zex20913
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What if DROD had a Master Quest type of thing, like Zelda? Only, instead of changing the levels, change the order of movement. Make the monsters move first, then Beethro. So now Beethro would have to anticipate where they will be, and not see. This would be a very interesting challenge, and I don't think any of the rooms would become unsolvable. It may look weird, and goblins would be EXTREMELY HARD but possible.

[Edited by zex20913 on 08-09-2003 at 03:10 AM GMT: title change.]

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Malarame
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Monsters moving before Beethro? Wow, that sounds scary. I wonder how well it would play out? Also, you have to remember that Beethro can\'t move onto a square occupied by a monster. If you try to move into an empty square but a roach decides he also wants to move there, you won\'t get in. That could make things very interesting. Incidently, what\'s the Master Quest in Zelda? I never played that game.

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eytanz
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That\'s an interesting idea... But I do think some of the current rooms will become impossible; at the very least, there are those rooms where some sections require specific movement sequences - those may have a solution, but that\'s not guarunteed. Also, all the rooms which are tightly timed may have to be reworked.

I think this would work nicely, though, as a new brain-like monster, whose presence in the room changes the movement order. That way, it could be included in rooms designed for the purpose, without making anything impossible (and you could have the added puzzle of rooms which need you to kill the \"movement brain\" at a certain point - lets say it\'s vulnerable from the start but you need it for some of the room to be solvable, etc.)

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zex20913
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Malarame wrote:
Incidently, what\'s the Master Quest in Zelda? I never played that game.

Master Quest is the remixed version of Ocarina of Time. It\'s on the Gamecube, and you get it if you preorder the new Zelda coming out. Only the dungeons have changed, and I\'ve only seen/played the first one, but even the Deku Tree took about an hour or so and normally it takes me twenty-thirty mins. It\'s some good stuff.

Also, all of the rooms would *probably* remain the same. I don\'t think that there are any *exact* timing rooms, meaning there\'s always 1-2 moves of leeway. Also, for levels like #21, the roaches would still not move onto the sword, so there would be an empty space where they should be normally. Then again, I have no clue how hard it would be to program this...but it would be interesting.

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Sokko
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I very much like that idea about a \"movement brain\". You could have a whole bunch of different brains that change the way monsters move, or even brains that make the monsters move two spaces in one turn (that would be scary!)

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Schik
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And on the other side of the spectrum, a couple or three new potions:

- Scaredy-cat potion - makes enemies run away from you for X turns
- Freeze potion - freezes enemies for X turns
- Slow-motion potion - slows enemies to 1/2 speed for X turns

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mrimer
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Hmm... Wouldn\'t monsters moving first just mean that when you enter the room the monsters go first, and then they have to wait for you to move in order to move again (like usual)?

Or, do you have in mind that when you make a move, the monsters go first and then you go at the same time? That *would* be hard to get used to!

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zex20913
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The latter. The monsters would move first, but only after you move. When you enter the room, they are in the original positions. (Possibly in shock that somebody would dare enter their lair.)

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Malarame
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I was thinking that maybe there should be an option to turn this feature on and off. Of course, someone (*cough*Clayton*cough*) would have to rock-hop through the game to see if any rooms are unbeatable.

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ErikH2000
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Malarame wrote:
I was thinking that maybe there should be an option to turn this feature on and off. Of course, someone (*cough*Clayton*cough*) would have to rock-hop through the game to see if any rooms are unbeatable.

Oh, believe me, it would make many many rooms unbeatable. But still we should have Clayton slave through them all. And then change it a little and have him run through all the rooms again. He don\'t mind!

You know, I feel like some kind of jerk for saying this, but I don\'t really like these kinds of changes. Whenever the feature is something that affects everything in the game, it takes forever to code and fix all the resulting bugs. Give you guys some examples:

HARD: Add a potion that gives all monsters ability to jump over pits.
EASY: Add a new monster that can jump over pits.

HARD: Make an option that will let Beethro take two turns for every one turn a monster takes.
EASY: Add some new monsters that move one square every other turn.

Another peeve about software design: Whenever you get a group of people together to talk about what should go into software, a controversial feature will come up. And it goes like this:

BUBBA: Hey guys! I had a dream while I was sleeping at my desk. MegaDROD 5000 should have a stock ticker on the game screen. What do you think?
AMOS: Well, that sounds interesting. We should think about that. Hmmm.
ERIK: But who cares about stocks when you are playing MegaDROD 5000? And couldn\'t you just run a separate stock ticker program?
BUBBA: I know that I would DEFINITELY like to have both right in front of me at the same time. And I think our users would too.
ERIK: I don\'t want that on my screen. Just the game should be on the screen! Don\'t clutter my screen up with this crap!
AMOS: Well, I can see both sides. I know... we can put it in as an option, and you can turn it on if you want it. Or turn it off if you don\'t.
BUBBA: That would make me happy!
ERIK: ***phruckin phrickin fruthead***
AMOS: What was that?

The cost of adding options is not just the development time for adding the feature, but the extra testing time (Test everything with the feature enabled. Then test everything with the feature disabled.) and the added complexity in the code that makes it harder for programmers to maintain down the line. For the end user, the option-choosing interface becomes more complicated. (For example, if we add any more options to the \"Settings\" screen in DROD, we will need to split it into multiple screens.) So an option really has to prove itself to me before I consider adding it to the game. Too often, options go into products because people in meetings try to please everyone instead of using criticism where it is needed.

Jeezus, I am way overdoing it here. Think of this as a general rant about a problem I\'ve observed in my career, not just in response to this topic. Nobody has said anything I take offense to, and you could say all the same stuff again and it wouldn\'t bug me. Just letting you know where my biases lay.

-Erik

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Schik
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You know what would be cool? If DROD were a little more like Tetris! Yeah! And you know what? The other day, I was playing DROD and didn\'t even notice that it was snowing really hard outside. Maybe DROD could hook into weather.com to let you know if there\'s a storm or something.

And the sword is nice and all, but I think Beethro needs a shotgun. And a rocket launcher.

Also, I think it should be MegaDROD 3000. I just don\'t think we\'re at a 5000 level yet.

<Schik ducks for cover>



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ErikH2000
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Schik wrote:
You know what would be cool?

...

Okay, put it in like this:

#ifdef THAT_CRAP_SCHIK_WANTED
blah blah blah
#endif

Sorry, folks. Will try to keep coder jokes to a minimum.

-Erik


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Malarame
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I didn\'t think I was really a coder, but I got that joke you just posted Erik, so now I\'m confused.

Anyway, I see what you mean about adding new options. It would make things much much harder for the coders. You know, I\'ve never really thought about this much before, but it seems that the people who give ideas never put any thought into how hard the idea would be in implement. Think about it people, who here would want Erik to spend countless sleepless nights tearing out his hair trying to get someone\'s idea to work? Don\'t get me wrong, I think everyone should keep submitting ideas, but I for one am going to start thinking about how hard an idea would be to code. I do have experience coding, but I decided not to persue a career in programming after I spent a summer as an intern programming for a large company. I didn\'t like the fact that people who knew nothing about coding kept telling me to \"add this and change that and rewrite Windows while you\'re at it and have it done by tomarrow\".

And Schik, I like the idea about hooking DROD into weather.com, but how about adding a feature that would change the weather? Now that would be useful!

[Edited by Malarame on 03-06-2003 at 03:33 PM GMT]

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ErikH2000
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Malarame wrote:
I didn\'t think I was really a coder, but I got that joke you just posted Erik, so now I\'m confused.

Well, you know some VB and C and C++, so I would say you are a coder, coder.
...

Anyway, I see what you mean about adding new options. It would make things much much harder for the coders. You know, I\'ve never really thought about this much before, but it seems that the people who give ideas never put any thought into how hard the idea would be in implement.

...
Seriously, it\'s not a problem for people to come up with ideas that are hard to write. I wouldn\'t expect people to know which ones were. I appreciate that people try to think of stuff to put into the game and just wanted to provide a clue as to what we are more likely to add. I don\'t feel obliged to code up everybody\'s idea, so those happy ideamakers can brainstorm away without worrying about me. Also, who\'s to say that somebody doesn\'t make a cool DROD variant with features not found in Caravel DROD.

And then there was my foul-spirited rant about option-itis. This wasn\'t directed at anyone in particular and wasn\'t tremendously relevant. Just thought I\'d serve you all up a beefy slab of the truth as I see it.

I do have experience coding, but I decided not to persue a career in programming after I spent a summer as an intern programming for a large company. I didn\'t like the fact that people who knew nothing about coding kept telling me to \"add this and change that and rewrite Windows while you\'re at it and have it done by tomarrow\".

Heh. That\'s how it often goes. Especially when you\'re the new guy. With your own projects, thankfully you reserve the right to include and exclude to your heart\'s content.

-Erik

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Sokko
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Seriously though, if Erik starts tearing his hair out because of a feature one of us suggested, he should probably stop and not do it at all. (either that or he should do it anyway, but make us feel guilty in some way

Personally I think that having a \"movement brain\" as opposed to an option or setting has a lot more puzzle-creating potential.

And I think that monster that jumps over pits is pretty cool. You know, sort of like a wraithwing, but it can only \"jump\" over a certain number of pit tiles in a row, and in one direction (because you can\'t change direction in mid-air, obviously). Actually that might involve some looking-ahead routines to see whether the expanse of pit ahead is short enough to jump over, but you did say it would be easy...

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zex20913
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Sorry, but I know absolutely nothing about coding. I\'ll keep coming up with strange ideas though. (Silly me, I thought one could just copy and paste for a movement change code. Guess not.) And I really don\'t think that too many rooms would be unsolvable. I.E. for snakes, you would be able to *step on the tails* because it would be gone by the time Beethro got there. I still don\'t know about goblins though...those may be the rooms you fret about.

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