skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3765
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I don't mind if game developers or other people associated with a game come on the forum and talk about it. Some interesting and valuable conversations can be had that way

^ This has been written by ErikH2000

After reading this, I've come with an idea for this topic, because I'm interested what DROD community can say about this.

So after pointing what I wanted to point, let me begin.

My brother has been making games since about... 2001. I must say, that he is good in this. He is popular over the whole world, his last game Mario Forever has been on download.com top 10 games list. Also on almost every site, which is distributing freeware games he has been on top. You might know him. He is called Buziol, or Buziol Games. He created many games, like Bod Blob, Myster Muszel 1 & 2, and some more, this is not important anyway.

Last time, about half year ago, he decided to remake all his games... Add some levels, details etc. And he added IE Searchbar (toolbar) which must be installed during installation of his games. So you can't play his games without installing the toolbar, and you can't uninstall Toolbar without uninstalling his game. He gets money when somebody uses the searchbar.

So, my question is, what do you think about it? Do you think he is commercializing? Maybe you think this is unfair? Or maybe something else...

Ok. I personally think, that he is not commercializing, also this isn't unfair, and he is not Using anybody to get money. From my point of view, I see guy, who lost Five years for game making. And almost everything he got from this is some minor popularity, satisfaction, this words:
"This game is too easy! Change it!"
"This game is too hard! Change it!"
"Why there is no shooting in your game? F**k YOU!"
"How can I jump over the pit in 1-4 in Mario?"
"Why I can't save game between levels? This game sucks!"
Some Envy... etc.
So, he creates really good games for free. So, he is not taking money from it. He is rather nice and cultutal. And what he have from this? Never ending insulting, complaining, idiotic comments from not-too-intelligent people. He does something good, and he gots something bad... Maybe for balance? Heh...

Well, <Yawns> I'm now wondering what you can say about this? Not that I say he is ideal, or something... No, no, no!

And for thoose who would like to visit his site url=http://www.buziol.pl www.buziol.pl - I don't want to do advertising. :

____________________________
My website

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[Last edited by skell at 03-16-2006 07:30 AM]

larrymurk
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Well, I'm quite sure I played Mario Forever and thought it was superb!

It seems you are asking for feedback as to whether it is OK to include ad bars along with software. I'd say it is fine as long as you make it perfectly clear to the user exactly what is being included so they can make an informed choice whether they want to try out the software.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
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It sounds like your brother should figure out why he wants to make games. If it's as a way to communicate with users, then the type of game he makes will play a large part in the quality of users that find him. And I don't mean that his games are low-quality, but his chosen genre may not be good for community-building. Does he want to build a strong player community like Caravel, Kaser, Sillysoft, Shrapnel Games, or Spiderweb has? That works a lot better with certain kinds of games--the ones that need a higher commitment and patience to play. And games with level editors or customization features are good for community too.

But there's no dishonor in making a kind of game that attracts annoying users. I suppose he could get a thick skin and resolve himself to not getting much satisfaction from interaction with his players.

Suppose the community goal isn't such a big deal, and mainly he just wants to make some money. Install-bundling and adware make games feel a little cheap and they eat away at your credibility and goodwill. What's wrong with shareware? If I were him, I would yank the install-bundling out of my freeware now to maximize my player base when a shareware title is released. And that is actually what we did, and it worked well. Even if we're not Kings of the World, we're doing a fair amount better than most indie game developers. I have to think that unless your brother is making tens of thousands of dollars on the install-bundling or advertisements that he's just shooting himself in the foot.

I tried to keep ethical issues out of this, but I also have my qualms about corrupting a good game with things that are worthless to or exploitive of the player. I also don't think it was ethical to use the "Mario" trademark and characters unless he licensed them from Nintendo.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
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ErikH2000 wrote:
If I were him, I would yank the install-bundling out of my freeware now to maximize my player base when a shareware title is released. And that is actually what we did,

Hmm. That sounds like we had install-bundling in our freeware, but to be clear: no, we never even considered that. I just meant DROD: Architects' Edition was freeware followed by the shareware release of DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold last year.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Zmann
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Well, from the sound of it, it seems like you think your brother is entitled to something, just because he made a free game.

I thought the whole point of making a free game was for other people to enjoy it, not for you to get personal satisfaction out of it. One statement you made("He lost five years to game making") seems to imply he was doing it against his will. He wasn't. He could have stopped making it at any time.

Now, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve anything or that he didn't have to work hard to make the game. I'm saying that you can't expect everyone (or even anyone) to like your game, just on the basis that the you spent lots of time on it.

That being said, I'm with Larry on this one; I think search toolbars are fine, as long as it's easily removable and it's clearly mentioned when you download / install it. Of course, I do think people have the right to complain, too, because there's plenty of adware free games out there.

And that's a choice every developer has to make for himself. When Erik decided that newer versions of DROD would no longer be freeware, he accepted that there might be some critisism.

I guess my point is, I don't like self-entitlement. Other people are allowed to make the choice if you deserve something or not.

asmussen
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 188
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As long as it is very clear that the searchbar will be installed along with the game, I don't think that is actually unethical to do something like that. However, you have to keep in mind that a lot of people are severely turned off by that sort of practice, myself included. My experience with a game like that would go something like this.

1. 'Hmmm... This game looks interesting. I guess I'll download it and try it out.'
2. Download file
3. Run install program
4. 'Oh. It's going to install IE searchbar...'
5. <Cancel>
6. Delete file

I don't mind a developer trying to make money off of his work, but I would never consider for even a moment allowing something like IE searchbar to live on my system, and I'm not the only person who feels that way. Bundling IE searchbar with the program might be one way of making a few bucks off of his effort, but making the user install spyware along with it (Most spyware removal programs do recognize that particular program as malicious software.) will very likely hurt his reputation. It's also not the only way he can make money off of his games. If there is a demo version of the game and I like it, I don't mind forking over a few dollars for the full version of the game. I have purchased several Indie game titles that way including (Who would have guessed...) DROD.


____________________________
Shawn Asmussen

KevG
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I bought Webfoot DROD. I played the original Caravel DROD. I played AE. I bought JTRH. I've subscribed to the SS CDs. If DROD ever required spyware I would stop playing with out a second thought. I'm with the others that it's not unethical for your brother to ask people to install spyware, but I think it's more likely to bring bad attention to his games than good attention.

However, Mario Forever is a different story. Fan-games that use established characters are already of dubious legality. Making a profit from distributing them is definitely illegal and could easily result in a lawsuit from Nintendo. If this is one of the games he is using IE searchbar with he's taking a huge risk.

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[Last edited by KevG at 03-13-2006 01:18 PM]

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Heres my POV.

i would advise him to remove the IE search bar, because even if it is all spelt out and clear, how can i know that he didn't the next step which is to insert virus's and other stuff as well.

i acutrally think that the business model that Rooster Teeth(the guys who make Red V's Blue) use would be the best option.

they make aviliable the curren season for anyone to download. however, for a small fee, you can be come a 'sponsor', and download higher quality video's, along with a few other nifty features.

the only thing that the free people are missing out on are a few convieneces, thus attracting a large fan base (even if most of them are smacktards).

I would advise you brother to, depending on his purpose, to get in contact with game sites like Gamespy, Game Spot, IGN or any of the others, and tell then about his game, and they might be happy to advertise his game for free (the 'Download this' article on Gamespy is an excellent way), or joining/creating a group(perhaps a mod group) that can better deal with these smacktards/ give the a better focus.

IRT other people, this guy might have thought that if he was to make a free game, he would eventually find employment by a developer, therefore it could be considered work.


Slightly off topic here, but i would also like to say that i was amazed by the level of flexiblity and leaniency of these forums. for example, you wouldn't see a sub forum like this in many places, as it would be filled with spam.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

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I don't play games with adware.

Well, that's not true. I'll try and kill the adware first, and if the game picks it up and refuses to work I don't play it.

I agree that you should be clear about your goals when you begin - if you want to make money with something, you should be honest at the beginning with people that cash is your goal, by selling it. There's plenty of successful models that have worked, and some that haven't been tried, and the negative reaction that many people get with adware (even my Mum knows enough to know that she doesn't want it) should be enough to give your brother pause.

Personally, with the sorts of games you describe, I'd suggest something along the lines of the old Apogee shareware model. Make three to six level packs, and release the first one for free. The rest people have to pony a small amount of money up for. He can even do interesting things if he feels like it - for example, he could keep a count of how much money he's made from each level pack on his website, and release each pack for free once it's made enough. That way, people who really like his work may be motivated to 'unlock' them by donating extra money so other people can enjoy them for free.

Never underestimate the influence of evangelists.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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Five years? Huh.

I wonder if any game makers have ever spent five years of their life producing a game, and not only didn't use copyrighted characters, but came up with their own plot, and didn't add a ton of spyware to make a cheap buck.


Oh, right, Cave Story

And how famous is that guy? Yeah. I'm pretty sure if he said 'I might make a new one if you hand me a few bucks', he'd be deluged in money within minutes.

No, you do not have to support the invasion of people's privacy for the purposes of marketing, use copyrighted characters, just because a couple of idiots play your game. I'm sorry, people not liking your game is in no way justification for adding spyware, much in the same way eating an orange you didn't like is not justification for kicking a puppy. These two things are completely unrelated, and simply saying 'I don't feel it's commercialization' doesn't make it so.

So, he creates really good games for free. Sop he is not taking money from it.

Oddly, if he makes money from it, he makes money from it, which means he makes money from it.

Is he making money? Yes!

Therefore, he is making money from the games! Not difficult!

hasta la vista, mod points

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 03-13-2006 10:19 PM]

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
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Banjooie wrote:
hasta la vista, mod points

Well, be glad we aren't on Slashdot. You'll just end up with -1 or -2, but people will still view your post just fine. Ain't life pretty? (Yeah, so I'm guilty of having modded you up)

I pretty much agree with everything that has been said above. While making money is probably not evil, unless you are part of the Illuminati, the actual means used seems dubious at best. I would also like to add another point, that of actually getting the program to run in the first place.

If his implementation of the search bar is effective, it almost certainly has side-effects for some users (if it isn't effective, everybody and their cousins can bypass the bar and whistle happily). Would it work on previous versions of Windows, in particular the 9x series (or newer versions of Windows, for that matter)? How well does it behave if Internet Explorer has been taken down on the particular Windows installation? Does it work easily when running the program through a compatibility layer or a virtual machine? Does it wreak havoc in the Hall where All Evil Lies (aka the registry)?

There are probably a few other such circumstances that would likely create a similar problem, potentially losing him players in the process, for this particular game and quite possibly future games too. That seems fairly counter-productive to me.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3765
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

larrymurk wrote:
It seems you are asking for feedback as to whether it is OK to include ad bars along with software. I'd say it is fine as long as you make it perfectly clear to the user exactly what is being included so they can make an informed choice whether they want to try out the software.

Well, I haven't installed his "Adwared" games yet. But he says, everything is clear to the user (You must tick two er.... You must tick in two places? sh*t - how can I say this...), so I thing there is no problem...

Zmann wrote:
Well, from the sound of it, it seems like you think your brother is entitled to something, just because he made a free game.

Well I don't mean he is "entitled to something". Rather, that he deserves something better than what he gets already.

Zmann wrote:
I thought the whole point of making a free game was for other people to enjoy it, not for you to get personal satisfaction out of it.

That's what I think. And maybe that's why money is not motiviating me even a bit...

Zmann wrote:
One statement you made("He lost five years to game making") seems to imply he was doing it against his will. He wasn't. He could have stopped making it at any time.

<scratches his head> Um... I don't meant he lost. But I had problems with finding better word...

Zmann wrote:
Now, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve anything or that he didn't have to work hard to make the game. I'm saying that you can't expect everyone (or even anyone) to like your game, just on the basis that the you spent lots of time on it.

I also don't think so. But as I said before, there is too much Unjustified, groundless comments. SOme of them are said only because somebody is Jealousy (The word Envy would work better here, but I don't know how to inflect/conjugate it[?]). Or somebody likes to piss off everybody. But, to say the truth, this mostly happens only on Polish forums, so well...

Zmann wrote:
Of course, I do think people have the right to complain, too, because there's plenty of adware free games out there.

I also agree here. This is alright until the Complaining won't change into insulting...

Zmann wrote:
I guess my point is, I don't like self-entitlement. Other people are allowed to make the choice if you deserve something or not.

<Agrees>

asmussen wrote:
As long as it is very clear that the searchbar will be installed along with the game, I don't think that is actually unethical to do something like that. However, you have to keep in mind that a lot of people are severely turned off by that sort of practice, myself included. My experience with a game like that would go something like this.

1. 'Hmmm... This game looks interesting. I guess I'll download it and try it out.'
2. Download file
3. Run install program
4. 'Oh. It's going to install IE searchbar...'
5. <Cancel>
6. Delete file

Well, from what he says, before even downloading it is clear to user, that he will have to install Ad. to play the game...

asmussen wrote:
If making a few bucks off of his effort, but making the user install spyware along with it (Most spyware removal programs do recognize that particular program as malicious software.) will very likely hurt his reputation.

Well, It is not only "Few Bucks"... Let's just say, he can live peacefully with what he gets now...

asmussen wrote:
It's also not the only way he can make money off of his games. If there is a demo version of the game and I like it, I don't mind forking over a few dollars for the full version of the game.

That's what I think... But in my country it is not very easy to sell, or even buy games from other countries... Um... To be frank, I have never tried to get some more info about it, so this is also what my bro says.

KevG wrote:
However, Mario Forever is a different story. Fan-games that use established characters are already of dubious legality. Making a profit from distributing them is definitely illegal and could easily result in a lawsuit from Nintendo. If this is one of the games he is using IE searchbar with he's taking a huge risk.

Well, this is actually his own problem, and it makes almost no difference for me (Until his loans won't fall on my head
).

NiroZ wrote:
i would advise him to remove the IE search bar, because even if it is all spelt out and clear, how can i know that he didn't the next step which is to insert virus's and other stuff as well.

Me too...

NiroZ wrote:
they make aviliable the curren season for anyone to download. however, for a small fee, you can be come a 'sponsor', and download higher quality video's, along with a few other nifty features.

the only thing that the free people are missing out on are a few convieneces, thus attracting a large fan base (even if most of them are smacktards).

I would advise you brother to, depending on his purpose, to get in contact with game sites like Gamespy, Game Spot, IGN or any of the others, and tell then about his game, and they might be happy to advertise his game for free (the 'Download this' article on Gamespy is an excellent way), or joining/creating a group(perhaps a mod group) that can better deal with these smacktards/ give the a better focus.

Well, if you manage to persuade him such ideas, it would be nice.

Mattcrampy wrote:
Personally, with the sorts of games you describe, I'd suggest something along the lines of the old Apogee shareware model. Make three to six level packs, and release the first one for free. The rest people have to pony a small amount of money up for. He can even do interesting things if he feels like it - for example, he could keep a count of how much money he's made from each level pack on his website, and release each pack for free once it's made enough. That way, people who really like his work may be motivated to 'unlock' them by donating extra money so other people can enjoy them for free.

I like this, but "if you manage to persuade him such ideas, it would be nice."

He is still and still afraid, that his games won't sell, or he only says that.

Banjooie wrote:
No, you do not have to support the invasion of people's privacy for the purposes of marketing, use copyrighted characters, just because a couple of idiots play your game. I'm sorry, people not liking your game is in no way justification for adding spyware, much in the same way eating an orange you didn't like is not justification for kicking a puppy. These two things are completely unrelated, and simply saying 'I don't feel it's commercialization' doesn't make it so.

Mhm. That comparision almost made me fall from chair, but you're right. And I'm not saying this is a reason.

Banjooie wrote:
Oddly, if he makes money from it, he makes money from it, which means he makes money from it.

Is he making money? Yes!

Therefore, he is making money from the games! Not difficult!

I can't agree with you here. He is not making money from games. He gets money from the companies. But... Um, okay, he gets money from his games, but he is not getting money from playing games. He gets money from the adware, and the advertisments. Er... I'm not good enough in English to say what I mean. No matter.

Alneyan wrote:
There are probably a few other such circumstances that would likely create a similar problem, potentially losing him players in the process, for this particular game and quite possibly future games too. That seems fairly counter-productive to me.

Probably, but this is not my business.

ErikH2000 wrote:
It sounds like your brother should figure out why he wants to make games. If it's as a way to communicate with users, then the type of game he makes will play a large part in the quality of users that find him. And I don't mean that his games are low-quality, but his chosen genre may not be good for community-building. Does he want to build a strong player community like Caravel, Kaser, Sillysoft, Shrapnel Games, or Spiderweb has? That works a lot better with certain kinds of games--the ones that need a higher commitment and patience to play. And games with level editors or customization features are good for community too.

Well, I'm afraid he don't have enough patience to "involve" into such things. Besides, I think he would say this is not needed.

ErikH2000 wrote:
But there's no dishonor in making a kind of game that attracts annoying users. I suppose he could get a thick skin and resolve himself to not getting much satisfaction from interaction with his players.

I think this is how it is now...

ErikH2000 wrote:
Suppose the community goal isn't such a big deal, and mainly he just wants to make some money. Install-bundling and adware make games feel a little cheap and they eat away at your credibility and goodwill. What's wrong with shareware? If I were him, I would yank the install-bundling out of my freeware now to maximize my player base when a shareware title is released. And that is actually what we did, and it worked well. Even if we're not Kings of the World, we're doing a fair amount better than most indie game developers. I have to think that unless your brother is making tens of thousands of dollars on the install-bundling or advertisements that he's just shooting himself in the foot.

"if you manage to persuade him such idea, it would be nice."
I've said him thousand of times, that he should just start selling his games. You might know his one game "Bod Blob". Logical game. When I saw what people are saying about this game, I was impressed. Many people (mostly adults) were saying this game is awesome etc, and they continously wanted sequel, or new levels. If I would stake one million dollars, that he would have really big money from selling this game('s?) sequel, I would be a millionaire (I thing, that Erik said something like this before).

ErikH2000 wrote:
I tried to keep ethical issues out of this, but I also have my qualms about corrupting a good game with things that are worthless to or exploitive of the player. I also don't think it was ethical to use the "Mario" trademark and characters unless he licensed them from Nintendo.

-Erik

This is his own problem . And as I said before "It makes almost no difference for me (Until his loans won't fall on my head )." (Am I cold-hearted?)

Oh man, This is really big post. <Yawns> So after adding up everything, most of you guys don't like adware, and any searchbars. I'm also not a fan of such things, but if the game will be good...
And so, I said to him thousand of times "Sell your next games", but he keeps saying, "No, it won't sell well". Um, well. I thing that's all...

Whoa, this is biiiiiiiig .

____________________________
My website

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[Last edited by skell at 03-16-2006 07:36 AM]

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

well if he is worried about his games not selling, why don't you tell him to ask for donations, or pre-orders(with some sort of money-back policy).

why don't you get him to come over to these forums, and get him to speak to us, if you want us to convince him.

NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:

And how famous is that guy? Yeah. I'm pretty sure if he said 'I might make a new one if you hand me a few bucks', he'd be deluged in money within minutes.

Pixel IS making a new game and it's going to be free. He does that as night stuff in addition to his actual job.

On the main topic... I certainly will not willingly download any game with required adware. If this means I can't play a top-10 download.com game, so be it.

That sort of treatment of your player community shouldn't be acceptable; I'm planning to get into independent game development, and I will never put adware or similar tasks into games.

I'd be more tolerant of, say, ads slipped into the game (See: Burnout Revenge having billboards on the tracks, Auto Assault's similar adscheme) to keep it free and profitable, rather than screwing up your customer's PC.

Also, your brother is profiting off Nintendo's works; unless he lives in Japan and can claim it as a Doujin-game, or (less likely) can call it a parody, he will most likely experience lawsuits from Nintendo for this.

I would recommend the following model to him.

1) Immediately and no exceptions, any games where his content is not EXCLUSIVELY his own, get rid of ALL adware and sources of profit, and make it free.
2) Other games should follow the traditional shareware model; it's LONG proven, and he clearly has an established fanbase who would gladly pay for the games.
3) To increase profitability, he could create something similar to the CaravelNet model: subscriptions for extra content.
4, and most significantly) Remember the creed of good independent game makers everywhere: If you make it good, and they know about it, they will come.

____________________________
The secret to using a sword is that you hit people with the sharp end and then they die.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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Pixel IS making a new game and it's going to be free. He does that as night stuff in addition to his actual job.

Whoa, seriously? I remember him saying in an interview something to the effect of 'oh god no'.

NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
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Banjooie wrote:

Pixel IS making a new game and it's going to be free. He does that as night stuff in addition to his actual job.

Whoa, seriously? I remember him saying in an interview something to the effect of 'oh god no'.

The doukutsu livejournal community is keeping track of a translation of his development diary every so often. He's going it slow just like he did with Doukutsu Monogatari (Cave Story), with the occasional burst.

The only thing I need before I'll be able to start making simplistic games myself is graphical interfaces...

EDIT: To keep on topic.

To be fair, most of the DROD community is strong techie nerds who have a natural hatred of things that even somewhat stand to slow our precious compies down. Others might be a little more tolerant of adware.

Another idea for your brother is to try somethign similar to Opera - have some sort of integrated ads in the game, in a non-obtrusive but very 'there' form (Google ads along the bottom). Make sure that when you leave the game window, it pauses. Less annoying, less system-draining, and still pretty damn profitable.

____________________________
The secret to using a sword is that you hit people with the sharp end and then they die.

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[Last edited by NekoIncardine at 03-16-2006 11:01 PM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
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He is still and still afraid, that his games won't sell, or he only says that.

The beauty of the Apogee model is that you know that some people will buy your game if you get a lot of people downloading the first installment. If they enjoy that game and have some money, they'll buy the second installment.

If they don't, they're either not enjoying the game, broke, or don't have a way of handing any money over, all of which are solvable.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
If they don't, they're either not enjoying the game, broke, or don't have a way of handing any money over, all of which are solvable.

and how do you solve handing any money over, without spending more money?

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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Mattcrampy wrote:
If they don't, they're either not enjoying the game, broke, or don't have a way of handing any money over, all of which are solvable.

How do you fix them being broke?

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Banjooie wrote:
How do you fix them being broke?

Give them money. Duh

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
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I liked the model used by Kingdom of Loathing
(I haven't played it in years so it may have changed by now, but as I recall

they have a game which is perfectly free to play, but you can buy (actually kind of minor) advantage item(s) in the game for money. or not.

(admittedly, this works because they have a client/server model)


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Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Because you all asked:

Me, earlier, wrote:
If they don't, they're either not enjoying the game,

Make the game more enjoyable, taking people's criticisms on board. Smooth out the rough edges.

broke,

There's lots of things you can do with pricing, and a certain percentage of your players will probably be cashed up, so leverage them instead of your poorer customers.

or don't have a way of handing any money over, all of which are solvable.

Payment people are all over the damn place, and anyone can get a bank cheque.

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What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 03-21-2006 09:55 AM]

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
IP: Logged

ADDITION: I just looked at the forums on the Burziol Games site, and Skell is an administrator on the boards. I'm honestly not sure how much significance that has, but its an interesting fact, for sure.
END ADDITION.

skell wrote:
Well, from what he says, before even downloading it is clear to user, that he will have to install Ad. to play the game...

I just took a look at his website, and this claim is simply untrue. There is no warning about adware for ANY of his games, prior to download.

I decided to give him some benefit of the doubt here, and downloaded Myster Muszel anyway. It DOES give a warning prior to install. BUT identifies the adware installed only as the 'myster muszel toolbar' and gives dead links to its FAQ and Privacy Policy.

(Picture of the adware notice screen)


Now, in normal circumstances this would be a complete dealbreaker. Something installing say Google Toolbar, I'd consider, but a mystery toolbar, no thanks.

EDIT: The following screen identifies the toolbar as from Candeo, and includes a copy of the Toolbar EULA/Privacy statement, which I copied here, in segments. Note that each segment is rather long.

Use and uninstallation



Privacy Section

Authority, Rights, Amendment

Export, Ownership, Content

The lovely fact that this is a self-updating product but supposedly does not update silently without permission.

Disclaimer, etc


I'm going to install anyway. But after testing, I'm going to uninstall without using the toolbar, to ensure he sees no profit from it. And I'm going to take a couple screencaps as I play. Followup soon.

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"Now I will repeatedly apply the happy-face rule"

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[Last edited by Beef Row at 03-24-2006 10:17 PM]

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
IP: Logged

And now the followup:

1. After installing the Toolbar never actually manifested itself, but was listed as loaded in the Manage Add-ons section of IE. This suggests either it didn't work, or was doing something behind the scenes other than functioning as a toolbar.

2. Adaware reported 107 'critical' objects after the install. However, all were tracking cookies. Apparently this program is too little known to be detected.

3. The game itself requested internet access whenever it was loaded. Since I set my firewall to block it, I can't say for wat purpose (IE: it could be as innocent as high score collection, I see Mario Forever had such a feature.)

4. The game was a very mediocre platformer. If I had cared enough to get further, I understand there were more interesting enemies (primarily turret types), but here's a sample screenshot. The stone blocks die if you jump on their heads.



5. While this isn't so relevant, the help for the game is a seperate, app that isn't mentioned, only plunked on your desktop and in the game folder. This is quite lame.

6. Uninstalling the game appears to have removed the toolbar succesfully, though its lack of functionality makes this harder to verify.

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"Now I will repeatedly apply the happy-face rule"