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bandit1200
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
And didn't you spot the scroll at the entrance to level 18? That's the point of Slashfest - 12 rooms of *only* hacking and slashing. I'm not really expecting people to like it, or even play it. I just thought it might be a second level 13 or something
Yes, I read the scroll, but you are admitting you're not expecting people to like it or even play it, so I ask again, what is the point of it? And what do you have in mind for the level when you have your 25 holds finished and remove the warp room?

I used a macro recorder/player to do the wraithwing room to see what horrors were next, and I can't see any way to even start the room without becoming goblin dinner. Now watch someone come along and tell me it's easy. :P

[Edited by bandit1200 on 01-20-2004 at 07:12 PM GMT]
01-20-2004 at 07:11 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Well, considering that I am just basing my question on only seeing the JPG, and I don't know what the rooms on either side look like, I have to base my assumptions on just that picture. If I actually bothered to play the room, I probably would have realized that I had to stand on the damn door to solve the room, but that wouldn't occur to me from a blurry screenshot. And I hate contrived puzzles like that anyway.

Well, whatever, that's just sour grapes talking. You win this round, sparky.

Game on,

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01-20-2004 at 07:13 PM
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bandit1200
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
I see the answer to that room now - very clever,
Click here to view the secret text
I hope I'm not stirring up a nest of roaches here. :?
01-20-2004 at 07:18 PM
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urban
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  

L8 is quite nice, not too hard. The final room however doesn´t seem very obvious. Could anyone tell me how to finish tihs level, please?

Thanks
01-21-2004 at 06:38 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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It's a puzzle room with a tar lock. You have to hit the correct orbs. Which orbs to hit are hidden in the scroll clues.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
01-21-2004 at 06:52 PM
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eytanz
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Level 19 entrance needs a checkpoint.

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01-22-2004 at 02:08 AM
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eytanz
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On level 20, if you go from 1E to 1N1E via the left passageway, the room is unbeatable and you are stuck, since you can't return to 1E and choose the other path.

Level 20 1N needs a checkpoint.

[Edited by eytanz on 01-22-2004 at 03:03 AM GMT]

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01-22-2004 at 02:59 AM
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Scott
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Thats why playing things in the editor isn't the way to test. You can miss things like this. You can still miss them if playing properly but you will get more I am sure.
01-22-2004 at 04:51 AM
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Atch
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I had a month’s break from DROD but have now come back to Deep Hold having downloaded Deep Hold XVI: Into The Abyss. It is giving me a considerable amount of enjoyment although I would prefer to play a complete hold, even one poorly tested, to one coming in installments such as this. Speaking for myself I consider each installment as a new hold ignoring the previously completed levels which may have been improved or refined; consequently I may miss some gems.

Some favourite rooms:

Level 1: 1E

Level 4: 1E

Level 7: 2N

Level 10: 1N

My favourite level to date is 12 which would have made a superb mini-hold in its own right. Was Neil’s Tomb Vault (Level 2) in the final version of Treasure Hunt the inspiration for this Hawk? If so then it is one of the missing DH credits.

Level 8 would also have made an excellent mini-hold. Now that you know that you can, do you plan to redo the level with the appropriate room schemes Hawk?

I suppose that the Level 9 room plan shows a red hawk but it turns white when you have finished and looks more like a demon or goblin to me.

Up to and including Level 14 I thought that there was just the one dud room: Level 7: 2E which is no more than a tedious guessing game – I would forgive it if there were a checkpoint on each stage.

I rather enjoyed Level 13 and found it an absorbing time waster rather as solitaire is. I also used the shortcut mentioned by eytanz when completing the tar room and was able to complete 1W with three of the five mimics. Once you get the roaches and spiders out of the way you can zip round the eight rooms in no time.

I have come to a standstill in my version of Level 14 but have completed every room in the previous thirteen levels without any major problems. There were some minor problems: I had to redo the final three rooms of Level 3 three times and the final five rooms of Level 7 twice. I had not visited all the open rooms on the levels before entering the secret passages that went to some one-way rooms. The longest room for me was Level 5: 2N (59.13min, 3936 moves). The real time was more like 5Hrs because I was killed dozens of times in the west corridor; a checkpoint there would be invaluable. I was so relieved when that red gate finally dropped and with no inaccessible tar babies.

The sticking point on Level 14 is 1S, 2E where there is no green exit gate (in my version). However this is immaterial for I just can’t get the snake to hold its length – the best I have done is 7 squares but even then the stupid snake is determined to shorten. If you want to know how difficult this room appears to me then look at Bavato Level 6 Hawk. The snake is held in such a confining area here so to make the room more playable I would discard the trapdoor, or put it at the entrance, and take away the snake trap in the entrance area. Anyway I shall be warping to Level 15 for now.

To conclude Hawk, Deep Hold is a very fine body of work but I only wish that you had made three or four holds out of it.

01-22-2004 at 05:24 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Whooa........ ;)

Comments later, when I have time.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
01-22-2004 at 05:30 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Level 19 entrance needs a checkpoint.


Done.

Level 20 1N needs a checkpoint.

Done.

On level 20, if you go from 1E to 1N1E via the left passageway, the room is unbeatable and you are stuck, since you can't return to 1E and choose the other path.


Just press that little "R" key..... ;)

Some favourite rooms:

Level 1: 1E

Level 4: 1E

Level 7: 2N

Level 10: 1N


4:1E is one of my favourite rooms too. 10:1N goes to... Oneiro, I believe.

Why did you like them so much? Perhaps I can make more later.

My favourite level to date is 12 which would have made a superb mini-hold in its own right. Was Neil’s Tomb Vault (Level 2) in the final version of Treasure Hunt the inspiration for this Hawk? If so then it is one of the missing DH credits.


Nope.

Level 8 would also have made an excellent mini-hold. Now that you know that you can, do you plan to redo the level with the appropriate room schemes Hawk?


What do you mean?

I suppose that the Level 9 room plan shows a red hawk but it turns white when you have finished and looks more like a demon or goblin to me.


Your last guess is the most correct. Not completely, mind you.....


Up to and including Level 14 I thought that there was just the one dud room: Level 7: 2E which is no more than a tedious guessing game – I would forgive it if there were a checkpoint on each stage.


I don't know why I did that room. It's sort of like one of those memory puzzles. Anyone else not like it? If opinion is against me, I'll change it.

I rather enjoyed Level 13 and found it an absorbing time waster rather as solitaire is. I also used the shortcut mentioned by eytanz when completing the tar room and was able to complete 1W with three of the five mimics. Once you get the roaches and spiders out of the way you can zip round the eight rooms in no time.


The shortcut's gone. Actually, I was aiming for a little more tedious than that, but I guess it's okay.

The longest room for me was Level 5: 2N (59.13min, 3936 moves). The real time was more like 5Hrs because I was killed dozens of times in the west corridor; a checkpoint there would be invaluable. I was so relieved when that red gate finally dropped and with no inaccessible tar babies.


Most important.....did you like it? Was it enjoyable?

The sticking point on Level 14 is 1S, 2E where there is no green exit gate (in my version). However this is immaterial for I just can’t get the snake to hold its length – the best I have done is 7 squares but even then the stupid snake is determined to shorten. If you want to know how difficult this room appears to me then look at Bavato Level 6 Hawk. The snake is held in such a confining area here so to make the room more playable I would discard the trapdoor, or put it at the entrance, and take away the snake trap in the entrance area. Anyway I shall be warping to Level 15 for now.


Done. I also increased the length of the serpent to allow a little room for error.





Thanks for the help!

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
01-22-2004 at 11:46 PM
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eytanz
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On level 20, if you go from 1E to 1N1E via the left passageway, the room is unbeatable and you are stuck, since you can't return to 1E and choose the other path.


Just press that little "R" key..... ;)

You can't. You're in another room already; you have to go to the restore room. I'm not saying it's hard - but it's not a puzzle, any more than tossing a coin is. If you had designed it so that it's possible to know in advance which path to take, that'd be one thing. But at the time you make the choice - in 1E - you don't even know that it's a choice between being able to solve 1N1E and not. It's totally random. Plus, it forces the player to stop playing regularly in order to restore, which is just rude.

[Edited by eytanz on 01-22-2004 at 11:54 PM GMT]

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01-22-2004 at 11:52 PM
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Oneiromancer
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
10:1N goes to... Oneiro, I believe.

Nope, not me...it looks like one of Eytan's rooms though, in The Tomb of Nomb...what used to be the Entrance but is now 1N 2E.

Atch wrote:
My favourite level to date is 12 which would have made a superb mini-hold in its own right. Was Neil’s Tomb Vault (Level 2) in the final version of Treasure Hunt the inspiration for this Hawk? If so then it is one of the missing DH credits.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Nope.

Have you seen my final Level 2? Because the layout of your Level 12 is almost identical. Your puzzles are very unique, and I'm not saying that you copied me or anything...but the three concentric passageways leading to the center is very similar to my Vault, and is I believe what Atch is referring to.

Again, it doesn't really matter to me, but superficially there is a similarity, although not in the specifics.

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 01-23-2004 at 12:16 AM GMT: Misattribution of names]

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
01-22-2004 at 11:57 PM
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Avon
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Avon wrote:
My favourite level to date is 12 which would have made a superb mini-hold in its own right. Was Neil’s Tomb Vault (Level 2) in the final version of Treasure Hunt the inspiration for this Hawk? If so then it is one of the missing DH credits.


...but the three concentric passageways leading to the center is very similar to my Vault, and is I believe what Avon is referring to.
Game on,

I said what? Oh, it was Atch. Holy misattribution, Batman. :batman

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01-23-2004 at 12:12 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Avon wrote:
I said what? Oh, it was Atch. Holy misattribution, Batman. :batman

Bah, sorry, 4 letter names, starting with A, and you post more often, it just got stuck in my head. I'll go edit it now.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
01-23-2004 at 12:15 AM
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eytanz
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I haven't actually done this yet, but on level 19, it appears that if you solve 2E and leave through the south or east, you can never return to 1N1E and 1N, so if you didn't solve those rooms you're in trouble.

[Edited by eytanz on 01-23-2004 at 05:17 AM GMT]

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01-23-2004 at 05:08 AM
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Atch
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I won’t pull out the quote Hawk but you asked me what I meant by room scheme. For scheme read style which you can see listed in the editor. In Dugan’s each level is in one style only: Level 1 is Cavern, 2: Slime, 3: Cliffs down to 25: Sanctum. Somewhere in the Forum, presumably after you had designed DH Level 8, you asked how some architects were managing to have multiple styles on the same level. Therefore I thought that it would be a nice touch for your commemoration of Dugan’s to display the appropriate style: Room 1: Cavern, 2: Slime, etc.

You asked if I enjoyed Level 5: 2N. Oh yes, very much so, I always enjoy difficulty and this room was a most absorbing challenge. Of the ones completed, I would rate this the second most challenging room that I have yet played in DROD with the honours going to Bavato Level 4: 1S. I am very fond of tar and tar mazes but not orbs – I am not a percussionist – nor trapdoors with force arrows – I am not a dancer – I am an exterminator.

01-23-2004 at 06:01 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Atch wrote:
I won’t pull out the quote Hawk but you asked me what I meant by room scheme. For scheme read style which you can see listed in the editor. In Dugan’s each level is in one style only: Level 1 is Cavern, 2: Slime, 3: Cliffs down to 25: Sanctum. Somewhere in the Forum, presumably after you had designed DH Level 8, you asked how some architects were managing to have multiple styles on the same level. Therefore I thought that it would be a nice touch for your commemoration of Dugan’s to display the appropriate style: Room 1: Cavern, 2: Slime, etc.


I thought about changing it, but since all my stuff is in order, it would really take away the Catacomb floor's turn, and I don't think that's fair.

You asked if I enjoyed Level 5: 2N. Oh yes, very much so, I always enjoy difficulty and this room was a most absorbing challenge. Of the ones completed, I would rate this the second most challenging room that I have yet played in DROD with the honours going to Bavato Level 4: 1S. I am very fond of tar and tar mazes but not orbs – I am not a percussionist – nor trapdoors with force arrows – I am not a dancer – I am an exterminator.

Wow..... I thought that nobody liked it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
01-23-2004 at 07:09 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Level 19 has been fixed.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
01-23-2004 at 11:48 PM
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Atch
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I have now completed the sixteen levels of Deep Hold XVI: Into The Abyss. No further problems were encountered after Level 14: 1S, 2E, that you say you have corrected Hawk, except I should have liked to have had a checkpoint in the starting area of The Pot, Level 15: The Entrance. That is a tricky manoeuvre killing the roach and if you mess it up, as I did once, you have the tedious task of going through all those trapdoors again. One final word on the difficult Level 5: 2N, while I said that I had enjoyed it very much I should emphasize that this was only in retrospect. I do not at all enjoy difficult rooms that I cannot complete and can say that, at the time of playing, I was roundly cursing the sadist who had created this room.

To continue with Deep Hold from Level 17 I downloaded Deep Hold I to XX with jumps. From the symmetry of the floor plan Level 17 looks to have 14 rooms and I have completed 12 of these without problem. 1S, 1W is I see intentionally impossible, there is no orb to open the gate with for a start, but I am stuck in 1S, 2W. The problems start after the snakes. The tar conceals a green gate so you need to have killed the brain before crossing the force arrow to the west of the mother, and to kill the mother, initially with sword facing east, I require 10 moves. However after killing the five tar babies I only have 4 moves to play with and the newly spawned babies will not come after you without the brain. Should the concealed gate have been red? This would make the room rather trivial but it is the only way that I can see for the room to be cleared.

For now I have warped to Level 18 and cleared the 12 rooms. In the final room the force arrow prevents you from leaving so the blue door will not open. This is not an enjoyable level, I far preferred your Level 13, but there are no problems other than the exit.


[Edited by Atch on 02-02-2004 at 02:50 PM GMT]
02-02-2004 at 12:28 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Atch wrote:
I should have liked to have had a checkpoint in the starting area of The Pot, Level 15: The Entrance.


Ooooops. I made a big mistake. You see that yellow gate in the central roach's path? It shouldn't be there. The idea is that you have to enter the main area before the trapdoors or the roach will get trapped. All fixed now. So you have that other checkpoint to use.

1S, 1W is I see intentionally impossible, there is no orb to open the gate with for a start,

It is completely possible. One other guy got stuck here earlier on. The solution is really trivial.

but I am stuck in 1S, 2W.

I thought it was possible, because I did test it before. I'll change it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-02-2004 at 02:57 PM
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Atch
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More problems with Deep Hold I to XX with jumps

Since I added it as an edit to my last post you may have missed it Hawk but you can’t exit Level 18 because the force arrow at the entrance to the final (12th) room prevents leaving for the blue gate to open.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Level 19 has been fixed.
Just what have you fixed in Level 19? I see two relevant posts, both from eytanz, which are: no checkpoints in the entrance, now added, and that you cannot return west from 2E (nor north from 1S, 2E, a dead end). Have you now changed the room boundary gate in 2E from red to green, as it should be?

However leaving 2E was the least of my problems for this is an extremely challenging room being that it also has no checkpoints. To exit south or east required clearing the room twice and the first took 1:15:25 in 3141 moves, easily my longest DROD room to date. I now know every nook and cranny of this room intimately, can clear half of the room’s tar virtually with my eyes closed, I did it so often, and have been given a valuable insight into the properties of living tar, where it will become impassable and where a baby will be spawned.

I don’t know how people had the patience to play Webfoot DROD, I never got beyond Level 2, while you can’t play with abandon it certainly does concentrate the mind and I would recommend it as an exercise. Not a single slip in 3000 moves, it is akin to bomb disposal: I am now going to rotate the sword clockwise, clockwise, clockwise is that way (unless you are in a Danish bar), clockwise is that way, the clockwise key is w, I must press w, I am now pressing w, eyes closed, no arrgh, phew! After an hour of that I developed a concentration headache.

I am looking forward to doing this room with checkpoints to see how different it is. When you say that you have changed something Hawk does that mean that if I download this version again it will be amended, if not then where and when?

After the drama of 2E the anticlimax: 1S, 2E is OK but in 3E it is impossible to drop all the trapdoors in two places, and there is no secret exit this time. Both on the west side, south of the entrance, there is a single inaccessible trapdoor in the small rectangle within a larger one and SSE of there, where the single path splits then joins again, a length of 7 that cannot be dropped.

I have warped to and cleared the entrance in Level 20 but I think that I will now wait for the corrected Level 19 before proceeding and may go back to Level 17 to complete 1S, 2W. Incidentally I loved the trick to Level 17: 1S, 1W; although the solution was trivial it was a wonderful room. The single mimic room in Level 19: 1N was another favourite. Apart from the tedious Level 18, and despite the problems, I am really enjoying this hold Hawk: perhaps we are on the same wavelength.


[Edited by Atch on 02-07-2004 at 10:58 AM GMT]
02-06-2004 at 11:43 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Atch wrote:
Since I added it as an edit to my last post you may have missed it Hawk but you can’t exit Level 18 because the force arrow at the entrance to the final (12th) room prevents leaving for the blue gate to open.


Fixed.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Level 19 has been fixed.
Just what have you fixed in Level 19? I see two relevant posts, both from eytanz, which are: no checkpoints in the entrance, now added, and that you cannot return west from 2E (nor north from 1S, 2E, a dead end). Have you now changed the room boundary gate in 2E from red to green, as it should be?


All of the above.

However leaving 2E was the least of my problems for this is an extremely challenging room being that it also has no checkpoints. To exit south or east required clearing the room twice and the first took 1:15:25 in 3141 moves, easily my longest DROD room to date. I now know every nook and cranny of this room intimately, can clear half of the room’s tar virtually with my eyes closed, I did it so often, and have been given a valuable insight into the properties of living tar, where it will become impassable and where a baby will be spawned.


I can't understand this. I checked and you are right, but in the editor while testing I remember at least five checkpoints, as I had to restart a *lot* of times. I can't imagine where they went, and they are now replaced.

When you say that you have changed something Hawk does that mean that if I download this version again it will be amended, if not then where and when?


Whenever there is a bug found, I fix it immediately. Each new version will have all the changes suggested since the previous release unless I have explicitly stated that I am not changing something. So therefore all the fixes will be in version 21, which is nearly complete.

...but in 3E it is impossible to drop all the trapdoors in two places, and there is no secret exit this time. Both on the west side, south of the entrance, there is a single inaccessible trapdoor in the small rectangle within a larger one and SSE of there, where the single path splits then joins again, a length of 7 that cannot be dropped.

Oops. There were a couple of spaces that should have been trapdoors that I missed. Fixed.

Apart from the tedious Level 18, and despite the problems, I am really enjoying this hold Hawk: perhaps we are on the same wavelength.


Thanks!

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-07-2004 at 08:16 PM
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Stuwy
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Is Deep Hold ready to go into the Holds section after the bug fixes or you are creating more levels?
02-07-2004 at 08:34 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
As far as I know, Hawk wants this to be an ongoing hold that never finishes, as he'll keep working on it. Personally, I think the first few levels should be uploaded to Holds as Deep Hold - part 1, the next few should be Deep Hold - part 2, etc. He has said he won't release an anyone edit version until he gets to level 25, though, so it will certainly go for at least that long.

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Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!
02-07-2004 at 09:01 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
I think I eventually said this somewhere earlier. Up to level 25 will be Part One and then I will make Part Two in 1.7 which will be another 25 levels.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-08-2004 at 04:05 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
I just wanted to say...

I was going through the earlier part of this thread and I found out that eytanz and a couple of other people wanted 12:2N changed, but I don't know how I should do it. Is it good as it s, or is it okay?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-13-2004 at 03:44 PM
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Atch
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
I was perfectly happy with Level 12: 2N Hawk, 12 is my favourite level in Deep Hold to date.
02-14-2004 at 05:43 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold XVII - XX (0)  
Oh well.....

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-14-2004 at 07:54 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold XXI (0)  
And without further ado, here's # 21!

Drumroll, please!

:D

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 02-15-2004 at 03:23 AM GMT]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
02-15-2004 at 03:16 AM
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