zex20913
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I wouldn't like that. It gives far too much of a benefit to the player who first goes through a hold. Even though I've done this, I'd feel really bad (and tempted) to take advantage of such a situation.

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mrimer
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coppro wrote:
I've an idea: What if you could make it so that after your highscore is beaten, you have a certain amount of time during which you can reclaim your number one spot, if you do it without downloading any demo which beat you? Maybe only a day or two, because a week would get abusive.

I'm not clear what you mean here. Everyone already has unlimited time to reclaim their spot whenever it's beaten, don't they?

coppro
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What I mean was that if I'm at #1, and then person A comes along and steals my #1, then I have a certain amount of time to reclaim and tie it, assuming I don't download that demo. Maybe only if the demo is beaten by a small number of moves (maybe 1/80 of the demo's total length, or something).

eytanz
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I think Coppro's point is that the #1 owner has a grace period in which, if his #1 is beaten, and he ties the new score, he gets to keep the #1 slot instead of a #1 tie.

I don't like this idea, for the reason given by Zex. Honestly, I think all of the "solutions" so far, including the one Schik implemented, are just making things worse, rather than better, as far as the high-scores are concerned.

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Tahnan
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You know, there's something that strikes me about this discussion: it rather fetishizes #1s. (Not in the sexual sense; in the sense of "an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion" [Merriam-Webster].)

Which is to say: if I download michthro's #1 demo, copy it move-for-move except that I avoid hitting a wall at one point, and thereby get a #1 score, that's bad. If I download michtro's #1 demo, copy it move-for-move, and thereby get a #2 score, that's perfectly fine, or at least doesn't need to be punished in any way.

In the latter case, I haven't taken any points away from michthro, I suppose. (I have taken points away from everyone else, if I was the first person to notice his #1 and tie it; but they can gain them back by, well, doing the same thing.) But there are two issues being hotly debated here, I think: first, is it fair for michthro or whoever to lose that #1 spot? and second, is it fair for me to have it?

I guess I don't see a huge distinction between copying someone's demo for a #1 spot and copying someone's demo for a #2 spot. Maybe it's because, as an academic, I don't really care who got where first or who's Right and Wrong, I just care that everyone did their own work to get there.

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Incidentally, I'd like to bemusedly observe the irony that, if you want to be able to rate demos--because, e.g., you want to give negative points to a demo that sniped someone--you have to be able to download them to view them, and that makes you a potential sniper.

Beef Row
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Tahnan wrote:
You know, there's something that strikes me about this discussion: it rather fetishizes #1s. (Not in the sexual sense; in the sense of "an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion" [Merriam-Webster].)

I think the reason for this is that being first to get a number one gives you extra points, whereas for any other score, it doesn't matter whether you got that score first, third, or thirty-third. So from a strictly score based perspective, sniping a number one can give you a permanent edge (if your improved solution is truly optimal), whereas any other sniping is tieable at any time.

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silver
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After some consideration, treating #1 as special seems not only to be an error, but a complication.

Option F: if you download any demo for a room, then for the next week, any demo you submit for that room is post-dated one week.

it's simple to explain and make no special exemptions leading to the oddity of the #1 person getting to copy improvements from other demos.


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Tahnan
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Beef Row wrote:
So from a strictly score based perspective, sniping a number one can give you a permanent edge (if your improved solution is truly optimal), whereas any other sniping is tieable at any time.

Yes, but again, if you're trying to avoid sniping because it's unethical to take someone else's ideas as your own--which is another reason that seems to have come up here--then don't allow downloading demos at all, is what I'm saying.

noma
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Tahnan wrote:
...then don't allow downloading demos at all, is what I'm saying.

Good point! Really, except for having learned some new tricks that have helped me in beating other rooms, I wouldn't miss them. Hmm... idea. Perhaps those who aren't really into the score aspect could have a checkbox on the demo screen: "Allow others to access my demos". That way future delvers can still learn techniques that can help them improve their game. That's what I feel the demos should really be used for anyhow and it's also in the spirit of this forum.

Edit: Perhaps instead of an "opt-in" choice, it could be an opt-out choice. In other words, the default would be to share demos. To keep your demos private, you'd have to choose that in your settings. A caveat could be that if you opt-out, you yourself cannot have access to the shared demos. It would be a permanent choice on a hold by hold basis (though perhaps the programming for that would be too complicated) but it does not have to be made at the start of the hold. However any demos recorded before choosing to opt-out would stay available for download.

I think this way everyone gets have their cake, if not eat it. The so-called snipers can still have access to many demos from which they can pull ideas and patterns. Those who are serious about playing a room on their own merit can put their money where their mouths are and choose not to view other demos themselves.

There have been so many posts in this thread, my apologies if someone else has suggested this already, but I think it might be worth considering.

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[Last edited by noma at 02-27-2007 08:53 AM]

AlefBet
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You know, after reading BDR's experience in this thread, it seems clear to me that a system that penalizes demo downloading only if you don't have a matching/better demo will strongly favor the incumbents, and not in a way that rewards originality. I hadn't really thought along these lines before reading that posting, but after reading about that experience (which seems to me to have several things that I expect commonly happen), I think if non-penalized downloads are allowed at all, it will allow the haves to snipe the ideas of the have-nots. So I think the option categories we have are:

1) Penalize downloading a "better" demo, but not a "worse" one, and live with the fact that it stacks the deck against newcomers, even newcomers with good ideas. (I don't like this idea, because the system is already stacked against newcomers -- a truly optimal #1 can't be unseated.)

2) Penalize all demo downloads, both better and worse. (I don't like this idea either, because having demos available is a cool CaravelNet value add, and so is participating in the scoring system, so I'd rather not force people to choose one aspect of CaravelNet or the other.)

3) Don't penalize any demo downloads, and live with sniping. (Some people seem pretty dead set against this one, with rather strong opinions on the subject, so I don't see it being agreed upon anytime soon.)

None of these seems that exciting to me. Of the ideas suggested, I still like the original concept of making new demos unavailable for a day or two. (Broadly this would fall under option 2, in that some demo downloads would not only be penalized, they'd be impossible, for a short time. But it still looks to me like the best balance.) It allows a delver who is worried about being sniped to iron out any obvious flaws in his solution, even if getting the #1 caught him by surprise in the first place. As for ironing out unobvious flaws, well, I say if they require creative thought to find, then they are and ought to be up for grabs by the creative delver.

Edit: This is apparently my post #1337, so you know it's got to be good.

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[Last edited by AlefBet at 02-27-2007 09:16 AM]

KevG
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Tahnan wrote:
Yes, but again, if you're trying to avoid sniping because it's unethical to take someone else's ideas as your own--which is another reason that seems to have come up here--then don't allow downloading demos at all, is what I'm saying.

The downside/upside of our demo system is that people are going to be able to incorporate other people's ideas into their own demos. I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense to say some demos are off-limits, but you can borrow at will from others. There are plenty of times where I've taken #1 and then completely redid my solution because watching the #2 demo showed me a better way.

The vast majority of the anti-sniping campaign is based on the straw-man argument that people watching #1 demos are then copying those demos move for move and fixing small flaws to steal top scores. Obviously this would be wrong; it's plagiarism. However, I can only think of one instance where this might have happened to me. 30 people felt it was O.K. to download a #1 demo before beating it. Is it really likely that all 30 of those people did so in order to simpy copy that demo?

Looking at other demos is simply part of my playing style. Sometimes they're of no help. Sometimes the only help they provide is showing that I'm on a different path than everyone else. Sometimes I get an idea I can incorporate into my demos. If I use someone else's idea and implement it better then I wind up with #1; once I've submitted a demo, all my ideas on the room are similarly up for grabs. But, I don't copy demos. If a method is too complicated to duplicate without copying I simply don't use it.

This new restriction on demos isn't going to overly affect me. I can live with it; although it is annoying to have to change my playing style. However, I think it's going to cause problems and introduces all sorts of contradictions.

The restriction only applies to demos you download yourself. An unethical player who wants to aggresively defend his #1s can have another player E-mail him any demos that beat his. But, you say, we don't have any unethical players like that? Then why are we assuming we have a rash of unethical players who are stealing #1s by copying them move by move.

Blondbeard
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I just realized that I think that a player should be able to choose if his demos should be public or not. I think most of us would choose to keep our demos public. If you choose to keep a demo private you shouldn't be able to download a demo from that room. As soon as you do that your own demos for that room (present and future) gets public.

I don't do sniping, but I still like the thought of others downloading my demos, and I like being able to download demos to check out ideas (I just rarely do, and I don't play the room afterwords). To have your demos public would off course be the default option. This way those who don't do sniping, and don't like to be sniped can avoid all of that.

Maurog
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I would choose to keep all my demos public, but I think that's a very good idea.

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michthro
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Good idea. I think I'd go for private.

Stephen4Louise
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Blondbeard wrote:
I just realized that I think that a player should be able to choose if his demos should be public or not. I think most of us would choose to keep our demos public. If you choose to keep a demo private you shouldn't be able to download a demo from that room. As soon as you do that your own demos for that room (present and future) gets public.

Are you talking about a profile option to set all demos to private, or an individual room by room option?
I think a profile option will be best. As long as the exclusion you mention is included. I would opt for public and like the idea. Those who don't want their work to be copied, can relax, but those who don't mind can play as if this discussion never took place.
I don't really see a downside to this.

Steve.

Blondbeard
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Stephen4Louise wrote:

Are you talking about a profile option to set all demos to private, or an individual room by room option?
I think a profile option will be best. As long as the exclusion you mention is included. I would opt for public and like the idea. Those who don't want their work to be copied, can relax, but those who don't mind can play as if this discussion never took place.
I don't really see a downside to this.

Steve.

Yes, I too think that a profile option would be best and easiest. (With the exclusion that if a player that has marked his demos as private downloads a demo all his demos for that room becomes public).

Syntax
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Yeah I think that's an excellent idea.

Schik
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What about the larrymurk camp which will be unhappy that it can't download any and all demos at any time? This change would make it better and worse than the original 1 week delay - there will be no delay for some demos, but infinite delay for others.

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eytanz
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I don't like this idea. It again penalizes most the people who have no intention to compete for a #1 score but want to look and see what it looks like. This is because most of the people who will mark their scores as private will be the more competitive people, who get the #1s.

Whatever the flaws of the current system, it aims to address the needs of the competitors without hurting the spectators. I think that's a principle that should be observed.

Edit: post bump with Schik, who raises much of the same point.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 02-27-2007 05:40 PM]

KevG
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I like Blondbeard's suggestion. It's clear that there are two very different camps in regards to what constitutes fair use of demos. It's similar to Schik's idea, but making demos public seems like a more natural penalty than post-dating them a week. Obviously, based on my other posts on the subject, my demos would be public.

Edit: Didn't see Schik's post. He's right. While I'd be perfectly happy not to see all the demos, most CaravelNet players probably would not.

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[Last edited by KevG at 02-27-2007 05:55 PM]

Blondbeard
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eytanz wrote:
I don't like this idea. It again penalizes most the people who have no intention to compete for a #1 score but want to look and see what it looks like. This is because most of the people who will mark their scores as private will be the more competitive people, who get the #1s.

Whatever the flaws of the current system, it aims to address the needs of the competitors without hurting the spectators. I think that's a principle that should be observed.

Edit: post bump with Schik, who raises much of the same point.

You could of course have a third category: non-competative, in which case you can download all demos

kzc
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Schik wrote:
What about the larrymurk camp which will be unhappy that it can't download any and all demos at any time? This change would make it better and worse than the original 1 week delay - there will be no delay for some demos, but infinite delay for others.

Well, I guess I'm in that camp, but Blondbeard's suggestion wouldn't bother me that much. I tend to think of demos as the property of the player that created them, so if that player wants them private I have no standing to object. I (mildly) objected to the blanket one-week delay because it was imposed indiscriminately from the top down.

eytanz
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The problems with a "non-competitive" class have already been discussed - if this decision is irreversible, it is bad, because someone might well decide to become competitive. If it is reversible, it either reintroduces the problem, or adds a lot of complexity.

And there's also another factor - some people, such as myself, may choose to be competitive on one variable while non-competitive on another. I don't care about #1 scores, but I want my overall number of scores recorded. Why should I be forced to no longer download demos?

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Blondbeard
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That wouldn't be the case. The only people you wouldn't be able to download demos from would be those who choose to set their demos as private. I think that group of people is in minority, even among the optimisers (I might be srong, though).

jbluestein
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Maybe we can just give the snipers the title 'Snipemaster' and let the mod system sort it out.

Josh

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eytanz
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Blondbeard wrote:
That wouldn't be the case. The only people you wouldn't be able to download demos from would be those who choose to set their demos as private. I think that group of people is in minority, even among the optimisers (I might be srong, though).

I don't think it matters how many people choose to make their demos private. It is enough, if, say, only Michthro or Syntax do (both likely scenarios based on their own postings above), and already you lock out a substantial portion of the top scores from viewing.

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BDR
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jbluestein wrote:
Maybe we can just give the snipers the title 'Snipemaster' and let the mod system sort it out.

Josh

The success of that solution depends entirely upon who is defining people as 'Snipemasters'. Since the normal folks don't really have the necessary data available to make a good judgement on who is sniping and who is not, if the info isn't made available this will be an inherently flawed solution.

Blondbeard
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eytanz wrote:

I don't think it matters how many people choose to make their demos private. It is enough, if, say, only Michthro or Syntax do (both likely scenarios based on their own postings above), and already you lock out a substantial portion of the top scores from viewing.

Alright How about if you could download every demo, BUT: if you download a demo marked as private you will give up your right to improve your highscore for that particular room. Sure, you can watch michtros demos, but if you do, you may no longer improve your own higscore for that room. If you watch a public demo you may of course continue to improve your highscore for that room. If you where to download a private demo you could get some kind of warning message telling you that you are about to give up your right to compete for that room in the future(although you still will keep your previous highscore).

By the way: I think it's slightly odd that you should have a right to watch a demo if the demos author don't want anyone to watch it.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 02-27-2007 06:46 PM]

Syntax
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For the record, I would certainly leave my demos as public (though I understand that based on what I said this may not be obvious). I just like the idea as it offers choice to players who play differently from me. I enjoy watching demos and trying to improve on them. That's my style of play. If there's now a term for that and it's frowned upon, then so be it. The day I cannot play DROD the way I enjoy, that's the day I stop playing. Meanwhile, I'm all for ideas which allow people to play their own way.

Stephen4Louise
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Schik wrote:
What about the larrymurk camp which will be unhappy that it can't download any and all demos at any time? This change would make it better and worse than the original 1 week delay - there will be no delay for some demos, but infinite delay for others.

How about an exclusion where architects can always view all demos for their own holds? Anyone else wishing to view a private demo only has to ask, the demo owner only has to download a demo for the particular room to make it public. Or they can always email it if they want to maintain their privacy.

Steve.