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Insane
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I got some mroe rooms, these are the remaining rooms I'm stuck on.
There's no secret or trick to them, mostly just trial and error.

2S 1E: That darn Guard.. The so called "Orb Trickery" is beyond me.
1S1W: I can't even solve the bottom part (can't get the toprightmost two), don't even mention the top one.
1S: Trial and error, needs more checkpoints. Also, I can't seem to get the second guard part. (managed the
first by luring them out).
1N: Been trying this ages, can't seem to find a good position. (Using one goblin, two is suicide).
2N 1E: Tried every single decoy combination (hitting the orb), can't get the wraithwing to come out of the top. Also, is this even possible? I thought about using the wraithwing to block the line of sight, but that can't work because evil eyes see through monsters. Or do they? My best combo so far was hitting the orb from the southwest so far, I managed to get him into the second from top row.

-Insane

[Last edited by Insane at 03-27-2007 06:05 PM]
03-27-2007 at 06:04 PM
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bwross
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Insane wrote:
I got some mroe rooms, these are the remaining rooms I'm stuck on.
There's no secret or trick to them, mostly just trial and error.

2S 1E: That darn Guard.. The so called "Orb Trickery" is beyond me.

Well that would be a secret or trick. It's already been mentioned that that changes the guard's behaviour. The only real difficulty in maneuvering the guard comes because of his sword.

1S1W: I can't even solve the bottom part (can't get the toprightmost two), don't even mention the top one.

The trick to that section involves using the Brain and diggable paths to help position things. Also remember that you don't have to clear or walk through all those paths... you just need to make sure that you'll be able to get to the exit afterwards. If you think about that for a bit you'll see that the top path isn't really that tricky a deal.

1S: Trial and error, needs more checkpoints. Also, I can't seem to get the second guard part. (managed the
first by luring them out).

It's a tricky level to put checkpoints on. Maybe one in or near the first room? At least players wouldn't have to redo those guards and the tar that way and could concentrate on the the other rooms. More than that is probably overkill... although I can see the second room causing some people some problems if they're not used to dealing with guards. It's easier than several of the guard rooms in JtRH, and I certainly didn't "trial and error" the second room (or any of it, for that matter), I went straight in and slayed them using basic guard methods and some trap doors as needed. A first room or outside checkpoint would certainly allow people to focus on that potential trouble spot.

And there are some real tricks to finishing this room... which should become pretty clear pretty fast when you get to rooms 3 and 4.

2N 1E: Tried every single decoy combination (hitting the orb), can't get the wraithwing to come out of the top. Also, is this even possible?

Very much so... I've done it twice.

I thought about using the wraithwing to block the line of sight, but that can't work because evil eyes see through monsters. Or do they?

They don't, but they don't have to... there's a more direct application of the wraithwing to this problem.

My best combo so far was hitting the orb from the southwest so far, I managed to get him into the second from top row.

You can't actually put the decoy there, so I'll assume you mean south-east. You could keep on with the trial and error, or you could actually try to work out the secret or trick as to why that direction is working better and figure things out. The key here is to know how wraithwings move (really simple in this case because there is only 1... it's essentially a roach if it's more than 5 away, and a roach queen otherwise) and how monsters respond to decoys. Understanding how to get that wraithwing out is a very useful skill, and even if you do eventually force it out with trial and error it's probably worth going back and examining the demo to see what's really happening. I assume that this will probably be important to understand in later rooms, and being able to think at that low level instead of just trying to force things will make things much easier when the number of options is much larger.

That's what I like about this hold so far... the puzzles are simple and can largely be forced, but if you take the time to actually work out how or why things work you'll end up being a better smitemaster overall. I'm guessing from the description that the lower levels are going to be less forcible, and require more thinking and understanding (making it very important to fully understand what you've done on the first level)... so I'm certainly looking forward to seeing them.

03-27-2007 at 07:31 PM
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bwross
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Insane wrote:
1N: Been trying this ages, can't seem to find a good position. (Using one goblin, two is suicide).

I decided to look at my demos to see if there was any particular magic I used. The answer is: not really. I did do it with both goblins alive, but largely because I didn't get around to killing one of them first (that demo is 52 moves). I used the northeast corner there.
03-27-2007 at 07:41 PM
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Insane
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I solved once south now. (Finally found a combination to kill the guards in the second room), and the rest was easy after that.

The problem is.
I'm stuck.
In the fourth room.
How do I get out? (Have the room cleared).

-Insane
03-27-2007 at 08:46 PM
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Kevin_P86
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Insane wrote:
I solved once south now. (Finally found a combination to kill the guards in the second room), and the rest was easy after that.

The problem is.
I'm stuck.
In the fourth room.
How do I get out? (Have the room cleared).

-Insane
Indeed. You need to ensure you do NOT step off the tunnel in the 4th room... :)

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03-27-2007 at 08:48 PM
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Insane
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
Insane wrote:
I solved once south now. (Finally found a combination to kill the guards in the second room), and the rest was easy after that.

The problem is.
I'm stuck.
In the fourth room.
How do I get out? (Have the room cleared).

-Insane
Indeed. You need to ensure you do NOT step off the tunnel in the 4th room... :)

Well that sucks. Any starters? I tried that initially but with no success, they're just overwhelming.

-Insane

[Last edited by Insane at 03-27-2007 08:54 PM]
03-27-2007 at 08:51 PM
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Kevin_P86
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The strategy I used (and what I assume is the intended strategy): make use of the fact that the four tunnels form a loop.

More specifically, if you're in the fourth room, you can use two of the tunnels (ending up in the lower-right room), causing the guards in the fourth room to move towards the lower-right of their room. Then, you can use the other two tunnels, and hopefully be able to kill one of them and then escape via the tunnel. Repeating this a few times should allow you to kill them all.

____________________________
+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.
03-27-2007 at 09:12 PM
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Someone Else
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No matter how hard I try, I cannot find a way to beat 2N1E. It is a bad idea to try to get the WW out, because it cannot help with the EE (unless there are scripts, which there aren't - I checked). So, I can kill the WW with the decoy but then can't get to the EE without it getting trapped, or I can kill the EE but can't get to the WW.

EDIT:
Never mind. I used the H&S rule.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 03-27-2007 11:47 PM]
03-27-2007 at 11:42 PM
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bobkberg
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I finally "solved" 2S, 1E

Click here to view the secret text


Unfortunately (so far), once I'm in there, I haven't figured out how to get back out. I'm beginning to think that I have to entice the guard out.

Bob

03-28-2007 at 05:14 AM
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bobkberg
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In fact, there are at least two different ways to kill the guard, but I'm having no luck at enticing him out.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Bob

03-28-2007 at 05:23 AM
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bwross
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bobkberg wrote:
In fact, there are at least two different ways to kill the guard, but I'm having no luck at enticing him out.

Anyone have any suggestions?

You definitely have to entice him out. As pointed out earlier in the thread, the guard will switch from path finding to roachlike behaviour when he can't find a path. The orb you have access to toggles that (and the orb inside the area is used to change the pathfinding so the guard heads towards the exit).
03-28-2007 at 05:58 AM
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bobkberg
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Bingo! Thanks!

Click here to view the secret text


Click here to view the secret text


Click here to view the secret text


Bob

03-28-2007 at 07:10 AM
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Insane
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Ok, I solved the Guard orb room totally by chance, and the four-square guard room by severe trickery.

Now I need the Goblinsnake room still trying to maneuver that, the room with the golem passages and the infamous Wraithing eyeball room. I thought about that, and it seems best to try to keep the Wraithwing on the spot where the evil eye goes when it sees me, but it's blocked by the wraithwing, and I kill the eye from above and then get the Wraithwing across the pit.

-Insane

EDIT: Solved the snakegoblin room.
Still can't get the rock golem room!

[Last edited by Insane at 03-28-2007 06:44 PM]
03-28-2007 at 04:20 PM
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Insane
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I tried the rock golem room again now.
This is how far I am now:

I figured that the only way to kill a golem and not block myself is to kill him on a corner.
There are 8 usable corners, and 10 golems. I figure I can get the last two golems onto the two checkpoints, but I just don't manage it for the bottom passage.

Also, I could kill him next to the brain force arrow, the problem is, I can't use one of the edges, so I still have a golem left to kill after I got two stuck ont eh checkpoints.

Any starters?

-Insane
03-28-2007 at 07:41 PM
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bwross
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Insane wrote:
Any starters?

Not much more than what I've already said. Don't be afraid to block passages and areas you don't need anymore and use the brain. I killed most of the golems without letting them move.

Edit: I forgot to mention the other hint I'd mentioned before. Use the diggable corridors. The ability to control what's open and when is useful.

[Last edited by bwross at 03-29-2007 01:06 AM]
03-29-2007 at 01:00 AM
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starwed
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Given that TCB is out, I'm going to shift development of this hold over to that engine. (Once I actually finish the main game, and clear the hw stack.) But I went ahead and slapped most of the interesting puzzles I already had in JtRH together, and added a second level to this hold.

Since TCB will make scripting a story a lot easier, I didn't bother with any of that (I had a little bit done but removed it), and some of the rooms aren't quite as polished as I'd like. (The level design sucks too.)) :( But the puzzles are more involved than the first level, I think. :)

Let me know what you guys think...

[Last edited by starwed at 04-11-2007 08:31 PM]
04-11-2007 at 08:30 PM
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starwed
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I haven't done much DRODing recently, but I was thinking of working on this hold again. (That, and attempting to finish L2+ of Beethro's teacher. ^_^)

Before I do any more work, I was wondering if anyone had comments on the 2nd level rooms I added? It was a while ago that I posted it, but figured it wouldn't hurt to check. :)

[Last edited by starwed at 01-22-2008 06:58 AM]
01-22-2008 at 06:58 AM
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talund
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I'd happily give you feedback on Level 2 if I could reach it. I've solved everything on Level 1 except for 1N, 1W. I can only get 4 of the 5 interior roaches with the bombs.

I have found a number of the rooms on Level 1 to be quite challenging and fun to puzzle through. Some very good use of the DROD movement "quirks"
02-04-2008 at 06:53 PM
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talund
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Okay - reached Level 2. Getting the roaches in order in 1N, 1W was a pain but interesting.

Comments so far:

I like the puzzle in 3W except I'm wondering whether it can be completed - if I lure the blue snake back up to the corner to block the roach so that I can kill it with the (mimic - I know forgot what it is called) while blocking the guard with the wraithwing. The guard kills the wraithwing, I kill the guard and the snake continues its merry way around the red tiles forever....

I thought that maybe I could save the wraithwing for another job but haven't been able to do so.

1W, I thought this was clever but easy.

1N, 1W - interesting puzzle but perhaps a little too hack and slash while you set things up.

2W, Clearly a little harder as I haven't quite figured out the sequence. I don't see how to place one without making it draw a goblin on to a force arrow headed the wrong way.

1N, 2W Nice use of movement quirks, not hard but a good puzzle.



02-05-2008 at 08:09 PM
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starwed
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1W, I thought this was clever but easy
This is mostly just to check that you understand the quirk of decoy placement order. The difficulty level of the rooms is a bit mixed up; in the finished hold there would be at least two separate levels made out of these rooms.

I like the puzzle in 3W except I'm wondering whether it can be completed -
All the rooms should be completable; it was a while ago, but I'm 99.9% certain that I tested the exact version uploaded. (And I don't think any changes made to the game have effected any of the rooms.) At any rate, I know this one can be won, so keep trying! (And maybe put even partial puzzle solutions in spoiler blocks, just in case.)

Also, I discovered an unintentional solution to the east most room earlier today. So if it doesn't seem like all the puzzle elements are being used, look for an alternate way...


02-06-2008 at 01:59 AM
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talund
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Lower Lab, 1N. This is an easier version of the quirk
Click here to view the secret text
so I might consider moving it to the first level.



[Last edited by talund at 02-06-2008 03:19 PM]
02-06-2008 at 03:10 PM
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starwed
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Lower Lab, 1N. This is an easier version of the quirk
Which quirk?

It's interesting that you thought it was easy; in designing it, it seemed like it might be quite hard to figure out.

[Last edited by starwed at 02-15-2008 05:41 AM]
02-15-2008 at 05:40 AM
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