jbluestein
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Blondbeard wrote:
By the way: I think it's slightly odd that you should have a right to watch a demo if the demos author don't want anyone to watch it.

If a demo's author doesn't want anyone to watch it, all they have to do is not submit it to CaravelNet.

Seems to me that once you submit it, you're essentially entering it in a contest for points on that room. Why would there be any expectation that you would at that point be able to keep it private?

Josh

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eytanz
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What Josh said.

Part of the problem here is that there is a conflict between two different purposes of Caravelnet - it is a highscore system, and it also is a demo-sharing system . It is clear from this thread and others that players enjoy both aspects. But, unfortunately, allowing demo downloads introduces vulnerabilities and unfairness into the highscore system, and restricting demo downloads weakens the other. There is no way (that I can think of) to have a solution that is perfect for both.

The other part of the problem is that most people posting here are biased one way or another, and there's a lot of people assuming that other people should share the same bias. I was certainly guilty of that too earlier on.

While I favor the demo-sharing aspect, I've actually come to the conclusion that the currently implemented solution is the best compromise yet, in that it seems the most balanced.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 02-27-2007 06:59 PM]

coppro
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I found a bug: Your demo is hidden for a week also, which blocks off H&S access. And you can't see the scores list on the high score page (see here)

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[Last edited by coppro at 02-27-2007 09:49 PM]

Schik
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coppro wrote:
I found a bug: Your demo is hidden for a week also, which blocks off H&S access. And you can't see the scores list on the high score page (see here)

That's incorrect. The demos were originally not downloadable for one week, but that was only a change in the game-server communication. And now they're downloadable immediately anyways. It sounds like your progress didn't get uploaded for this level, for some reason. Is there a particular room on that level you think you should have access to?

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RoboBob3000
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I thought the same thing was happening to me too, but then I realized I was dealing with Master Locks/Master Locks Expert discrepancy.

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Syntax
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Well, if whilst on the subject of potential bugs. I completed one of the 101 museum rooms (in 3rd I believe) but it didn't get uploaded as it dropped my connection as I was playing. I then viewed a demo which was a lot further down the high score ranks (for no particular reason, but I think it was 7th). I then played again and got #1. This solution was then postdated by a week.

silver
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eytanz wrote:
While I favor the demo-sharing aspect, I've actually come to the conclusion that the currently implemented solution is the best compromise yet, in that it seems the most balanced.

I agree (and withdraw my addition, since it was based on a different suggestion than the current impl.)


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[Last edited by silver at 02-27-2007 11:17 PM]

coppro
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Schik wrote:

coppro wrote:
I found a bug: Your demo is hidden for a week also, which blocks off H&S access. And you can't see the scores list on the high score page (see here)

That's incorrect. The demos were originally not downloadable for one week, but that was only a change in the game-server communication. And now they're downloadable immediately anyways. It sounds like your progress didn't get uploaded for this level, for some reason. Is there a particular room on that level you think you should have access to?

I have mastered the hold, and the scores page I pointed to is blank, and I cannot see any of the room images for it.

schep
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I don't care at all about most of this, except that I would not be happy if I ever feel like checking how other people did a room and was unable to download demos. (This would be true even if I were the first CaravelNet player to solve the room, but of course there's not much you can do about that. Other than distracting me when a new fun hold comes out.)

However, I think I would be just fine with the option to make one's demos private. When I do want to check out demos, I don't much care if I get the #1 or #8. And I doubt private demos would ever become so hugely popular as to make it difficult to find a demo that's even close to optimized. So whatever you score-valuing types decide with all this, here's one player interested almost exclusively in demo-sharing, not competing, who wouldn't mind the existence of private demos.

noma
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Blondbeard wrote:
I just realized that I think that a player should be able to choose if his demos should be public or not. I think most of us would choose to keep our demos public. If you choose to keep a demo private you shouldn't be able to download a demo from that room. As soon as you do that your own demos for that room (present and future) gets public.

I don't do sniping, but I still like the thought of others downloading my demos, and I like being able to download demos to check out ideas (I just rarely do, and I don't play the room afterwords). To have your demos public would off course be the default option. This way those who don't do sniping, and don't like to be sniped can avoid all of that.

Don't do sniping, huh? Look three posts above ya. Actually, you stated my suggestion more succinctly and clearly. In other words: you found a flaw and improved my demo, er, post. Good for you.

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[Last edited by noma at 02-28-2007 03:07 AM : Inserted web link. Thanks Syntax!]

Syntax
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(as an aside, the notepad type logo by the title of a post will link straight to that post)

Schik
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coppro wrote:
I have mastered the hold, and the scores page I pointed to is blank, and I cannot see any of the room images for it.

None of your demos for that level were accepted by the spider. I'm looking into it, but if you did anything unusual that might help, please let me know.

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coppro
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Nope. Didn't do anything odd. What about the highscores? It seems that it applies to everyone?

Schik
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coppro wrote:
Nope. Didn't do anything odd. What about the highscores? It seems that it applies to everyone?

No. For holds that don't let you see the rooms unless you've visited them, you also can't see the highscores unless you've visited them.

I've looked at one of the demos a little bit. It's invalid. Is this from a mass upload or a upload-as-you-go? And we should really take this conversation elsewhere, as it's not related to the discussion here.... let's just continue in PM.

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Maurog
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Summing up this and other threads it looks like this:

The CaravelNet community is split into three major camps - the Fun Loving Majority, the Competitors and the Optimizers. The Fun Lovin Majority is the largest group by far. These are the wonderful people who play the game for fun, being the core of the community. The only reason they weren't heard much in the threads is because the changes don't really affect them. The Competitors are the first minority, and they believe in personal achievement only. It means they want the highscores to represent purely your own accomplishments. The Optimizers are the second minority and just want to optimize everything. They believe that anything that gets the room closer to optimization should get rewarded.

Their take on sniping is as follows - the FLM encounters sniping very rarely. Moral stands aside, sniping doesn't affect them in any way. The Competitors hate sniping with passion because they consider it cheating. The Optimizers see it as just another tool in their arsenal.

Their take on demos is as follows - the FLM wants to download all demos just to enjoy them. The Competitors don't mind sharing demos with the FLM, but they really really hate their demos to be downloaded and improved by the Optimizers. The Optimizers want to share their demos and improve the demos of others.

The main issue seems to be resolving the conflict between the Competitors and the Optimizers without harming the Fun Loving Majority. The obvious solution would be allowing anyone to choose their camp, and then restrict Competitors to only their own demos, Optimizers only to their own and other Optimizers' demos, let the FLM download any and all demos, and make the FLM's demos available to all parties involved.

The one problem I see with this obvious solution is cheating (for example an Optimizer disguising as FLM) but any solution can suffer from that (including the currently employed one).

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Rabscuttle
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Another suggestion: What about penalising a player's score directly for streamlining other people's solutions? For example, for each (better) demo you downloaded before uploading, you lose 1 point from your score for that room (but you still get a minimum of 1 point.)

Maurog
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Hmm, that can work, but will it cumulate? Suppose we are two Optimizers using each other's demos, and we alternate who's on top. Each one downloaded 5 demos of the other, and now one is #1 and the other a tied #1. What's the score?

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Beef Row
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Maurog wrote:
Summing up this and other threads it looks like this:

The main issue seems to be resolving the conflict between the Competitors and the Optimizers without harming the Fun Loving Majority. The obvious solution would be allowing anyone to choose their camp, and then restrict Competitors to only their own demos, Optimizers only to their own and other Optimizers' demos, let the FLM download any and all demos, and make the FLM's demos available to all parties involved.

The one problem I see with this obvious solution is cheating (for example an Optimizer disguising as FLM) but any solution can suffer from that (including the currently employed one).

I see another problem. Quite simply I'm a bit in all three.

I'm not shooting for the top 20, but I have no intention of dropping below the place I am now at #49. And I'm working to improve my average rank while I'm at it. So I'm a bit of a competitor.

Lately I've been avoiding some of the harder holds, and playing through lighter ones, but with an emphasis on getting a decent rank. I don't snipe, but I do read quite a bit of meaning out of the raw scores on the board, as far as which entrance to use, and what needs to be when where. So I'm something of an optimizer.

And in the end, I don't really care if someone takes a number one away from me, I'm just exited to have it at all, and proud of the dozen I do have that will stick. Also if a room seems too painful to optimize, I won't even worry about boosting my personal rank, I'll just let it go and make up for it with a few better rooms. So in that sense, I'm FLM.

If I had to choose, I suppose I'd go with optimizer, but I don't think any is a tight fit and I'm sure I'm not the only one (IE: see Eytanz's comments on seeking to improve number of rooms but mostly ignoring other stats. I think it was number of rooms.. but that seems like an odd focus. Oh well.)

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ErikH2000
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This discussion got complicated fast, and not unnecessarily so, because the thinking involved in coming up with a good solution really is complicated. I've talked to Schik about it a tiny bit, but not to give him advice, because he is much deeper into it than me or anybody else. The scoring system is really his baby. I trust him to listen, analyze, and at the least make a reasonable improvement. It's really up to him how the scoring system changes.

So when Schik rolls out some new changes, feel free to criticize, but please also be openminded and careful that comments you make are helpful.

-Erik

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Schik
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It is very complicated. My camp thinks that an independently created demo deserves more credit than a "group" demo. Especially when not everyone in that group are willing members. Maurog's camp thinks that if you have to kill a hobo or two to get a #1, that's okay.

*sigh*. Okay, I'm not good at this whole impartial thing. Maurog's camp strives to make the community better by collaborating to create the finest set of demos possible, using any means necessary. Better?

Larry's camp doesn't care who gets that #1, but they want to be able to watch it whenever they want.

Erik politely bows out of the discussion so that people yell at me instead of him.

I'm reasonably certain that I would like the existing highscores to stress individual accomplishment. This is currently accomplished by, as you all know, the week delay for potential snipers. I also would like the highscores to promote learning and sharing, which it does by unlimited access to downloading others' demos. I'm open to tweaking the current implementation, but I don't see my view on the overall goal of highscores changing.

A couple thoughts. Feel free to criticize the heck out of them, as I'm not sure if I like one, the other, or both:
- Sniped scores not only get +1 week'd, I also track which ones they are. I think I could make it so that users could choose which way to see the scores - as they currently are, or as if the new rules never happened.
- I really liked the "Optimize This!" concept when it started, but it died out pretty quickly. I was wondering if people would like it if there was a regular, automated "Optimize This!" feature? It would stress collaboration. I'm not 100% sure how to handle this, if we would just have some people to pick a pool of existing rooms that have room to be optimized, or if we have some talented architects make a bunch of rooms that could be released one at a time so we start fresh, or ...?


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Stephen4Louise
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I keep changing my mind about which solution I like best. I can't help wanting everything my way.

I like getting a top ten score in every room I play, and that is what I aim for. Usually I will hit this target and move on to the next room. When I don't the layout of the room decides what I do next. If I see a way to improve my score, I will have another run through to improve. If it is obvious that I missed a trick somewhere and I can't see it, I will download a demo, watch it with the right arrow held down and then have another run through. Sometimes the room isn't worth replaying, whatever my score. When I get a score, I don't want to have to wait a week to see if it counts, so since the change, I have only downloaded a single demo (and regretted it).

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of people downloading a demo and copying move for move to get a #1 tie. The current solution certainly discourages this, but can't stop it. A tie is a tie whatever date it is submitted.

I have a couple of few problems with the current system...
If someone does copy a solution to a room and improve by 1 or 2 moves, how can we tell without penalising ourselves? This isn't a huge issue, but worth pointing out.
A determined demo copier can continue as if nothing changed and continue their way up the high score table with #1 ties. Maybe the spider could check for identical demos in it's spare time.
I don't want to be scared to download a demo. At the minute I feel like I have lost a feature of caravelnet. I know it's still there, but not much use if I don't use it.

I don't like the idea of two high score tables. But out of interest, is there much difference in scores between them?

I do like the idea an organised Optimise This! I don't see anything wrong with the way it used to be. After the first room is done, the current high score holder suggests the next room (preferrably one they already hold the #1 for). To make it fully collaborative, high scores should be disabled for that room. If someone doesn't want to lose the 17 points, they can pass to someone else. I wouldn't mind giving up some points to see the idea take off.

Keep up the good work Schik.

Steve.

Tahnan
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The obvious solution, to me, is to delete every demo currently on CaravelNet, make everyone re-solve all the holds, and let the chips fall where they may. It'll be more fair to newcomers who never had a chance to get the #1's on older holds; most people will be too busy to snipe; and the one-week delay will prevent those who try.

I'm still not 100% convinced that this isn't a tempest in a teapot; that when michthro claims:

michthro claims:
The problem is those who only snipe, and never take their turn at finding new branches.

we're talking about an actual issue here. I believe Schik when he says that sniping exists; I'm not sure I believe that it's rampant.

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 02-28-2007 03:37 PM]

Schik
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Stephen4Louise wrote:
If someone does copy a solution to a room and improve by 1 or 2 moves, how can we tell without penalising ourselves? This isn't a huge issue, but worth pointing out.

Currently you can't. I've got the data stored, however, and at some point will try to figure out a good way to make it public.

I don't like the idea of two high score tables. But out of interest, is there much difference in scores between them?

I'm not sure if I like it either. It would take a fair amount of time to get it to work, so I'm not going to do it unless there's a fairly positive reaction to the idea. Then we can all sit back and laugh that there was so much fighting over this, and it ended up in like a 42 point difference overall.

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Schik
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Tahnan wrote:
The obvious solution, to me, is to delete every demo currently on CaravelNet, make everyone re-solve all the holds, and let the chips fall where they may. It'll be more fair to newcomers who never had a chance to get the #1's on older holds; most people will be too busy to snipe; and the one-week delay will prevent those who try.

I can't tell if you're being serious here. People would do another mass upload of all their scores, and any previous #1 ties would go to whoever was quickest to upload them. And those who aren't active in highscores any more would just be thrown away? That seems very harsh. I hope this was sarcasm.

I'm still not 100% convinced that this isn't a tempest in a teapot; ... I believe Schik when he says that sniping exists; I'm not sure I believe that it's rampant.

If it's not rampant, then this change really won't affect anyone all that much. Right?

It's too bad I didn't store the detailed data I'm storing now for a while before the change was made. I'd be very curious to see if the amount of snipe *attempts* went down (just attempts, not counting if a snipe didn't work because of the new rules). It would be interesting either way, if it went down or stayed the same. Well, or if it increased, but I wouldn't think that would be related.


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jbluestein
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Schik wrote:
- I really liked the "Optimize This!" concept when it started, but it died out pretty quickly. I was wondering if people would like it if there was a regular, automated "Optimize This!" feature? It would stress collaboration. I'm not 100% sure how to handle this, if we would just have some people to pick a pool of existing rooms that have room to be optimized, or if we have some talented architects make a bunch of rooms that could be released one at a time so we start fresh, or ...?

Anything that involves getting talented architects to provide new rooms gets my vote. But it's probably more likely that people will start on existing rooms.

I would even participate, even though I'm not an optimizer.

Josh

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zex20913
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Can we see this data in some form? Either the new or the old?

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Schik
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Maurog wrote:
The CaravelNet community is split into three major camps - the Fun Loving Majority, the Competitors and the Optimizers. The Fun Lovin Majority is the largest group by far. These are the wonderful people who play the game for fun, being the core of the community. The only reason they weren't heard much in the threads is because the changes don't really affect them. The Competitors are the first minority, and they believe in personal achievement only. The Optimizers are the second minority and just want to optimize everything. They believe that anything that gets the room closer to optimization should get rewarded.

This confused me for a while. I would have named the two minorities exactly opposite, I think. I would call the group who will go to any extents to tie or beat a #1 the Competitors, and the group who want to do the optimization themselves the Optimizers. I think I'll stick to calling them the Schik, Maurog, and LarryMurk groups to avoid confusion.

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Schik
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zex20913 wrote:
Can we see this data in some form? Either the new or the old?

Schik wrote:
Currently you can't. I've got the data stored, however, and at some point will try to figure out a good way to make it public.

So... yeah, it's on my to-do list. I'm not sure how or where to put it. I don't know if sniped scores should just get an * next to them, or if we need a full page for sniping stats or what. I'm busy with some TCB tasks too, so this might have to wait a little bit.

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Blondbeard
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You know... A fun fact I have always wanted to have is who it is that downloads my demos Maybe there could be a page on highscores with information about "My demos that has been downloaded".

eytanz
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Blondbeard wrote:
You know... A fun fact I have always wanted to have is who it is that downloads my demos Maybe there could be a page on highscores with information about "My demos that has been downloaded".

Now that is a very good idea.

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