coppro
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Some people look down on Gamemaker because of it's simple interface and lack of power. Having used it myself, I understand. But that doesn't make it something easy to do. I congratulate you for designing this type of game, no matter how. If Gamemaker works for you, so much the better.

DGM
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coppro wrote:
Some people look down on Gamemaker because of it's simple interface and lack of power. Having used it myself, I understand. But that doesn't make it something easy to do. I congratulate you for designing this type of game, no matter how. If Gamemaker works for you, so much the better.

To be honest, there are aspects in which it doesn't work for me. There are some timing issues with room changes. Worse is that there's no event for re-entering a permanent room, forcing me to resort to what I call "Rube Goldberg Code" to get the result panel to update properly. I suspect the combination of these two are the cause of the unrepeatable bugs Doom reported.

That said, though, GM is a great tool for the price. If The Dungeon is a commercial success then I'm sure I'll want to invest money in a more powerful IDE later (or invest time in writing everything in Python or something), but for right now me and my shoestring budget are grateful that GM is around.

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Maurog
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Hey, I've checked out Gamemaker before and it looked pretty powerful to me. I even considered making something DROD-like with it, because it really loves the grid.

DGM wrote:
P.S. Are you the same Maurog from the Order of the Stick forums?

Having the same bloody avatar kinda gives it away, does it?

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Blondbeard
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Something which could be a nice feeling for many players would be to add a slight RPG element of experience points, and when you go up a level your offense and defense stats increase. This could be made into a very light touch which hardly affects the decisions you have to make, but I like the feeling of having a little experience bar which moves slowly when I kill monsters.

Otherwise I like the sound of this project, and I think your sugested system of offense/defense seems great. It never felt right with defense scores where either you can't harm a monster or the monster can't harm you, no matter how many lifes you/it have.

zex20913
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Another suggestion to go off of Blondbeard's: Have experience, and have somebody you can trade it to for a choice of Enchant scrolls.

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DGM
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Maurog wrote:
Hey, I've checked out Gamemaker before and it looked pretty powerful to me. I even considered making something DROD-like with it, because it really loves the grid.

I actually started making a game with GM once that used a hex grid, and managed to implement that part successfully. Sadly, I lost it in a computer crash.

Having the same bloody avatar kinda gives it away, does it?

Well, it occured to me that "MAUROG" might refer to a game/movie/comic/whatever that had that image associated with it, and I had run into two different fans. You never know these days.

But yes, it's a pretty distinctive avatar. Where is it from?

____________________________
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[Last edited by DGM at 02-03-2007 12:59 PM]

DGM
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Blondbeard wrote:
Something which could be a nice feeling for many players would be to add a slight RPG element of experience points,

Given the flexibility of the systems I already have planned, there's no need for me to add anything for this. The DM has 29 free stats to use as he pleases and obstacles can give up to two different ones when you loot them. So if the DM wants to devote a stat to XP and have corpses give that instead of (or even alongside) money, he can.

Otherwise I like the sound of this project, and I think your sugested system of offense/defense seems great. It never felt right with defense scores where either you can't harm a monster or the monster can't harm you, no matter how many lifes you/it have.

Again, TOTS-style defense will be in as a reserved stat, but the DM isn't obligated to use it. So I'm sure you'll see it both ways.

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Maurog
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It's not from anywhere, just my own design. And I sure hope there aren't any fans running around...

Hex grid is nice. I have a game idea which involves a hex grid and using very simple components to get complex gameplay. It's never ever gonna get made though, what with me being extremely lazy and having no spare time. And it's too complicated for Game Maker anyway.

____________________________
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BeefontheBone
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OT: The OoTS forums scare me rather a lot - when there are enough munchkins about to get excited about posting on like page 4 of a thread, you know something's up. I much prefer smaller forums like this one - recognising just about everyone who posts and remembering a few details about them (like elfstone's limited knowledge of how her mac works, but willingness to accept help from people who know better instead of moaning about how tricky it was to restore her progress), various people's passion for maths and programming (I really need to learn more than the basics of BASIC from when I used my dad's ZX28k to try and write a maze-y avoiding obstacles game involving a frog some time), Neil and Briaeros' quirky post signoffs and so on. Plus I can reasonably expect most posts to be longer than the signatures following them rather than the other way around. A forum where we can have a lengthy discussion about, say, the bizarre topology of the Eighth with enough maths in it to get beyond me (didn't take any topology at uni, wish I had now ) can't be bad

Sorry, longer than intended...

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Beef Row wrote: Actually, it doesn't really matter because the soap is a lye.

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[Last edited by BeefontheBone at 02-03-2007 07:11 PM]

Maurog
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Oh, I'm not really on the OoTS forums. I'm on Erfworld forums, which happen to be a subset of OoTS forums, but a lot smaller since Erfworld is pretty new. If it ever becomes as crowded as the main OoTS board, I will consider leaving it.

____________________________
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BeefontheBone
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See, the Erfworld bit I can cope with - fewer idiots, and people having sensible discussions about items of DIY harware and the beautiful art.

Gah, off-topic again. Sorry.

____________________________
Braindead's Mordor Site - Dungeon crawling having nothing whatsoever to do with LotR. Plus a freeware remake in-progress, featuring descriptive text written by yours truly!

Beef Row wrote: Actually, it doesn't really matter because the soap is a lye.

DGM
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BeefontheBone wrote:
Gah, off-topic again. Sorry.

Don't sweat it. Somehow, I think the thread will recover.

Regardless of what you think about the OOTS forum, though, the comic itself has been superb lately. And I'll admit to wondering what's going to happen in Erfworld too, when Ansom comes up against the "no-one" that Stanley has left to command his forces.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-03-2007 10:08 PM]

DGM
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Okay, now that I've recovered from bribing a vampire today (well, actually just donating a pint of blood), it's time to address a few issues.


DEMO/FULL VERSION SETUP

As much as I want to give everybody a great gaming experience, I also need them to actually pay me for it if I'm going to turn this into a business. Here's the setup I'm considering: the demo will be able to run 15 levels (chosen by the DM) of any dungeon. Only the full version can play the rest. This way, every dungeon made larger than 15 levels becomes an incentive to buy.

As for getting the full version, having a $19.95 pay version is obvious. However, I thought of something else that would allow me to deal with people who can't (or won't) pay: adware. I was thinking of having a free adware-using version of the full game. This would be available in addition to the pay version, not instead of it. So those who dislike adware have another option.

I admit I know very little about adware, though, and whether this can be done in a way that's both safe for the users and profitable for me. So I wanted to ask for opinions on this as well as on the 15-level limit for the demo.


FILE FORMATS AND MAC/LINUX/WHATEVER VERSIONS

I need to decide soon what file formats to store the graphics, sound and dungeon information in. Since I've already had a request for a Mac version, I figure it would be wise to keep my options open by picking formats which all operating systems can use. So for those of you who've done cross-platform work before, I'm asking for advice. Are certain file types well-suited for this job, such that I could write mac/linux versions later that use the same dungeons?

For that matter, is there any game-making IDE or programming language I could use which would automatically handle mac and/or linux platforms without my needing to actually own (and test on) those platforms? I know Java aims for this, but I've heard that its "write once, run everywhere" schtick actually works more like "write once, debug everywhere."


SHAMELESS BRIBERY

Being a one-man operation, trying to do everything myself will result in the final product taking much longer to come about and being of lower quality when it does. And being on a shoestring budget, I can't just hire the help I need.

But what I can do is offer free copies of the full game (the ad-free pay version, if I end up doing an adware version) to those who make significant contributions to creating it. There are various ways you can help, if you have the right skill-set. The two main kinds of help I forsee the need for are sprite work and dungeon-making.


..SPRITE WORK

While the public domain graphics I'm currently using are fine for a free alpha demo, I expect a commercial version will need a bit more polish. And not only could I use a much better swords-and-sorcery tile set, but having graphics for other genres - modern, sci-fi, wild west, cyberspace, etc. - will greatly increase the storytelling potential of DMs.

So if you're a skilled sprite artist and are willing to make a tile set for one genre (your choice, unless I get multiple offers for the same genre), I'd be willing to show my gratitude in the form of a free copy.

Check out David Gervais' tile set:
http://pousse.rapiere.free.fr/tome/tiles/AngbandTk/tome-angbandtktiles.htm

These are the tiles I originally wanted to use and which I developed the demo with. This is the minimum level of quality I'm looking for. If you're willing and able, please PM me and be prepared to show examples (32*32 and 16*16 sprites) of your work in the genres you're interested in doing.


..DUNGEON MAKING

While I expect the users to eventually build many dungeons once the editor is released, having a stock of quality dungeons ready to go from the start would be a big draw. But I can't work on the engine and editor and make dungeons at the same time.

So if you're a DROD architect in good standing and are willing to commit to giving me a certain minimum number of levels (ballpark figure: 100) during the beta, I'm willing to give you a free copy. The details are up to you: one giant dungeon vs. several smaller ones, easy vs. hard, story-oriented vs. puzzle-oriented... Whatever your specialty is. All I ask is that they be quality gaming, not just something you threw together while testing how the game/editor works.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-04-2007 05:01 AM]

NiroZ
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Hmm, if your thinking of making an ad-ware version, I suggest you check out this thread. Your circumstances differ slightly, but it might help in your decision.

Blondbeard
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This is a guess, but I think it might actually be a better idea to sell the game for 10$. I think you might get a lot more buyers that way, because ten dollars seems so very cheap for a game that you can buy it more on a whim.

Syntax
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Nothing much to add but I agree with Blondbeard.

Also, 100 levels may be a bit much to ask for. That's like asking for a 10 level DROD hold...

Fafnir
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My personal view on adware is one of blind loathing - I absolutely will not, under any circumstances, install anything that displays advertisements on my computer. There are lots of others who feel the same way.

That said, there are probably quite a few people prepared to put up with it as well, many of whom would not otherwise buy the game.

So if you decide to go down the adware route, you need to try to grab the people who don't mind it while not driving away the people who do. So, a few key rules would probably be:

1. As you say, make it optional. Provide a demo without adware, a registered version without adware and a free registered version with adware. Whatever you do, don't put adware in the demo or people will be put off trying the game.

2. Make absolutely positively one hundred percent certain that people who download the free registered version know they're getting adware. That means a huge blinking message on the downloads page, and "THIS SOFTWARE CONTAINS ADWARE" repeated several times at the top of the EULA for people who get the game from Tucows or P2P programs. Otherwise, even though that's not your actual intention, you'll get accused of entrapment and quite a lot of people will boycott the game - and most of them will probably be from the demographic that would otherwise be quite interested.

3. Test the uninstallation mechanism very thoroughly. If someone uninstalls the game, but that doesn't fully remove the adware, then their life is going to be made miserable for no good reason.

4. This is more of an implementation tip - make sure the Gamemaker installation program can handle adware. And by that I mean not only can it handle calling the adware installation software, but that it's difficult to crack the installer to prevent the adware from being installed.

As for cross-platform development, I can't be that much help except to throw a few languages out there. Visual Basic is Windows only, as is Gamemaker. C and C++ at least have compilers for all the major operating systems, but the code tends to be very non-portable, because you need to work with every operating system you code for on quite a low level - which makes GUIs painful AFAIK (I've only had direct experience with MFC). C# apparently suffers from similar problems.

LISP is portable, insanely good, and insanely powerful, but it's a declarative functional language. That basically means you'd have to learn a whole new way of programming (as well as the language), which a lot of highly experienced programmers don't "get". Give it a look, maybe, but don't worry if you hate it.

Python is an incredible language, and it has a working write once run anywhere graphics library (tkinter), but unfortunately it's not very powerful and you may find it's a little constraining (since you've got a fairly unique interface). If someone with a little more Python experience could speak up, that would be great - if tkinter's powerful enough for the job (which it could well be), I'd highly recommend it. Python is probably the best language out there for someone coming from Gamemaker, too - you don't have to worry about typing or garbage collection, it's got extensive libraries prebuilt and it's got some extremely useful features built into the language.

If not, then I think your best bet's probably Java. It may be write once, debug everywhere but that's still better than write once, rewrite everywhere.

____________________________
Stupidity kills.
Absolute stupidity
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DGM
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Blondbeard wrote:
This is a guess, but I think it might actually be a better idea to sell the game for 10$. I think you might get a lot more buyers that way, because ten dollars seems so very cheap for a game that you can buy it more on a whim.

Actually, I've heard that undercharging can be as big a mistake as overcharging. Too low a price-tag, and people will wonder why you think so little of your own product. After all, nobody goes to the dollar store expecting to find top-of-the-line goods.

$19.95 is the standard for shareware.

____________________________
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DGM
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Syntax wrote:
Also, 100 levels may be a bit much to ask for. That's like asking for a 10 level DROD hold...

1) As I said, 100 is a ballpark figure. A nice, round number I threw out as a starting point. I can be talked down a little.

2) I think your DROD comparison is a little unfair. One DROD room is bigger than six Dungeon levels.

Granted, The Dungeon is more complex in other ways, but I still think a 5-level hold is closer to the mark than 10.

3) Keep in mind that this offer targets people who make a lot of DROD levels, and who likely only want to get into The Dungeon to make a lot of Dungeon levels as well. I figure the people who take this offer were going to make at least half that many levels on their own anyway.

____________________________
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DGM
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Fafnir wrote:

1. As you say, make it optional. Provide a demo without adware, a registered version without adware and a free registered version with adware. Whatever you do, don't put adware in the demo or people will be put off trying the game.

2. Make absolutely positively one hundred percent certain that people who download the free registered version know they're getting adware.

Oh, yes. One of the things I had planned was to only allow the demo to be distributed (even though the ad version would be free) so that people know what's up before they're ever even exposed to the adware version.

In fact, I can probably do one better and make the adware version available only as an upgrade to the demo, so that people can't end up with the adware version by accident.

3. Test the uninstallation mechanism very thoroughly. If someone uninstalls the game, but that doesn't fully remove the adware, then their life is going to be made miserable for no good reason.

I would only do this if I could find an adware method that was very well behaved.

LISP is portable, insanely good, and insanely powerful, but it's a declarative functional language. That basically means you'd have to learn a whole new way of programming (as well as the language), which a lot of highly experienced programmers don't "get".

<shrug>
I may not be so hot in the sprite art department, but programming is what I'm good at.

Python is an incredible language, and it has a working write once run anywhere graphics library (tkinter), but unfortunately it's not very powerful and you may find it's a little constraining (since you've got a fairly unique interface).

Again... <shrug>

So was GM. I still made it work for me. Like I said, this is what I'm good at.

If not, then I think your best bet's probably Java. It may be write once, debug everywhere but that's still better than write once, rewrite everywhere.

If using Java means I'll need to have the other platforms available to test on, then Java is effectively out of my price range even if the language itself is free.

Python is much more interesting, if it really does work everywhere. I tried it once, briefly, and liked the way it makes use of indentation.

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Citrus
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I'd help make dungeons. I haven't gotten a published hold out yet, but I'd bet I could make something decent.

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DGM
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Ezlo wrote:
I'd help make dungeons. I haven't gotten a published hold out yet, but I'd bet I could make something decent.

I appreciate it. I should clarify this, though: while anyone who wants to is free to make dungeons, the free copy offer is only open to those with a track record demonstrating that they can and will actually deliver the goods. So, already having produced and supported some game content (like DROD holds) is essential.

That said, the beta is at least a few months away. So if you're serious about it and don't yet have such a track record, there's still time to prove yourself. Make that DROD hold you've always wanted to.

Also, while I'm clarifying things, those of you interested in doing sprite art for a free copy have more options than just doing a specific genre. For example, for sprites of people I'm interested in basic bodies with an array of clothing, weapons, etc. that can easily be spliced on to them, allowing a wide array of images to be created from fewer components. If you offered a sufficiently large sprite set that only dealt with people, I wouldn't also expect you to do a bunch of monsters, items, etc. on top of that. You'd have earned your copy.

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Blondbeard
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Check this thread out. Ezlo can be quite serious. Acording to what he said he is waiting for TCB to come out before compleating this hold. I haven't played it myself, but I know that many have appreciated it.

Citrus
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Yeah, my hold isn't going to be done ANYTIME soon. But I actually am working on it right now, not waiting as I said. It's on a beta hold. I currently working on updating my puzzles to be actual better puzzles, and so far it's going well. Maybe I'll update that Architecture thread soon anyway.

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Doom
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I experimented with the stairs more today and found out what triggers the teleport out from the play area.

This works at any stairs that are next to a wall (i.e. practically any stairs)

1. Enter the level choosing menu (with the arrow panels). The character isn't visible at this point.
2. Press space to choose a level and at the exact same time also press an arrow key that points to a wall next to the stairs.
-> What should happen is that you won't appear at all. Moving around, feeling your way with the wall-hitting sounds, it should be possible to navigate your way to the top-right area for further proof of making it outside the level.

DGM
Level: Master Delver
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Doom wrote:
I experimented with the stairs more today and found out what triggers the teleport out from the play area.

This works at any stairs that are next to a wall (i.e. practically any stairs)

Actually all stairs are next to at least two walls, as they're all in corners. This is a holdover from when I thought I might do a random dungeon generator instead of a full, user-available editor.

and at the exact same time also press an arrow key

Ah. Got it. The game's trying to simultaneously execute two unrelated commands involving the same variables (the ones controlling the player's location). I knew it had to involve travelling, but I didn't know exactly how.

What should happen is that you won't appear at all.

When travelling, you're moved just off-screen (upper-left corner) so you don't trigger any collisions while passing through the levels. You're there, just outside of the map and disabled from moving until you exit travel mode.

I'm really glad you found this, Doom. Thanks. When I recode I'll try and make sure the game only takes one instruction per step from the player.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-05-2007 06:25 AM]

Fafnir
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A few useful resources then:

There's a beginner's Python textbook here - it's ostensibly for people who don't know how to program at all, but depending on your learning style you might want to spend a few minutes skimming it to get a feel for the language before moving onto this excellent text for experienced programmers. The main portable graphics library is tkinter, to which you can find useful intros here and here. It's an interpreted language, so if you want people to run it without mucking about with the interpreter you'll need to find a way to stick the interpreter and the program together in a single executable - py2exe does the job nicely for Windows, not sure about Macs, and Linux users will have the interpreter installed anyway.

As for LISP, my experience is actually with Scheme, a minimalistic subset of LISP. The syntax is identical, but the primitives are different. You'd probably be better off with Common LISP, since Scheme was designed as a teaching language rather than a development tool - if you want to start off by learning Scheme anyway though, I'd heartily recommend this book. Otherwise skim this book as an intro, then this one to pick up the advanced techniques. Also, look for an IDE that helps you count brackets or you'll go mad - I'm on Linux, so I can't help you there. (This is, of course, because Linux users are mad already. Rimshot.)

It occurs to me I should probably point out I'm a seventeen year old student who's never ported an application in his life, so take everything I say with a grain of salt!

____________________________
Stupidity kills.
Absolute stupidity
Kills absolutely.

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[Last edited by Fafnir at 02-05-2007 06:53 PM]

DGM
Level: Master Delver
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Fafnir wrote:
I'm on Linux, so I can't help you there. (This is, of course, because Linux users are mad already. Rimshot.)

He'll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen. Try the veal.

So Linux users like you can already play, even with the Game Maker version. Good. That just leaves the mac users to worry about.

It occurs to me I should probably point out I'm a seventeen year old student who's never ported an application in his life, so take everything I say with a grain of salt!

The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to try this. If anything goes wrong on the mac end, I simply have no way to test and fix it. That would mean that the extra weeks it would cost me to NOT use GM would be totally wasted.

I'm thinking the wiser course is to just use GM to produce a windows version ASAP, then - if the profits from windows and linux users are sufficient to allow it - invest in a mac so I can port the game over.

Sorry, mac users. I won't forget about you, I just don't think I can help you right away.

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Citrus
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DGM wrote:
Did you know that you can reach the princess and still be set up to reach the teleport after level 24 changes, without facing ANY of the last 3 bosses (Zeno, Dragon, Magic Master)? You won't actually get to finish the game this way, as the endgame doesn't trigger (floor 24 doesn't change) until you've both reached the princess AND killed the Master. But you can still get the bragging rights.

Okay, I've managed to do the first two challenges, but how in the world do you do this one?

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DGM
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Ezlo wrote:

DGM wrote:
Did you know that you can reach the princess and still be set up to reach the teleport after level 24 changes, without facing ANY of the last 3 bosses (Zeno, Dragon, Magic Master)? You won't actually get to finish the game this way, as the endgame doesn't trigger (floor 24 doesn't change) until you've both reached the princess AND killed the Master. But you can still get the bragging rights.

Okay, I've managed to do the first two challenges, but how in the world do you do this one?

I'll give a minor hint, a major hint and a detailed answer, all secreted for those who want to figure it out on their own:

Minor hint:


Major hint:


Detailed answer:


It is possible to do all of this without getting any Holy or Sacred gear.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-05-2007 11:00 PM]