. Sure, their movement was (for all intents and purposes) random, but in each room it was possible to come up with a general strategy and deal with problems as they came up. And let's be honest - any kind of monster in large enough numbers is essentially random. When you've got 20 roaches coming at you, it's nearly impossible to predict exactly how they'll move. But you come up with a heuristic, you know approximately what they're going to do, and you react as the situation changes.

That said, I did much prefer the rooms with only a couple of builders, where there was a bit more predicting and a bit less reacting.

b0rsuk
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Now that you mention that, I don't love force arrows either. Especially mazes of force arrows. They belong into the same category as mazes of evil eyes, trapdoors under tar, and spiders.

I'll complain a bit more about briars. They can actually grow more than 1 square in one direction (per move). It should really be capped on 1 square/move.

Actually, I don't love a lot of things, not necessarily DROD related.

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Unspeakable
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I actually like the idea of builders, they enable a lot of new room designs. However the rooms in TCB with too many builders that stumble over each other are irritating at best. It may not be strictly random, but it's certainly chaotic enough to be unpredictable especially when other monsters are added into the mix.

zex20913
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I like the term "fractal" for builders. A small change in the beginning of a room can make for a huge difference towards the end.

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Tahnan
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b0rsuk wrote:
I'll complain a bit more about briars. They can actually grow more than 1 square in one direction (per move). It should really be capped on 1 square/move.

That's something I certainly found unexpected. (A specific case: suppose a briar patch is connected to 12 roots; then twelve squares mature each turn. If there are fewer than twelve squares, it'll mature as many as there are, then grow, then mature the rest. But suppose it's got three squares left to mature, and when it grows there are only six squares that need maturing; it'll mature those, grow again, and mature the remaining three.)

It's not a bad thing per se, once you know it's there. But it's perhaps not how I would have designed them. I feel like it falls into my earlier complaint, about being about to find out how long this growth cycle will take but not being able to know how long the next one will take; when the next one is "instantaneous", that makes it even worse.

Incidentally, a word on "randomness": I have no problem with the word being used as a rough synonym of "unpredictable". After all, "random" means (or can mean) "any one of these possible outcomes could occur, with roughly equal probability." As it happens, that's not the case with builders: one and only one outcome will happen. (As eytanz said, if you play the room again, exactly the same sequence will occur.) However, from the point of view of the player, since it rapidly becomes impossible to determine from the current screen where exactly any given builder will move next, we're left looking at a number of options and saying, "Any one of those could(*) happen." Which is to say, from the player's point of view, it's random.

Of course, eytanz is also right that it's no more random than scripting. But then, I've complained about scripting before in various places using the word "random" (admittedly, also using the word "unpredictable"), to the effect that I don't especially like that, either.

(*)Personal to eytanz: epistemic based on speaker knowledge, not based on facts about the actual world.

Pinnacle
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I don't see what's so different from KDD L25's unpredictable 'Neather.
Sure, they do different things, but they have a similar 'feel' to them.

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Oneiromancer
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Pinnacle's point is more or less how I rationalized builders to myself. In some ways they are more predictable than the 'Neather, especially in that damn 2S room.

Game on,

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Tahnan
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Yes, but I didn't like the 'Neather either.

bflatjeff
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This may be a bit early, as I've only just encountered them, but I don't like conquer tokens. I don't really get the point. And they're ugly. I suppose I'll have to play a bit more and see if their inclusion makes sense to me.

BbJ

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